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[thetitan99]

ScienceGuy, on 2009-12-03 18:18:41, said:

<sarcasm>Hey great! I'm so glad Thailand is becoming more like the country I escaped from. At my weight, I'd be classified as a drunken murderer after 2 drinks(BAC=0.05%), be fined, and go to jail. Hey why not make it 0.01% and catch anybody who has any alcohol in their system whatsoever?

Ever since I came to Thailand I've noticed an increasingly imposing legal system. No beer sales at certain times... Fines for smoking in places, bars closing early, helmet laws, etc.

It seems like all the people who ruined the US with their laws have come to Thailand to do the same. They enjoyed the freedom to drive drunk, stay out all night, etc. and now they are making it a crime.

I guess it won't be long before everything is illegal, there's a cop on every corner, and cameras in every soi. Way to go Abhisit et al! Thanks for bringing the NWO to Thailand.

</sarcasm>

I agree completely.  Since when do more laws constitute better quality of life?  I went back to the U.S. a few years ago and everyone is afraid to scratch their ass.  You have more freedom and privacy in Stalinist Soviet Union.  Drunk driving kills a lot of people, but does anyone seriously see this going anywhere except as another bribe opportunity for the cops?  Get real...

As long as the police are paid the laughable joke of a wage they are now, all laws in Thailand are a joke.  In this case, the more is definitely not the better!!!

[12DrinkMore]

Tigs, on 2009-12-03 23:56:01, said:

12drinkmore

I repeat my post 59 after you asked the question last time

Quote

2M baht would be about right. The cost is determined by many factors, including total police and emergency time spent dealing with RTA's, the cost of 'productivity' and 'tax 'to the country, in many cases medical bills etc etc etc. The price of a death in the UK is about £5M per person, no sh*t.

Anyway as maths is not the strong point here then one solution to get an ambitious politician to call a stop to the whole thing is to give them the following Fact! Did you know that in the UK and USA approximately 33% of all road accidents are caused by drunk drivers! That means that 67% of road accidents are caused by sober ones! Therefore get everyone to drive drunk and you will cut down the accident rate by 67%! Lies Lies and dam_n statistics!

Do you get it?

The cost in any country of providing emergency services for a particular problem, divided by the number of accidents or deaths will give the starting point for the calculation. So if providing Road Traffic Police cost $1 Billion and there were 1000 deaths on the roads in the year, the starting cost per death will be $1 million. The Road Traffic police are there to provide safety and prevent accidents and fatalities on the road. It cost in the example $1 Billion a year, but easy to say $1 million per death or $10 000 per accident etc etc. The sums of money involved are vast. You cannot estimate the cost of travel to the hospital at say $10 per trip. If the ambulance only goes to two emergencies per day, you have still had to pay for two crew for 24 hours, fuel, holidays, pensions, vehicle and crew insurance blah blah blah. It is £5 Million per death in the UK!

you also say

"There is no way that a road accident death will cost ON AVERAGE 5 million Dollars in CASH that HAS TO BE PAID. A ridiculous notion".

Why the shouting? Nobody has said it is cash that has to be paid. Where did that come from?

There is a serious accounting problem with that logic.

The fixed costs of providing policing/hospital services etc have to be separated from the variable costs of a single accident. Only then can any sense be made of the numbers.

As we are agreed that the fixed costs vastly outweigh the variable costs, then logically to bring down the cost per accident we need a lot more accidents. Or perversely, if the authorities were hugely successful and reduced the number of accidents to 1, then this single accident would have cost, in Thailand, the 240,000,000,000 Baht.

Anyway, back to the UK

Here are some figures I found, fewer deaths at 3,000 but more accidents at 267,000.

http://www.mycarchec...llion-per-year/

However, this works out at just 30,000 Quid or 1,500,000 Baht per accident in the UK. And taking the total the 8 Billion Quid that it cost in 2007 is roughly twice what the Thais reckon it cost Thailand. Which, taking into account the cost of wages/infrastructure in Thailand seems disproportionately high.

So where on earth did the figure of 5,000,000 Quid per death come from? Even if we leave out the non fatal accidents and use the whole 8 Billion Quid for just the deaths, this works out at 2.7 million/road death.

My point being that the figures quoted, and indeed those from Norway and the UK, are misrepresenting the true variable costs of one additional accident. And if you can give me a couple of pointers to where the 5 million figures came from, please post them, as I have a bit of time on my hands today and this sound like an interesting topic to delve into.

[Bottlerocket]

According to the Global Road Safety Partnership, almost 1.2 million people are killed and 20 to 50 million injured or disabled in car accidents every year, with 85 percent of the deaths occurring in developing and transitional countries.

The Asia-Pacific region, which accounts for about 16 percent of the motor vehicles worldwide, is the site of 44 percent of all traffic deaths. China, with 71,495 deaths, and India, with 59,927 deaths, had the most traffic fatalities in the world in 1995. The rate of deaths to crashes is 2,000 for every 10,000 in Kenya and 3,000 for every 10,000 in Vietnam.

In developing countries, the costs of motor vehicle accidents represent three to five percent of the GDP. The estimated yearly cost of motor vehicle accidents in developing countries exceeds US$100 billion.

The following is data from the Global Road Safety Partnership:

Road Safety Situation

According to official statistics (police), 12,858 people were killed in road crashes in 2005. However the real number might even be higher. According to documentation from the health sector, the real death toll could be 20,000 or more if victims who die after being removed from the crash scene are included.

The primary causes of road crashes are the dangerous mix of motorcyclists and larger vehicles, alcohol impaired driving, and excessive speed. Many road deaths happen during the two national holidays: New Year (6 days) December/January and Songkran (9 days) in April.

In 2005 the road fatality rate were 20.6/105 population and 5.09/104 vehicles.
According to Thailand’s crash records, the main features of the country’s road crash and injury problem are:

    * The working adult age group (25-59 years) represents the majority of those dying in road crashes (over 50%) followed by young people aged 15-24 years who account for 29% of the total fatalities.
    * Many deaths occur during 2 holiday periods, New Year and Songkran.
    * 45% of deaths in 2004 occurred on the national highways, half of them involving motorcycles
    * 44% of the total number of road crash injuries in Thailand occur in Bangkok compared with only 6% of the country’s fatalities    
    * In average less than 17% of all injured used seat belts and less than 15% used crash helmets. Numbers are higher in Bangkok where enforcement is stricter
    * Of all injured: 75% are male
    * The Police identified excessive speed as the most common cause of crashes followed by unsafe passing and illegal overtaking
    * In Khon Kaen Province (Northern Thailand), 81 % of total injured patients admitted to hospitals in 2002 were motorcycle injury victims. It is believed that this is likely to reflect the situation in other provinces too
    * Hospital data indicates that over half of injured drivers and riders had been drinking alcohol

While the actual statistics should be treated with some caution due to possible under-reporting, analyses indicate the primary causes of road crashes: excessive speed involving mixed traffic (also vulnerable road users), drinking and driving, dangerous overtaking and the poor use of helmets.

In 2007, the Road Safety on 4 Continents conference will be held in Bangkok.

[needforspeed]

ericthai, on 2009-12-04 01:47:39, said:

cloudhopper, on 2009-12-03 18:37:39, said:

As if not having a license would ever stop anyone from driving here.

hel_l, it dont stop repeat offender's in the USA.  I read all the time of guys being arrested for the 4 or 5th time for drinking and driving, in which they dont have a license, so there is no way it will stop a drinker that wants to drive in Thailand. Also, 5K upto 20K, this is really cheap.  My cousin was a arrested for drinking and driving, his lawyer fee was more than this, then court costs, school, getting his car out of impound etc, cost him over $5000 USD, made him think twice about driving and drinking again.

Doesn't stop people from drinking and driving but in Thailand they make a law but don't inforce the law and worse the  law enforcers are open for any way driving around the regulations as long as you pay.
And that isnt the same in the USA or Europe.

[transam]

Spoonman, on 2009-12-03 17:22:55, said:

So if I get pinched i'll only be looking at a fine of between 5k and 20k and a loss of licence, awesome........

In reality though, I bet if i get caught it will cost me significantly more.

I recently went to police station with a Thai friend who got nicked for drink driving, they told him that if it were me (the farrang) that got nicked for DUI l would be sent back to UK. Whether he was in authority or putting the frightners on, don't know  So be careful out there.

[junglist]

Next there going to want a blood sample and maybe an up to date copy of how much money you have in the bank. This will help them decide if they should let you go or raise the fine.

[kiwikoppy]

fire and ice, on 2009-12-03 17:56:51, said:

Quote

"The casualties from road accident in their jurisdiction is even higher than robberies or other crimes," Pol MajGeneral Anuchai Lekbamrung told the seminar.

What kind of stupid statement is this?

That's like saying "In Italy even more people speak Italian than English". As if its some kind of surprising fact.

Of course more people die or are injured in road accidents than other crimes! That's normal anywhere.

Even in nations with the safest roads the chances of a casualty in a road accident is about 1,000 times more likely than casualties from other crimes".

Talk about stating the bleeding obvious.

what they mean is casualties in road accidents is higher then the amount of any other crimes (not casualties in other crimes, just the crimes itself.)

it was written a little wrong, but you could have guest it right

[England01]

my advice is to wave 5k at them on the scene...if your sober enought to find it !!!

beer prices to be reduced.....yum yum ;-)

[Agincourt]

Spoonman, on 2009-12-03 17:22:55, said:

So if I get pinched i'll only be looking at a fine of between 5k and 20k and a loss of licence, awesome........

In reality though, I bet if i get caught it will cost me significantly more.

Why would you be so stupid to Drink and Drive anyway?

[transam]

England01, on 2009-12-04 12:36:33, said:

my advice is to wave 5k at them on the scene...if your sober enought to find it !!!

beer prices to be reduced.....yum yum ;-)

We were stopped at a road block testing for drink drive. Thai driver, me and a Swedish guy. She tested pos, so the cop asked for 10k, she said no, to much (drunk). Off she went to jail, big fine, lost her license and monitored by the law for a year with her having to go to law offices every month.

[kurtgruen]

Spoonman, on 2009-12-03 17:22:55, said:

So if I get pinched i'll only be looking at a fine of between 5k and 20k and a loss of licence, awesome........

In reality though, I bet if i get caught it will cost me significantly more.

I'll guess it's time to move to a more liberal country, if I ever loose my license in Thailand.  
I like the roads and traffic in Thailand, a lot more common sense than back home :-)  I really don't want this to turn into another America or Europe.  
We all die sooner or later...might as well have fun along the way ;-)

[asiawatcher]

With the stipend set between 5k and 20k it is only a matter of how much extra the brown shirts will negotiate on the way to the lock up before putting the drunk driver in a taxi to their home.  Still - the lesson will be learned and drunks will be gradually removed as has happened to a great extent in the West.  Taxi's at 1,000 Baht all night to follow drinkers is still far cheaper than the fine or the license loss.  But then again, Thai's, Mekong - they drink cheaply and don't have the funds to pay the fines so there will be an increase in jails - substantial - unfortunately.

[asiawatcher]

Bottlerocket, on 2009-12-04 10:44:36, said:

According to the Global Road Safety Partnership, almost 1.2 million people are killed and 20 to 50 million injured or disabled in car accidents every year, with 85 percent of the deaths occurring in developing and transitional countries.

The Asia-Pacific region, which accounts for about 16 percent of the motor vehicles worldwide, is the site of 44 percent of all traffic deaths. China, with 71,495 deaths, and India, with 59,927 deaths, had the most traffic fatalities in the world in 1995. The rate of deaths to crashes is 2,000 for every 10,000 in Kenya and 3,000 for every 10,000 in Vietnam.

In developing countries, the costs of motor vehicle accidents represent three to five percent of the GDP. The estimated yearly cost of motor vehicle accidents in developing countries exceeds US$100 billion.

The following is data from the Global Road Safety Partnership:

Road Safety Situation

According to official statistics (police), 12,858 people were killed in road crashes in 2005. However the real number might even be higher. According to documentation from the health sector, the real death toll could be 20,000 or more if victims who die after being removed from the crash scene are included.

The primary causes of road crashes are the dangerous mix of motorcyclists and larger vehicles, alcohol impaired driving, and excessive speed. Many road deaths happen during the two national holidays: New Year (6 days) December/January and Songkran (9 days) in April.

In 2005 the road fatality rate were 20.6/105 population and 5.09/104 vehicles.
According to Thailand’s crash records, the main features of the country’s road crash and injury problem are:

    * The working adult age group (25-59 years) represents the majority of those dying in road crashes (over 50%) followed by young people aged 15-24 years who account for 29% of the total fatalities.
    * Many deaths occur during 2 holiday periods, New Year and Songkran.
    * 45% of deaths in 2004 occurred on the national highways, half of them involving motorcycles
    * 44% of the total number of road crash injuries in Thailand occur in Bangkok compared with only 6% of the country’s fatalities    
    * In average less than 17% of all injured used seat belts and less than 15% used crash helmets. Numbers are higher in Bangkok where enforcement is stricter
    * Of all injured: 75% are male
    * The Police identified excessive speed as the most common cause of crashes followed by unsafe passing and illegal overtaking
    * In Khon Kaen Province (Northern Thailand), 81 % of total injured patients admitted to hospitals in 2002 were motorcycle injury victims. It is believed that this is likely to reflect the situation in other provinces too
    * Hospital data indicates that over half of injured drivers and riders had been drinking alcohol

While the actual statistics should be treated with some caution due to possible under-reporting, analyses indicate the primary causes of road crashes: excessive speed involving mixed traffic (also vulnerable road users), drinking and driving, dangerous overtaking and the poor use of helmets.

In 2007, the Road Safety on 4 Continents conference will be held in Bangkok.

Is there nothing more recent available?  Interesting report at any rate - what happened at the 2007 conference - any stats on that?

[HowardV]

As I see it, Westerners come from younger civilizations which have not yet reached the point of community upbringing that most Asian societies have.  For this reason our approach to law and rule is vital to maintaining order and we have a hard time understanding the disregard for rules and the high level of corruption that exists in Thailand.  

Our very definition of order is different -- it's found in conformity to rule of law.  For Thais, order is in preserving relationships of community and family.  

Corruption is a much more serious deal to us than it is to Thais.  Corruption as we see it is, in many instances, often merely a form of negotiation to the Thais.  We fail to realize that we are hardwired differently with different goals driving our motives.  In Thailand, if you can arrive at an agreeable conclusion you don't have to refer to the written rules, they are only there to serve as guidelines for keeping order--that is, harmony--in the relationships of community and family.  

It's like a teacher or a judge who waives a penalty or a fine in an exceptional case, only Thais take it upon themselves to do this on an individual level.  The average cop understands family amongst his own people and sees that a 20,000 baht fine would ruin the average drunken Thai driver.  Once the guy goes into the system, that cop knows he stands to lose a lot of money.  He finds a way to teach the guy a lesson without taking all his money, but he might still take some -- enough to make sure the drunken driver will learn something from the experience.  But what to do with the money?  He can't give part of it, he can't report it, so he keeps it and rationalizes that it's just a part of the job -- he's helping the guy and the guy's helping him.  

Yes it is totally jacked to us, but we aren't keyed into the concept of community upbringing the way that most Asians are.  We are far more independent, and we rely on upon principles rather than relationships to define right and wrong.  To us, if it's wrong it's wrong, and we should pay.  But not everyone can pay the same amount even though all might be guilty of the same wrongs.  

It's in this attitude amongst the Thais through which corruption finds its way into the society.  Apparently this dates back to the patron-client society, where noblemen would receive grants and gifts for favors done under the authority of the monarchy.  They weren't paid, so it was normal practice to give gifts or grants in exchange for their help.  This has carried on into the modern Thai society -- it is corruption by our definition but common practice in a society whose goal is not conformity to rules, but preserving harmonious relationships in community and family.

[christcourt]

cinbkk, on 2009-12-03 18:59:59, said:

"The law will be strictly enforced during the holiday period." So, what happens at other times?

And I can't yet work out what 3 times cheaper means....

Nar!!!!!!! I can't figure it out either .

[christcourt]

metisdead, on 2009-12-03 19:07:53, said:

Chris Lawrence, on 2009-12-03 17:49:26, said:

Enforce the helmet law. A lot of head injuries are more than likely in those figures. See so many people just coming off their bikes.

Yesterday when I left my mooban, there were 2 police on a motorbike, they were headed the same way as me, once out on the main road 2 motorbikes, drivers not wearing helmets, passed right by the police and they didn't even bat any eye. Apparently the police only enforce the helmet law at check points only?

Yep!! That's right this sort of thing is normal if you go out side in the rurals of Thailand. Why? Maybe off duty, going to clock on, or going home, or to the bank to put their "tea money"in, But you never see them act alone but then again I don't blame them either as they might get run over etc etc.

[JimShortz]

Sherlocke, on 2009-12-04 10:17:23, said:

No one is in favour od DD!

That's clearly not true. Didn't you read all of the earlier posts?

I am not in favour of obviously drunk people driving, but do I want the stringent western laws where I can't have a couple of beers and ride my motorbike home (in a perfectly safe manner, in my opinion)? I certainly don't. If I want my whole life tied up in nanny state laws I'll head to the UK or perhaps the USA... neither of which I have any intention of doing!

IMHO starting out with education would be a better option than changing laws that are never enforced anyway. How about really teaching people to drive properly for a start? How about an advertising campaign that piles on the guilt and makes drink driving antisocial? Pressure from peers might actually have some effect...

Anyway, more importantly - CHEAP BEER IS COMING. Hoorah!  

[leebeeUK]

mmm, we'll see...

Edited by leebeeUK, 2009-12-04 16:09:54.

[reallyok]

Mitker, on 2009-12-03 17:59:46, said:

my crackdown counter just melted..
but let's rather bet on how long this one will last. My bet: around 3 weeks.
But sincerely support the move if serious. Better late than never.

crack down on this .......crack down on that !
Thank goodness for the occaisional "crack up"........lolololol. it makes everything worthwile suffering for.

[Thomas1983]

mahtin, on 2009-12-03 17:16:13, said:

Naturally I'm all for this.

Nor can I hide my interest in liquor becoming 3X cheaper

I bet you that this is not going to work well, the kids with the dads and cash will just pay the cop 500B. and ........off they go...free

[selftaopath]

PhilHarries, on 2009-12-03 17:19:17, said:

I would love this to be the true face of the law but unfortunately money can, will and always has talked.

Also, what equipment are the BiB being provided with to enforce this ruling which is not new but just another of Thailand's unenforced laws.

Oh how I wish I could believe this to be true. Most of us however realize, in Lack of Sanctions (LOS),  what is said/written is much different than what is enforced.  It is rather shocking to see motorcycle taxi riders sitting drinking whiskey while waiting for customers.  Sad how corruption negatively impacts so many honest Thai people.

[Thomas1983]

they should enforce corruption first and up the salary of the bull's to gain loyalt so the cop's refuse bribes, and tham you can enforce all sorts of traffic crimes... what do you say?

[asfscott]

splodger, on 2009-12-03 17:58:39, said:

crazyal, on 2009-12-03 18:53:59, said:

i totally agree on strict laws for drunk driving. maybe now i won't drink and drive anymore....

i just won't drive

Just don't drive!! That is the ticket!!

FINALLY!!!! Are the Thais getting some common sense!!!!???? Blaming the PERSON and not the booze??

I say NAIL anyone with massive fines and jail time who is caught driving drunk here!! More power to this!!
Not only that, but crucify ANYONE who causes death or injury when they are responsible when driving drunk like they do in other countries now. At least 20 year jail terms and they have to pay and support the surviving members of the family who's family member they killed.

There is NO EXCUSE for this in Thailand as we have such affordable transportation and taxis on
every street ready to take us home if we have had a few too many.

Do not blame the masses for this!!
Does not anyone find the completely pathetic law about selling alcohol between 11am and 2pm, then from 5pm on a fringing JOKE!!!?? This is just monkey logic!!
The mom and pop stores LOVE this law on every little sub soi!!

How about:
Don't sell to alcohol to minors (massive fines for stores caught selling to minors)
Deny selling alcohol to drunken idiots

Don't deny and cause such inconveniences for the responsible masses!!!

Good to see they are actually blaming the PERSON who decides to make the wrong choices.

The logic and thinking of restricting access to alcohol for everyone during the time of day because some morons or under age Thais will get drunk at that time during the day is completely STUPID!!

[BlueSmurf]

Its started in Chiang Rai too.Last night I got stopeed at 9.45pm near Den Ha. Nice policeman said where had I been.To eat I said and he wished me goodnight.I asked why they were stopping nearly everyone and he replied ALCOHOL!!!! Yes I had had a couple with my meal. Time to move house close to the bar.

[AjarnMartin]

mahtin, on 2009-12-03 17:16:13, said:

Naturally I'm all for this.

Nor can I hide my interest in liquor becoming 3X cheaper

I'm all for it providing it applies to Thai drivers...   ...but it probably won't...