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[pkrv]

Over the years there has been a great deal of interest in the condominium act, and definition of a condominium and indeed some of the terms and issues associated with condominiums.

The Mods have kindly offered to pin a thread on this subject; I personally think this would be great for all of us condominium owners. Did you know there appear to be about 50,000 Farang owned units in Bangkok alone?

http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/Condominium-Rights-in-Thailand.php

There have also been many, many THAIVISA threads on this subject for example

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Condominium-Act-t114865.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Condo-Means-Flat-apartment-room-t267474.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Condo-Act-Amendments-Voting-Clari-t255179.html

These cover issues from the Condominium Act itself to voting in Juristic and What a Condominium actually is.

Unfortunately they sort of fall off of top pages and newbies don't get to see this info. This is an attempt to consolidate the information we have

The Condominium Act is a living document i.e. it is frequently updated and refined.

For example it is defined here:

Given on the 27th February B. E. 2551 (2008);

http://www.samuiforsale.com/Condominium_Act_4.html

Essentially there is some important information to know about

Thais may own 100% of any condominium.

Farangs (foreigners) may own up to 49% of the saleable space within a condominium – this does not equate to units as units can differ in size. This Farang quota is managed by Juristic – the people who look after the condominium on your behalf.

Juristic are elected by the owners of the condominium including Farang owners – this vote is carried out on a unit basis i.e. everyone's vote carries the same weight. Correction, voting power is proportionate to the sq m ownership; see this post.

If you own a freehold Farang quota condominium you own a % of all assets including the land. The % is based on the % area you occupy within the building. This is currently the only legally accepted mechanism of owning Freehold land in Thailand.

When you buy a Condominium you sign up to a set of obligations to yourself and your co-owners (e.g. payment of fees). These are often enforced by removing services such as water and electricity if you fail to comply.

There is a question by another poster on how a condominium is physically defined I don't know if anyone can help?

This may seem a crazy question but as I intend to retire in Thailand and from what I have read so far I'm not to keen on leasing, Real estate Co's advertise condo's for sale and I agree there are some big condo complexes that look great , BUT , I have seen what I would call a duplex 2 houses joined together and they are also called a condo , At least they are advertised as a condo and as a condo can be owned freehold by a farang, Could be a different option to buying a small place in a complex.

oracle, on 2009-12-07 12:37:02, said:

But a horizontal condos do exist in Thailand, the only difference is that it's not built into the air, but licensed as a condo. Check if it is licensed as a condo, then freehold ownership is possible over the building unit and joint ownership over the land.

Edited by 7by7, 2011-06-02 15:29:34.
Correction made at OP's request

[quiksilva]

A condominium is not so much physically defined but rather it is the term given to describe the legal strata title.

However, in order for that project to be considered eligible to be registered for strata title sub-division it must comply with certain building regulations. In short, a unit must be a part of one building. That does not have to be a high rise.

In fact opposite Oakwood on Narathiwas is a nice condominium comprising what looks to be 4 bed houses surrounding a central garden area, which is in fact built on a concrete floor above parking for the complex. This central courtyard 'garden' connects all the 'houses' together at the 1st floor. Almost brought a place there, v nice.

I'll see if I can dig out the long answer for you later, but don't hold your breath, got a few things on right now. The intrepid amongst you might want to get copies of the building regs for condo's from the BMA translated and posted up here which will explain all.

Edited by quiksilva, 2009-12-07 23:29:38.

[Crossy]

Thanks for starting this PKRV.

I'll leave it in the main forum for a couple of days whilst it gets more responses (pinning seems to be the kiss of death for new input) then pin.

[briley]

From my memory whilst flat condos are within the letter of the law they are against the spirit of the law.


As such some (one??) were approved and build but developers were told not to do it again.




(edited for spelling)

Edited by briley, 2009-12-08 08:37:37.

[stgrhe]

briley, on 2009-12-08 08:36:52, said:

From my memory whilst flat condos are within the letter of the law they are against the spirit of the law.

In the end of the day it is only the letter of the law that counts.

[Crossy]

A little light reading courtesy of Maestro, the Condominium Act.

 Condominium_Act_2522_1979_updated_until_2008.pdf   214.76K   113 downloads

[trogers]

quiksilva, on 2009-12-07 23:26:04, said:

A condominium is not so much physically defined but rather it is the term given to describe the legal strata title.

However, in order for that project to be considered eligible to be registered for strata title sub-division it must comply with certain building regulations. In short, a unit must be a part of one building. That does not have to be a high rise.

In fact opposite Oakwood on Narathiwas is a nice condominium comprising what looks to be 4 bed houses surrounding a central garden area, which is in fact built on a concrete floor above parking for the complex. This central courtyard 'garden' connects all the 'houses' together at the 1st floor. Almost brought a place there, v nice.

I'll see if I can dig out the long answer for you later, but don't hold your breath, got a few things on right now. The intrepid amongst you might want to get copies of the building regs for condo's from the BMA translated and posted up here which will explain all.

One test as to whether the property is landed property or condo is very simple. Define the line between personal property and common property.

Is the land area outside the external walls of the property be deemed private, or deemed common property.

Edited by trogers, 2009-12-08 13:22:01.

[thaiwanderer]

AFAIK
essentially, a condominium = registered as a condominium

The appearance of a building/s is not indicative either way.

You can have a block of individual units with shared facilities etc but they might not be a condominium
or a row of town houses or even seperate villas (with no adjoining walls or structures) that are condominium.

Similarly just because a particular physical layout has been allowed to be registered as a condominium doesn't mean the same structure somewhere else and or at another time will also be allowed (as with anything requiring 'approval').

Assuming the official is on side all you would need to show (structure wise) is separate parts to be individually owned together with collective ownership of the land by all the individual owners together (there are other hoops re environmental impact etc but they don't necessarily affect the type of physical structure per se).

[hhgz]

I'm all for a thread, perhaps even a folder of threads, that relate to owning a condominium.  However, the current discussion of what is the "definition" of a condo does not seem to be going anywhere.  None of us are lawyers, conversant in Thai condominium law, yet, even with a properly translated Condominium Act, there are a myriad of unrelated philosophies and questions.  What is the purpose?  "It's a horizontal condo", "it's a vertical condo", "it's illegal", "no, it isn't", "yes it is".  Since none of us are planning to buy land and build a condo, perhaps a multi-page, long-winded discussion of the legal definition of what constitutes a condo is off-base.  Since two is more fun than one, there's even a second thread of the same yammering.  IMHO, of course...

[pkrv]

hhgz, on 2009-12-08 12:05:47, said:

I'm all for a thread, perhaps even a folder of threads, that relate to owning a condominium. However, the current discussion of what is the "definition" of a condo does not seem to be going anywhere. None of us are lawyers, conversant in Thai condominium law, yet, even with a properly translated Condominium Act, there are a myriad of unrelated philosophies and questions. What is the purpose? "It's a horizontal condo", "it's a vertical condo", "it's illegal", "no, it isn't", "yes it is". Since none of us are planning to buy land and build a condo, perhaps a multi-page, long-winded discussion of the legal definition of what constitutes a condo is off-base. Since two is more fun than one, there's even a second thread of the same yammering. IMHO, of course...

Actually IMO it would be better if we could consolidate our thoughts.

For example I am still confused over Blue Books, Yellow Books and the Chanott ti din (is that even the right spelling - I have seen so many varients).

Even in condominiums (verticle or horizontal) the outcome of some of the documentation seems to be dependent on your status.

If a Farang or a Farang/Farang partnership - You end up with a blue book without your name(s) in it, and the Chanott ti din with your name(s) translated into Thai on it.

If Thai or a Thai/Thai partnership you end up with a blue book with your name(s) in it, and the Chanott ti din with your name(s) on it.

If a Thai/Farang partnership you end up with a yellow book with your name in it for the Farang and a blue book with the name in it for the Thai, and the Chanott ti din with both names on it.

I think!

Also the transfer of funds is a key issue - they must come from off shore and the FETF all come into this. BTW the FETF is an area I have not yet explored but would like to sort out at some point, it is on my to do list.

Edit - for example I have the developer's receipts - how do I go about getting a FETF? (Foreign Exchange Transfer Form)

Edited by pkrv, 2009-12-08 20:15:17.

[CRUNCHER]

quiksilva, on 2009-12-08 00:26:04, said:

A condominium is not so much physically defined but rather it is the term given to describe the legal strata title.

However, in order for that project to be considered eligible to be registered for strata title sub-division it must comply with certain building regulations. In short, a unit must be a part of one building. That does not have to be a high rise.

In fact opposite Oakwood on Narathiwas is a nice condominium comprising what looks to be 4 bed houses surrounding a central garden area, which is in fact built on a concrete floor above parking for the complex. This central courtyard 'garden' connects all the 'houses' together at the 1st floor. Almost brought a place there, v nice.

I'll see if I can dig out the long answer for you later, but don't hold your breath, got a few things on right now. The intrepid amongst you might want to get copies of the building regs for condo's from the BMA translated and posted up here which will explain all.

Is  this the ones the developer tried to call 'lateral condominiums'?  If it is they were built in the late 90's.  If I remember correctly (and I admit I might not) the Government turned somersaults to legalize them, because big money was involved, and then said it would not happen again.

[pkrv]

I had a PM from wmt a new poster - In chatting to him he is asking for advice that I am happy to give, and he is aware of this thread.

Any thoughts?

Quote

Hi WM,

I am more than happy to share my experiences. Something you need to be aware of is that there is an attempt to get a pinned thread on the subject of condominiums - because IMO this will help everyone.

I do have experience buying a condominium off the plan, as do many others. But some people are better able to answer the question if you are buying into the secondary market.

As a suggestion please simply cut and paste this reply along with your original PM (all the text) and post a reply to

http://www.thaivisa....nd-t320264.html

There are ALOT of really good posters who are willing to share their experiences

I assure you you will get information you need - and it is far better comming from more than one source, you can then sift the information

PKRV

Quote

Dear Pkrv,

I have been reading the post about Yellow book and noticed that you owned a condo in Thailand. I figured you could help us. Here is my situation: me and my other half plan to buy a small unit in Bangkok. As we both are not Thai, we have some difficulties to understand how does the transfer of ownership work. We did have a foreign currency account though. Every time we ask to the sales office, they explain very vaguely about the process. Could you please explain me about the condo buying process or give the link about the topic?

Thank you for your help,

WM

[oracle]

pkrv, on 2009-12-10 20:04:13, said:

I had a PM from wmt a new poster - In chatting to him he is asking for advice that I am happy to give, and he is aware of this thread.

Any thoughts?

Quote

Hi WM,

I am more than happy to share my experiences. Something you need to be aware of is that there is an attempt to get a pinned thread on the subject of condominiums - because IMO this will help everyone.

I do have experience buying a condominium off the plan, as do many others. But some people are better able to answer the question if you are buying into the secondary market.

As a suggestion please simply cut and paste this reply along with your original PM (all the text) and post a reply to

http://www.thaivisa....nd-t320264.html

There are ALOT of really good posters who are willing to share their experiences

I assure you you will get information you need - and it is far better comming from more than one source, you can then sift the information

PKRV

Quote

Dear Pkrv,

I have been reading the post about Yellow book and noticed that you owned a condo in Thailand. I figured you could help us. Here is my situation: me and my other half plan to buy a small unit in Bangkok. As we both are not Thai, we have some difficulties to understand how does the transfer of ownership work. We did have a foreign currency account though. Every time we ask to the sales office, they explain very vaguely about the process. Could you please explain me about the condo buying process or give the link about the topic?

Thank you for your help,

WM

I recently spoke to a Thai lawyer about the yellow book or blue book. He was surprised we bothered about a blue book or yellow book because it has legally very little value and you can live without one. I would not bother about blue or yellow, but it looks nice having one, but that’s all    Maybe it's practical in certain situations but not required.

[stgrhe]

oracle, on 2009-12-10 20:39:32, said:

I recently spoke to a Thai lawyer about the yellow book or blue book. He was surprised we bothered about a blue book or yellow book because it has legally very little value and you can live without one. I would not bother about blue or yellow, but it looks nice having one, but that's all    Maybe it's practical in certain situations but not required.

The Thais do need their blue books so that lawyer must be referring to foreigners only. He should have been more precise in his comment.

[pkrv]

stgrhe, on 2009-12-11 00:20:06, said:

oracle, on 2009-12-10 20:39:32, said:

I recently spoke to a Thai lawyer about the yellow book or blue book. He was surprised we bothered about a blue book or yellow book because it has legally very little value and you can live without one. I would not bother about blue or yellow, but it looks nice having one, but that's all Maybe it's practical in certain situations but not required.

The Thais do need their blue books so that lawyer must be referring to foreigners only. He should have been more precise in his comment.

Interesting I came to the same conclusions as well (for farangs, it is confusing).

I used my Blue book at the British Embassy as proof of address, and this was fine.

But it was of no use at Bangkok Bank as it did not have our names in it. Bangkok Bank was only really interested in the Chanott ti din. This was needed for upgrading a Passbook Savings account on a tourist visa to support internet banking, and basically show solid evidence of need for banking activity in Thailand.

We all seem to be in different positions here, in terms of documentation and visa status.

[pkrv]

Ahh Finally a pinned thread on condominiums a repository for our understanding

IMO a useful thread on the Forign Exchange Transaction Form.

http://www.thaivisa....rm-t164242.html

This form is required if you wish to sell up a condominium and take the funds back home.

I am watching with interest because I don't think I have those forms at this time, and this is low on my priority list.

[richm7]

When you own a condo your voting power is proportional to your ownership, i.e. if you own a 50sq.m unit you do not get the same voting power as someone who owns a 150 sq. m unit.  It is definitely NOT on a unit basis.

I would encourage all condo owners to participate in the management of their building, either by attending the AGM/EGM to get their voice heard and their vote counted or by becoming a board member.  A lack of participation in the management is one of the biggest reasons you'll see buildings badly deteriorating. I'd also comment that I have yet to see a management company worth tuppence; they're all useless.  Self management is cheaper and far more effective.  Usually.

[pkrv]

richm7, on 2009-12-17 13:08:45, said:

When you own a condo your voting power is proportional to your ownership, i.e. if you own a 50sq.m unit you do not get the same voting power as someone who owns a 150 sq. m unit. It is definitely NOT on a unit basis.

I would encourage all condo owners to participate in the management of their building, either by attending the AGM/EGM to get their voice heard and their vote counted or by becoming a board member. A lack of participation in the management is one of the biggest reasons you'll see buildings badly deteriorating. I'd also comment that I have yet to see a management company worth tuppence; they're all useless. Self management is cheaper and far more effective. Usually.

You are absolutley correct - Thank you for making me go back to my own contract - yes voting power is proportional to the  sqm ownership I stand corrected

[benchmark]

pkrv, on 2009-12-08 19:51:19, said:

hhgz, on 2009-12-08 12:05:47, said:

I'm all for a thread, perhaps even a folder of threads, that relate to owning a condominium. However, the current discussion of what is the "definition" of a condo does not seem to be going anywhere. None of us are lawyers, conversant in Thai condominium law, yet, even with a properly translated Condominium Act, there are a myriad of unrelated philosophies and questions. What is the purpose? "It's a horizontal condo", "it's a vertical condo", "it's illegal", "no, it isn't", "yes it is". Since none of us are planning to buy land and build a condo, perhaps a multi-page, long-winded discussion of the legal definition of what constitutes a condo is off-base. Since two is more fun than one, there's even a second thread of the same yammering. IMHO, of course...

Actually IMO it would be better if we could consolidate our thoughts.

For example I am still confused over Blue Books, Yellow Books and the Chanott ti din (is that even the right spelling - I have seen so many varients).

Even in condominiums (verticle or horizontal) the outcome of some of the documentation seems to be dependent on your status.

If a Farang or a Farang/Farang partnership - You end up with a blue book without your name(s) in it, and the Chanott ti din with your name(s) translated into Thai on it.

If Thai or a Thai/Thai partnership you end up with a blue book with your name(s) in it, and the Chanott ti din with your name(s) on it.

If a Thai/Farang partnership you end up with a yellow book with your name in it for the Farang and a blue book with the name in it for the Thai, and the Chanott ti din with both names on it.

I think!

Also the transfer of funds is a key issue - they must come from off shore and the FETF all come into this. BTW the FETF is an area I have not yet explored but would like to sort out at some point, it is on my to do list.

Edit - for example I have the developer's receipts - how do I go about getting a FETF? (Foreign Exchange Transfer Form)

Hi PK, If you talk to your bank you can convert some Thai Baht in to some foreign currency and then convert it back to Thai Baht with the bank you can get a FETF. One of my clients did this some time ago, should be able to do it even now.

[pkrv]

There have been several closed threads

The most interesting was

http://www.thaivisa....ya-t308953.html

Lots of comments lots of thoughts.

[Abrak]

Apologies about this fairly complicated question.

There is quite a lot of dispute about when voting rights as to your condominium were applicable both prior to the new Act in 2008 and afterwards.

As I understand you have voting rights to your Condo (whether payment to CAM fees have been paid or not) under the old law and lose those voting rights if CAM fees have not been paid after 6 months post the implementation of the new law.

Is this basically correct?

[pkrv]

Abrak, on 2010-01-06 10:12:51, said:

Apologies about this fairly complicated question.

There is quite a lot of dispute about when voting rights as to your condominium were applicable both prior to the new Act in 2008 and afterwards.

As I understand you have voting rights to your Condo (whether payment to CAM fees have been paid or not) under the old law and lose those voting rights if CAM fees have not been paid after 6 months post the implementation of the new law.

Is this basically correct?

I suspect Abrak - that your interpretation will be the one people draw on - you have no challengers - And in a way that is how I look at this board.

I did however make a mistake in not making the title of this thread more generic so to try to help out on this I am reposting greenside's IMO valuable contribution to condominiums and how to assess them! Is a bit old so my comments on my own condo are out of date, it was bieng built at the time.

pkrv, on 2007-12-03 08:17:49, said:

Stolen from greenside's post on 650k Condos - so usefull I have printed it out and will use the relevent bits (I added point 0.). Obviously no minutes from the AGM yet

0. Check you are getting the on-shore rate for your foreign currency transfer.
1. Get the minutes of the AGMs AND the Minutes of the Committee Meetings.
2. Read The Condo Act; read the Condo Regulations which is a legal document deposited with the Land Office
3. The Condo Association will also have records of what percentage of units are foreign owned. DON'T get stuck with a unit owned by a bogus Thai company.
4. Does the Committee meet as specified in the Regulations?
5. Are the Committee Members approachable and helpful?
6. Speak with as many non-committee member residents as possible
7. Meet the Manager. If he/she won't answer questions and says go speak with the Committee then do so.
8. If Committee says go speak with manager then unless you really like the building and would like to fight all this kind of nonsense at the AGM and during the year, go find somewhere else to buy.
9. Ask for the AUDITED financials; ask for monthly financial statements - they are common property and some good condos put up on notice board for all to peruse. Other condos are/may be secretive. If so, why?
10. Ask about major maintenance projects - sewage and drainage, water and filtration, roof, roads, gardens, painting of outside of building and corridors, elevators.
11. Have the projects planned for the previous year been completed OK? How about any work in progress?
12. Check the basement for damp.
13. Is there a Sinking Fund? Is it sufficient?
14. Is Insurance Coverage enough?
15. What are the yearly maintenance fees? What percentage of co-owners do not pay.
16. Are smoke alarms installed in common areas? In individual units? Are they checked and monitored and/or connected to the fire service?
17. Is there a sprinkler system?
18. Walk the emergency stairwells - what kind of lighting? Does it work? Are the stairwells clear and clean?
19. Check that fire fighting equipment is available and periodically maintained (there should be a record of costs associated with this so you don't just have to take someone's word for it)
20. Check that security personnel are smart, courteous and at their stations.
21. Is there 24 hour coverage by English speaking staff?
22. Does the office staff have name badges?
23. Is the building secure or can anyone just walk in and go where they please?
24. Is the perimeter secure?
25. Is there CCTV and does it work?
26. Are there recordings and how long are they kept?
27. If there is a key card system how often is it changed? How many key cards have been issued? How many are unaccounted for?
28. Try to find out how many burglaries in past 2 years.
29. Are the grounds neat and tidy?
30. Is the garbage room clean and tidy? How often is garbage collected?
31. Availability of (IDD) telephone (data) lines and the cost of same (some condos charge a criminal amount to get a IDD line).
32. Availability of cable TV choice and options for putting up own satellite dish(es).
33. Cost of metered services – water and electricity if supplied by building and cost of changing to own meters.
34. What facilities (residents' lounge, exercise room, etc.) are available and are they in use and good repair? Swimming pool? Tennis court? Is there a charge?
35. Are facilities open to non-residents? This can lead to an increased security risk and different atmosphere with strangers coming and going frequently. Is additional wear and tear on the facilities covered by the charges to non-residents or does the management pocket the takings?
36. Are there karaoke bars or other noisy places nearby? How often? How loud? How late?
37. If there is a view is there the possibility it could be blocked in the future?
38. Check basement rooms for trash, evidence of staff (and their friends) staying there.
39. Parking spaces are common property and should not be allocated.
40. How long to wait for an elevator during high season?
41. How many units are currently unoccupied?
42. How many units are currently offered for sale or rent? Check other prices.
43. Make sure most if not all the units in the building are occupied by the owners.
44. If the management offers to rent condo's on the owners' behalf, how much do they charge and exactly what service is on offer?

Edited by pkrv, 2010-01-20 17:21:55.

[hhgz]

"43. Make sure most if not all the units in the building are occupied by the owners."

I haven't a clue what this means.

Most condos have a "sales/rental office", and the personnel can answer #3, #41, #42, #43 (assuming the question mean "how many units are rented).  Too, they can tell you how long a unit was for sale, and both the asking and selling prices.  Further, the office can give you a tour of available units.

It's obvious that the original writer of this list has his nose bent out of joint ("bogus", "secretive", "nonsense"), for whatever reason.  Condo meeting minutes and audited statements are available from the condo office.  Just because they aren't posted throughout the building doesn't mean that anyone is trying to hide anything.

[pkrv]

hhgz, on 2010-01-22 08:42:48, said:

"43. Make sure most if not all the units in the building are occupied by the owners."

I haven't a clue what this means.

Most condos have a "sales/rental office", and the personnel can answer #3, #41, #42, #43 (assuming the question mean "how many units are rented). Too, they can tell you how long a unit was for sale, and both the asking and selling prices. Further, the office can give you a tour of available units.

It's obvious that the original writer of this list has his nose bent out of joint ("bogus", "secretive", "nonsense"), for whatever reason. Condo meeting minutes and audited statements are available from the condo office. Just because they aren't posted throughout the building doesn't mean that anyone is trying to hide anything.

I thought it was a good post, IMO alot of thought and effort went into it. As with all these things they are a starting point and opened to discussion - the OP is aware of this thread.

I actually disagee wih point 39 - Our carparking space is documented on the Chanott ti din. It is ours and is a component of our condominium - Anyone parks in it and I will charge them rent

[hhgz]

"Anyone parks in it and I will charge them rent"

Excellent idea!  Some parking spots in my condo's garage are assigned, and most are not.  I'm not sure why some people consider it to such a big deal.