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[Scott]

Again, a reminder to stay on topic and please remember that education visas affect a lot of other places besides language schools.

I am aware of at least one school that employs teachers who unqualified by getting them an education visa. They are signed up classes--not Thai language classes--they then work illegally as teachers.

[harrry]

macwalen, on 2009-12-17 14:59:47, said:

tim73, on 2009-12-17 14:51:48, said:

harrry, on 2009-12-17 13:15:28, said:

About time

Didn't take long these "high horse riding" farangs to show up. "Screw you, I got mine". Good 4 you, harry boy.
These moralists would be squealing like pigs (AGAIN) if the rules for THEIR visa had been changed.

It just looks like the school has not paid enough m-o-n-e-y to some high ranking official, nothing new.
Probably newer school in Pattaya?

tim73, I have no idea what you mean by your post? You mean Walen is a new school or Harry will lose his visa or what?

I think he means that I am safe on another visa and wish to gloat. I do not think I will bother translating the other part:)

It is true I am on a retirement visa.

It is also true I am a student at a language school (not Wallen) which while its teaching standards has good has permitted (Even maye encouraged) student to not bother attending as they will continue to issue extension letters for the whole year. This means that the classes I am attending are impacted.
It is also true that I have been critical of Wallen for permitting this practice though it is common.
Wallen is a commited school which teaches using its method and has every right to consider itself a good school if people use it. (THe method isnot for me but it suits othrs well)

I hope thishas clarrified the other poster and my position.

[orosee]

Here's how it will play out for eager students:

IO: "Please speak to me in Thai"

ED: <speaks fluent Thai which has been acquired and practised over several years>

IO: "Well, your Thai is very good so there's no need to study anymore. Please make sure you leave before the expiry of your current visa."

So take the middle road when being tested

[tim73]

macwalen, on 2009-12-17 14:59:47, said:

tim73, I have no idea what you mean by your post? You mean Walen is a new school or Harry will lose his visa or what?

I had similar problems a while ago, even had to show photos of where I live (finger pointing to the door) , photos from school (me studying hard with serious face, remember that, folks! No laughing!) and school attendance list of hours signed. Sometimes it was the problem with hours (not enough supposedly) but then every problem magically disappeared next time....

[MacWalen]

silentnine, on 2009-12-17 15:07:33, said:

questions i was asked.
do you have a Thai wife, are you married, do you have a marriage certificate, how many times per week do you go to your Thai lessons.

after the initial question asked in Thai the rest were asked in English with the reply requested in Thai.

Thank you for letting us know, so nothing difficult as you can see, plus they extended your visa.

[pattaya_girl]

Hopefully this will not affect me, as I am going (in two months) to sign on at Pro Language Pattaya Klang, to learn to speak and read Thai.

I have no intention of signing up and then never attending Class.

This new thing at Immigration is probably to check that you are going and actually learning and not just signing up with the intention of just getting the Visa.

However, I would like to know what the so called test would be for some of my friends who have an ED Visa for learning Martial Arts, and I have another friend who is taking a Hairdressers course.

[Dakhar]

macwalen, on 2009-12-17 14:11:46, said:

This exam is a piece of cake if you do what you are supposed to do and that is to learn Thai. If you do not know anything at all then you may have a problem at some point but they warn you first so you still have time to catch up. It is a positive development as it reinforces the fact that ED visas are a legitimate way to stay in Thailand!

How do you know it is a "piece of cake?" Did you design it, did you administer the test? Have you taken the same test? Seems pretty subjective to me....

Fortunatley for me, I don't have to worry about such "tests" but in this ever changing country... who knows, maybe I will have to under go such testing in the future.

[Parvis]

It becomes EASIER - not more difficult to learn languages after the second language.

This "crackdown" was necessary and about time. One particular school started to give "one free week" of tuition just to fill their classrooms to make it appear they have many students. Their ratio of student visas to actual students studying was "ridiculously high". Their advertising to be able to get student visas is "extremely successful".

They claim to be the "leader other schools must follow".

[jfchandler]

One other issue to be considered...

I believe, the Pattaya-Jomtien immigration office has a reputation among the visa experts here as being somewhat a rogue operation at times, meaning, they don't necessarily exactly follow the national guidelines, but sometimes manage to invent and enforce their own peculiar implementation of things...

The fact that the original report here came from Pattaya-Jomtien makes me wonder if this is just one of their local peculiarities, or part of something broader in the country... I'm guessing it's the former...

[ericthai]

rethaired, on 2009-12-17 14:55:21, said:

...So, about the crackdown! I am afraid those immigration officers know very little about linguistics and should not be ruling so harshly on a situation which is contrived at best. And, anyway, what about the "Mai Pen Lai" attitude? Some day it is on; some day it is off?

You say you are a linguist, but then say you speak two languages, isn't the definition of a linguist is a person that speaks several languages fluently. You even say that you don't consider yourself bilingual, so I don't think I would be going around saying I'm a linguist.

Also you claim that a good proportion of Thais know English, don't know where you go, but most Thai's English is not so good. The university kids graduate and hardly know anything, believe me I have hired quite a few. I would say the girls in bars learn more than university students. As for foreigners learning Thai, guess you are meeting the wrong people or just hanging out in the wrong places. I myself am not great in Thai but my staff understands me and I know several foreigners that speak Thai very well and also read and write Thai. I'm always meeting other foreigners in the business world that can speak some Thai. I think you need to get out more!!!

[Luciano1860]

rethaired, on 2009-12-17 14:55:21, said:

...So, about the crackdown! I am afraid those immigration officers know very little about linguistics and should not be ruling so harshly on a situation which is contrived at best. And, anyway, what about the "Mai Pen Lai" attitude? Some day it is on; some day it is off?

Hey mate, no linguist to be sure, but I had a Ed Visa from Pro Language at Times Square and took it seriously enough. I went to class, did the homework, practiced at every chance and feel like I can carry on conversations in areas of daily life quite nicely.

I am 50, not young, but if you apply yourself, you can learn to speak Thai. I have a retirement Visa now, but have continue to study. The trick is learning to speak AND read/write for the testing.

The 90 day extensions by design have always claimed to have a testing element, but was never enforced in my case. The challenge came when I wanted to apply for Year 2 - this test is conducted at The Ministry of Ed by their staff and includes a verbal AND written test.

I made a conscience decision not to overload my mind with the reading and focus on speaking. But I believe now this was a mistake, as any hope for an Ed Visa beyond the first year is tied to the full course of study.

Well best of luck, the Ed Visa is still a breeze compared to other visas I've had...you need to do the work, and it WILL pay dividends. It is so cool to be able to chat-up friends in their language, they appreciate it as well...well worth the effort.

[Luxius]

thaibkk, on 2009-12-17 14:15:03, said:

ps: americans and brits have it so much more easy to learn a new language

as they only speak english in general

in my case, Thai is/would be my 5th language ...

as where english is my 3rd...

any consideration ???

I don't find this true at all, and I base it on my experience with speaking Thai with Americans - who in particular have difficulties with many of the vowels - and other nationalities as well. So far I have attended two different classes, and the same pattern emerges. It is also the tonal part of the language, that has many confused and they quickly give up. In fact, for English native speakers it is much harder to learn other languages, because they are used to others learning their own.

I am of Danish nationality, and I speak 5 different languages as well (some better than others). In the beginning I thought it would be almost impossible for me, to comprehend the differences in Asian and European languages. Two days ago I picked up a Thai-Thai dictionary published by the national department of language (or equivalent), and my love for learning this language grows every day. I wouldn't personally have a problem with passing a test at the immigration office, as I read and filled out the form in Thai last time I was there. I do, however, understand the frustration it might cause, amongst those who truly find it difficult to decipher Thai language.

At the school I was taking my first term there was a lot of change in the rules, and the owner/teacher was not at all sure about the law, so there was a lot of uncertainty and change of plans. The students didn't exactly know how to go about, and it was new to the school as well. After 6 months it was decided, that we simply put our signature on the days we took classes, writing what we had learned that day on the line. After 6 months we were all capable of doing it in Thai as well, so for us it was no obstacle at all. This was a request made by immigration, according to my teacher, and was to be widely spread on all private schools in Phuket.

I also find it about time, because I would hate to see the ED visa exploited to the brink of extinction, as it is my only means of being able to continue studying Thai language and culture. Make an official test, like all other school systems around the world already has. It isn't hard to make one, that it is impossible to tamper with. You just have the entire region meet up at a designated hall, and have immigration officials oversee the process. The test should of course range from easy to hard, being able to write the Thai alphabet, draw lines between words and pictures, and maybe even read and translate whole sentences. This would at least confirm, that students have some understand of the written language, which should be an absolute minimum for any serious student.

[leosia]

This is a great example of how the visa system in Thailand is confused by the Thai authorities and offers potential for abuse by foreigners (I'm not saying that's the case here). An ED visa - to come on a work study tour or observation tour, to participate in projects or seminars, to attend a conference or training course, to study as a foreign Buddhist monk, etc - has to be applied for a month in advance. Because it's granted for something so specific there should be a clear duration period attached to the visa. If it needs to be extended for any reason the applicant should just provide evidence of progress in the area being studied. That should be very easy to show (applicant) and to review (immigration), providing it's not just another scam for staying in the country.

[SiriusBlack1]

I've had ED for years, didn't know I could get a visa for that.

Kind of makes sense though really...

[pjclark1]

silentnine, on 2009-12-17 15:07:33, said:

questions i was asked.
do you have a Thai wife, are you married, do you have a marriage certificate, how many times per week do you go to your Thai lessons.

after the initial question asked in Thai the rest were asked in English with the reply requested in Thai.

1) Mai mee ไม่มี
2) Mai mee ไม่มี
3) Mai mee ไม่มี
4) Sam สาม

Does this mean I have passed and don't need to turn up for lessons any more?

(crikey ..... 1300 members and 1000 guests reading this topic at the moment)

Edited by pjclark1, 2009-12-17 15:41:21.

[OxfordWill]

was it a written test too?

Edited by OxfordWill, 2009-12-17 15:34:31.

[Sateev]

Regardless of what 'they' (Immigration clerks) are doing, it's just another example of arbitrary decision-making by a higher-up with an axe to grind. Unless the police issue a new regulation, specifying the level of achievement required to meet the visa requirement, it's all BS...

And for the 'som num na' crowd: it is becoming more and more typically petty here in TV. So many insecure a**holes with nothing else to do but revel in others' misfortune, judgemental to the bitter end. Yeah, you'll last a long time here...

There is a long-standing caution in Asia against breaking someone else's rice bowl. So typical of the late comers to bring a disregard of same from their own careworn countries...maybe better stay home, and gossip about the neighbors, and call the law if you see something actionable. Please.

Oh, and for those who miss no opportunity to bash Americans, well, 'nuff said.

Sateev

[Luxius]

Sateev, on 2009-12-17 15:40:05, said:

Oh, and for those who miss no opportunity to bash Americans, well, 'nuff said.

I find it true, that Americans do a much better job bashing themselves.

Enough said (in proper English).

[silentnine]

OxfordWill, on 2009-12-17 15:34:10, said:

was it a written test too?

no.
verbal test was not formal either.

[canuckamuck]

rethaired, on 2009-12-17 14:55:21, said:

Well! Let's make a distinction between Thai being your 5th language and the notion that, in reality, you know a little bit of Thai and, presumably, a few sentences in some of those other languages that you are boasting about! I am a linguist and, even though most would consider me fully bilingual in 2 languages, I don't even consider myself so, but then I am really picky and consider most unilingual speakers unable to claim that they know their first language, especially English, which is one of the most illogical and backward languages around, but I digress (as this sentence is). Assuming you mean being somewhat conversant in those languages and Thai, knowing a little of Thai is nice, especially if you have been staying here for a while and are young, but what a pain and waste of anyone's time, especially when a good proportion of Thais know English (and learned it for many years more than most foreigners will ever be able to learn Thai) better than most foreigners know Thai and especially when research demonstrates without a shadow of a doubt that it is extremely hard to learn another language well, past puberty (especially the accent). So, forcing expats to learn Thai seems totally counter-productive. And is Thai or the thousands of dialects? And, why would I want to learn more than just a few sentences to get by, because honestly, assuming they are interested, talking philosophy in Thai is not on my TO-DO list anytime soon! Maybe more effort should be put in reducing class size, improving their pedagogy around teaching English, and changing the culture that makes learning a language (especially English) extremely hard. Not that I am blaming anyone here, as some of these impediments are obviously gigantic, if not impossible to tackle! Although we know that the well-off just send their children abroad as a way to bypass this, which is a clear indightement that the system is inadequate. But I digress again!

So, about the crackdown! I am afraid those immigration officers know very little about linguistics and should not be ruling so harshly on a situation which is contrived at best. As far as I know, there are no clear expectations set in the visa asking someone to become proficient in Thai. And, if so, where are the objective tests that would determine one's proficiency. And, anyway, what about the "Mai Pen Lai" attitude? Some day it is on; some day it is off? Come on! It was hinted in those fantastic commercials that everyone spoke English in Thailand! Can I get my money back?

So nice of you to decide, for the rest of us, what is a worthwhile use of our time. Instead of spending my time becoming a pompous monolingual linguist, I am studying and actually learning Thai to use it. I do this so I can have more meaningful conversations with my wife and kids and extended Thai relatives. Beyond that, I wish I had more Thai friends, and that will only come when I can communicate more easily. Currently I am stuck striking up conversations with the know-it-all Farangs that feel so superior when they roam a third world nation. I know the peasants here are undeserving of your great sagacity, but little ole' me doesn't mind so much to learn what they think and feel. I hope you understand my meaning; I am afraid I didn't use enough parenthesis.

[Dakhar]

ericthai, on 2009-12-17 15:21:42, said:

You say you are a linguist, but then say you speak two languages, isn't the definition of a linguist is a person that speaks several languages fluently. You even say that you don't consider yourself bilingual, so I don't think I would be going around saying I'm a linguist. ...

No, the definition of a linguist does not necessarily mean a person must be fluent in several languages etc to be a linquist. A linguist can be a person that studies languages, origins, cultures tied to the language, phonetics etc etc etc. It could be argued that a speech pathologist is a linguist. I studied linguistics in my BAAS program, lang aquisition, phonetics, speech pathologies etc... At one time I spoke Mandarine Chinese fluently, but with all of that, I do not consider myself a linguist. But I can tell you the fact that a person can suposedly speak 5 languages means diddle when it comes to learning Thai etc. If anything, depending on the secondary languages it may be helpful (if the languages have similarities to Thai)

http://en.wikipedia....st_of_linguists

But thinking that you should get "special treatment" because you speak 5 languages is much like saying you should get special treatment on your math exam because your are tall. No, relationship....

Sorry Charlie

[endlessimage]

tonititan, on 2009-12-17 14:13:13, said:

I agree that the testing would need to be planned, designed, and administered carefully. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, and learning Thai as a 2nd (or 3rd, etc) language is much more difficult for some than others. Personally, I attended a Thai class twice a week for 6 months - not for an ED visa, just for "fun." I worked hard, participated in class, and did my homework. After the 6 months, I still had much weaker Thai than some friends who just "picked it up" through daily living. Learning additional languages is just not one of my strengths. As others have said, attendance seems to be a more fair way to check the legitimacy of an ED visa. One guy could walk into immigration and be able to converse semi-fluently in Thai because he spends all his time with bar girls and various Thai girlfriends instead of going to class. Is he more deserving of an ED visa than someone who actually goes to class and puts in the classtime? No, not in my opinion. Of course, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to monitor all these ED visas, I just don't think an on-the-spot, informal conversational test is the best monitoring system.

Exactly!

[eek]

silentnine, on 2009-12-17 15:46:55, said:

OxfordWill, on 2009-12-17 15:34:10, said:

was it a written test too?

no.
verbal test was not formal either.

Ok..before the thread veers more off-topic, can i say then it could possibly have just been something silentnines local officer decided to try out impromptu? If the officer did not say this is some kind of new official arrangement, then maybe they just took it upon themselves to syke out the Ed visa holders. So actually no "crackdown" at all.

Anyway, unless official, i kind of think the title is a tad overly dramatic in any case.

[OxfordWill]

I think we are all used to Thaivisa headlines being a little dramatic by now.

[MacWalen]

It is most likely as you say eek. Until we hear more reports like that we may assume that it was just one-off case.