182 replies to this topic
Posted 2010-02-15 11:32:05
@anchan42 I'd definitely like to post a video of me speaking at least basic Thai with locals here in Bangkok, just before I leave. Hopefully it should work out! The video desi linked to is actually in English, I'm just discussing my interpretation of tones (2 weeks into the project)
@tombkk Thanks for the good luck wishes! Could you give me some examples of multi-syllable unique words in Thai? I really don't think it could compare with European languages - I mean Thai seems to prefer compound words like all the ones with ใจ (heart) for example that are absolutely unique words in European languages. Maybe most of the language doesn't do this, but a lot of vocabulary I've come across so far seems to be just single or double syllables or compound words.
I've only got just over 2 weeks left in the project. I'll share my conclusions on the blog of course. I have to warn people convinced that Thai is harder than European languages, that I'll be optimistic about the ease of future progress and generally positive about how I view Thai compared to how difficult I had perceived it to be before coming. This will involve some extrapolation as I won't have reached the stage of actually speaking it at an intermediate or higher level, but all news of what's ahead doesn't seem that daunting. I honestly think the hardest part is universal for all languages; not feeling embarrassed to make mistakes, keeping up progress, not getting intimidated by learning new ways of speaking or the amount of new vocabulary to learn etc. Just needs a bit of work and practice, and most importantly, a positive attitude 
Hopefully the couple of articles I've written have shown people that there are shortcuts and other ways of looking at this "difficult" task
#52
tod-daniels
Posted 2010-02-15 13:00:22
Reading a thai word clearly with the appropriate tone and actually knowing what that word means (in your native language and it's appropriate meaning in thai) are WORLDS apart. I know MANY students of thai who can look at a thai word and parrot out the sound with near perfect inflection, yet when pressed on the meaning get a "deer in the headlights" glazed eye look.
For me learning thai was hours of memorizing thai vocabulary. I means HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of words along with their stand alone meaning, the possibly that it had a different meaning when compounded with other words, and their idiomatic or slang meaning as well. It has taken a LONG time to get to where when I saw or heard a word it was hard coded in my brain to recognize the meaning by the context of what was said or written and I am far from as proficient as I'd like to be.
While I admire your "stick-to-it-tive-ness” in learning this language, I believe you're over simplifying things a little to say you learned to "read" as quickly as you did. Pronounce words with a high degree of accuracy; POSSIBLY but tying the pronunciation into the meaning of what you just read, hmmmm  a stretch I believe.
Here’s an example of idiomatic or slang getting in the way of what one might think is straightforward thai;
Say you’re in a coffee shop, and you ask the waitress if there is milk มีนมไหม. Now that is an example of an all too well known idiomatic expression which while appearing innocuous carries the implied sexual connotation to nearly every thai that hears it. Another example is; say the waitress brings a pitcher of milk and motions to add it to your coffee; now a person in english might say, "That's not necessary, I'll help myself. BUT saying the same thing thai ไม่ต้อง จะช่วยตัวเอง and again you're "off to the races" with the idiomatic and/or sexual slang area of thai. This is one area which makes the thai language so rich in subtleties and sub-context. BTW; those were two examples off the top if my head and granted poor ones at that. I only use them to show reading is NOT just about pronunciation, but ability to know the meaning of words both as stand alone entities and idiomatically.
I just believe reading without understanding the meaning of what you're reading isn't really reading at all. I know all too many thais who can pick up and english language paper and read a coherent sentence with a pretty accurate representation of english pronunciation; yet have abso-tively posit-lutely NO clue meaning wise about what they just read. 
Still I give you credit for trying, and even more credit for posting your experiences here and on your site as well.
I completely concur with your statement making headway in this language is getting over the reticence in speaking wrong, letting native speakers correct you and trying again to get it right (something I struggle with on a daily basis  )
.
As the thais say ผิดเป็นครู and as the famous thai singer น้อย วงพรู (son of กมลา สุโกศล) says in the song he sings of hers; อยู่ที่เรียนรู้ ยู่ที่ยอมรับมัน "live and learn".
Good luck in your future endeavors and just a little FYI: next time you buy any of those B/S souvenir thai shirts, get one at least 2 sizes larger than you think will fit you; (first off they are asian sized, and you don’t appear asian , and secondly they will shrink when washed/dried)
(edited TWICE due to internet disconnectz )
Edited by tod-daniels, 2010-02-15 13:10:00.
Posted 2010-02-15 14:19:56
irishpolyglot,
The majority of words in Thai related to government, business, science, morality, sprituality etc are words that came into Thai from Pali, Sanskrit or Khmer, and these are genuine polysyllabic words.
Simple ones include กรรมการ = a committee, or อุบัติเหตุ= an accident, อัตโนมัติ = automatic, ศาสตราจารย์ = professor, and while you could argue to what extent these are compound words, they are no less true words similar to the English 'intermission', which could equally be seen as a compound.
There are a great many of these words in Thai -- an expert could give you an approximate proportion of the vocabulary, I'm sure.
Best of luck with your project.
Posted 2010-02-15 14:41:33
@RickBradford Thanks for those answers! Interesting to hear that more technical words are polysyllabic; that would make sense why I haven't seen any since I'm only learning basic vocabulary.
@tod-daniels For your milk example, I'm sorry but that really is universal. All languages have expressions. Saying "Buona fortuna" in Italian for example (a word-for-word translation of "good luck") would not be received well at all, and the idiomatic "in bocca al lupo" (in the mouth of the wolf) is necessary. I remember jokingly say "I could just eat you up!!" when talking about a cute girl in Brazil, which is ok in English, but comer has pure sexual notations when not literally talking about eating in Portuguese. I was being very offensive without knowing it. Off the top of my head I could give you dozens of examples instantly in languages that I'm familiar with. Literal translations don't work in any language. Even similar words have subtle differences.
This is why I keep coming back with retorts; learning Thai is not necessarily harder than learning European languages. People always seem to feel that their task is the hardest one. Learning ANY language is hard, but if you look at with my "stick-to-it-iveness" attitude, it's doable and I have achieved fluency in other languages thanks to that attitude (and not thanks to natural talent). I still don't see why it wouldn't be as hard and as easy in Thai.
You are totally right that my current level of reading with next to zero comprehension is not actually that impressive or even useful. However, I wasn't aiming for that in this trip; just being able to "read" in my current superficial manner to prove that it isn't that hard. Learning vocabulary is pretty much the big gap I have with Thai and why I can't speak it, but I don't mind that for the purposes of this project. I'm still hoping people will appreciate that I've tried to focus on what's different in Thai. I would see the rest as just applying the same principles as in European languages.
Sorry if this sounds like I'm belittling Thai's difficulty, but I'm actually trying to encourage more people to speak the language by being consistent in saying how it isn't that bad. It makes me sad to see how many English speakers living permanently in Thailand have nothing more than a few words because of believing that it's just too hard to learn for them. If I can convince just a few of those people to try again with a different approach, I'd feel like I would have achieved something important, even if I didn't end up speaking Thai itself
Thanks for the continued discussion and especially for the encouragement, despite any disagreements! I really like the positive feedback (nearly) all of you have been giving here. Hopefully you all see where I'm coming from. You can keep telling me how hard aspects of Thai I don't know are, and I'll keep coming back unconvinced. I'm just that stubborn after hearing it all several times already for other languages
Posted 2010-02-15 23:53:52
Slightly OT, but that paper by Doug Cooper ('How Do Thais Tell Letters Apart'?) has to be one of the most useful articles on written Thai and reading Thai fonts that I have read.
Simon
Posted 2010-02-16 02:19:20
Edited because I changed my mind about what I had to say.
Edited by TheGhostWithin, 2010-02-16 02:27:53.
Posted 2010-02-16 12:00:15
 anchan42, on 2010-02-14 12:15:16, said:
tombkk, on 2010-02-14 12:19:30, said: I could not find any similarity between the vocabulary, as you have with the romance languages.
You have to look hard.
[Disclaimer: I know this is off topic, but it's fun to discuss, and we've probably said what we can say about Benny's efforts for now.]
You don't have to look that hard. But it helps to know that recent influence of Chinese on Thai is from immigrants who came to Siam by sea in the last few hundred years, who virtually all came from the south -- mostly Guangdong (especially Suatow) and Hainan. So the loanwords will be a lot more obvious if you're looking at Chinese languages from that area. Teochew (แต้จิ๋ว) is the ancestral tongue of most Chinese Thais. This is also why Thai uses the southern Chinese pronunciations of place names in China -- ปักกิ่ง for Beijing and ไหหลำ for Hainan, for example.
The more recent Chinese loans are the ones that still "feel" Chinese to Thais (just like "croissant" and "debutante" still "feel" French to an English speaker, because they are recent loans from French).
These more recent Chinese loans include a lot of food and cultural terms (but not just those)
หมวย, ตี๋, เจ๊, ก๋ง, ก๋วยเตี๋ยว, ก๋วยจั๊บ, ปาท่องโก๋, ปอเปี๊ยะ, เกี๊ยว, เฉาก๊วย, ซีอิ๊ว, ฮวงจุ้ย, เฮง, อั่งเปา, แต๊ะเอีย, แป๊ะเจี๊ยะ, เก้าอี้, etc. etc.
Older Chinese loanwords have been in Thai much longer, probably since before the ancestors of modern Thais migrated over land from Southern China between 800-1000 years ago. These words have often lost their Chinese "feel" and have become assimilated into the language as regular words (similar to English and its older French loans like "beef" and "pork", etc.). Sometimes the true origin of these words is debated, but they are very similar to Chinese words, thus a connection is posited. The certainty of the etymology depends on the particular words.
เอ็ด ยี่/สอง สาม สี่ ห้า หก เจ็ด แปด เก้า (the numbers -- หนึ่ง seems to be the exception), ม้า, กว้้าง, แล้ว, จับ, แจ้ง, ปู (to spread out, like a mat), อ้วก, เอว, etc. (That's a thoroughly random sample of words I recall reading a claimed Chinese origin for.)
It's still the conventional wisdom in China that Thai is related to Chinese genetically, but outside China few linguists still believe this. This was the conventional wisdom in Thailand for a long time, too, but that's also fading out as more and more Thai linguists get western-style educations (and then come back and teach Thai students here).
Posted 2010-02-16 12:07:51
RickBradford, on 2010-02-15 02:19:56, said: There are a great many of these words in Thai -- an expert could give you an approximate proportion of the vocabulary, I'm sure.
I don't consider myself an expert, but I do know that approximately 25% of Thai dictionary words (purely by the numbers) are of Pali or Sanskrit origin. A minority of those are monosyllabic. In actual frequency of usage the percentage may be higher. I've never calculated that, but it's an interesting question. I'll see about finding time to do that.
Posted 2010-02-17 09:51:55
Rikker, on 2010-02-16 12:00:15, said: [Disclaimer: I know this is off topic, but it's fun to discuss, and we've probably said what we can say about Benny's efforts for now.]
You don't have to look that hard. But it helps to know that recent influence of Chinese on Thai is from immigrants who came to Siam by sea in the last few hundred years, who virtually all came from the south -- mostly Guangdong (especially Suatow) and Hainan. So the loanwords will be a lot more obvious if you're looking at Chinese languages from that area. Teochew (แต้จิ๋ว) is the ancestral tongue of most Chinese Thais. This is also why Thai uses the southern Chinese pronunciations of place names in China -- ปักกิ่ง for Beijing and ไหหลำ for Hainan, for example.
The more recent Chinese loans are the ones that still "feel" Chinese to Thais (just like "croissant" and "debutante" still "feel" French to an English speaker, because they are recent loans from French).
These more recent Chinese loans include a lot of food and cultural terms (but not just those)
หมวย, ตี๋, เจ๊, ก๋ง, ก๋วยเตี๋ยว, ก๋วยจั๊บ, ปาท่องโก๋, ปอเปี๊ยะ, เกี๊ยว, เฉาก๊วย, ซีอิ๊ว, ฮวงจุ้ย, เฮง, อั่งเปา, แต๊ะเอีย, แป๊ะเจี๊ยะ, เก้าอี้, etc. etc.
Older Chinese loanwords have been in Thai much longer, probably since before the ancestors of modern Thais migrated over land from Southern China between 800-1000 years ago. These words have often lost their Chinese "feel" and have become assimilated into the language as regular words (similar to English and its older French loans like "beef" and "pork", etc.). Sometimes the true origin of these words is debated, but they are very similar to Chinese words, thus a connection is posited. The certainty of the etymology depends on the particular words.
เอ็ด ยี่/สอง สาม สี่ ห้า หก เจ็ด แปด เก้า (the numbers -- หนึ่ง seems to be the exception), ม้า, กว้้าง, แล้ว, จับ, แจ้ง, ปู (to spread out, like a mat), อ้วก, เอว, etc. (That's a thoroughly random sample of words I recall reading a claimed Chinese origin for.)
It's still the conventional wisdom in China that Thai is related to Chinese genetically, but outside China few linguists still believe this. This was the conventional wisdom in Thailand for a long time, too, but that's also fading out as more and more Thai linguists get western-style educations (and then come back and teach Thai students here).
Yeh, those are the obvious ones. In most of those not only the words are loan but also the objects. They don’t need much analysing to tell that they are originated from one of Chinese dialects. For me the interesting words are those that have long been forgotten. Identifying their origin accurately probably worth a research paper on each of them. The numbers are quite interesting too. If we look at the number zero ศูนย์, from the writing I would say that it is a Pali /Sanskrit word. The mathematical concept of zero probably developed much later the rest of the number. This would suggest that Chinese influence aged much older then Pali /Sanskrit. I am not sure about genetically related through.
The migration south of Thais is also debatable but I have to stop before getting too much off topic.
Still waiting for youtube links…
Posted 2010-02-17 15:27:36
Really interesting and mainly positive conversation. Nice.
I only have time to skim through it now, but it is interesting.
I'll have a look at www.fluent.... soon.
Hope the learning has gone well.
It would be great to think, I could set aside 8 weeks - concentrate fully on learning Thai and I would make some very good progress. In fact that makes a lot of sense - but having someone already do it, helps. ie. I know that 8 weeks won't be wasted.
A friend of mine was posted to the Australian Embassy in Bangkok and the first 6 months of his posting was in Chiang Mai learning Thai full time. With professional teachers. By the end of that he could read quite complicated articles and letters.
Me - I have been here about 6 years. I can speak and hear a fair bit when one on one. But watching the TV - mainly too hard. Reading and writing - only limited ability.
I am quite convinced that learning here and there, bits and pieces doesn't work too well, and I'd love to do some intensive learning over a couple of months.
But time and money....
Anyway, good luck everyone with your study
Posted 2010-02-19 07:38:49
irishpolyglot, on 2010-02-15 14:41:33, said: If I can convince just a few of those people to try again with a different approach, I'd feel like I would have achieved something important, even if I didn't end up speaking Thai itself
I think it's more a matter of personality. Based on your videos I can see that you're outgoing, brimming with self-confidence and not afraid to make mistakes. I'm not any of those. I often find myself composing sentences in Thai in my head for use in the situation I'm in. I rarely have the courage to actually utter those sentences.
Posted 2010-02-19 12:11:12
@Ratsima
Thanks for the compliments! However, I'd argue that outgoing-ness is a skill that can be learned like any other
When I started these language learning travels (still only speaking English) at 20, I was extremely shy and introvert and nothing like what you see in the videos. (I'd describe myself as nothing more than an awkward Maths nerd at that stage) .
I argue on my site that shyness can be overcome if you put your mind to it! I have made SO MANY MISTAKES in speaking foreign languages in the last 7 years that I literally don't care any more (to the point where I am no longer intimidated by any aspect of a language, as you can see in my retorts in this thread). It took time for it to sink in, but people don't stand around, point and guffaw at you for using the wrong conjugation/noun gender/tone
One thing I do is embrace mistakes and accept that what I'm saying WILL be wrong. I never aim for perfection, as this is always way too intimidating. I aim to say "something" and that's surprisingly easy, no matter what your level may be.
Next time you might speak Thai, have the goal of making 100 mistakes in as short a time as possible! It's a weird goal, but it gets you over the intimidating process when your goal may be to speak sentences with absolutely zero mistakes. I know it's hardly a quick fix, but please give it a try and let me know how it goes
Posted 2010-02-19 12:30:48
irishpolyglot said: Don’t Be Scared – What’s The Worst That Could Happen?
Here's a couple recent experiences:
1 - For a couple of years I tutored two Thai sisters in English. I'd met them at their parents' minimart. They're a very nice and friendly family. Although I don't tutor them anymore, I still used to stop in to buy a few beers and have a chat. Shortly after the New Year I went in and the entire family was there. I was chatting with the sisters in English and trying to talk to the parents in Thai. I must have said something awful because all four of their jaws dropped, the conversation stopped and it was clear it was time for me to leave. Next time I went in they all ignored me. If I see them on the road, it's eyes down. So, for one error in Thai a very nice five year relationship with a Thai family is finished.
2 - I used to frequent a Thai restaurant near my home. The menu is in Thai and because I can read it they assume I can speak Thai. I cannot. One day one of the waitresses with whom I like to flirt a bit asked me a question in Thai. I thought she asked if I was waiting for a friend. So, I said "No." Her face went blank and she walked away. A moment later one of the waitress who can speak English said to me, "Why did you do that? She just asked if she could be your friend and you said 'No'." It used to be that when I rode my bicycle past that place the waitresses would always wave and smile. Now they just give me a dirty look. Needless to say, I don't dine there any longer. So, for one error in Thai what was once an enjoyable dining experience is now kaput.
These recent experiences simply reinforced my reticence to make mistakes.
Posted 2010-02-19 13:18:34
As I said above, I unknowingly told a little girl (very crudely) that I wanted to have sex with her in Brazil... that was in front of her parents. I've had a huge amount of linguistic mix ups that would make you cringe if I listed them, and I could list a LOT!! I got arrested on one occasion, and nearly deported on another because of screwing up what I meant to say in serious formal situations. So I know "what's the worst that can happen" and look at casual chats with people in the street with very little seriousness because of it
Embarrassments are a necessary part of learning a language. The way I would deal with both of your situations would be to confront those people next time I see them and apologise sincerely for any offence I may have caused and explain what I was trying to say. I'd tell the waitress that instead of "no" I meant to say "absolutely, definitely positively yes" and maybe get a giggle or something - taking advantage of the situation. You never know if you don't try! I use the same approach with languages and meeting girls; I'm happy to get 50 no-s and flirt with a large number, just enjoying the conversations, rather than the goal being to meet the girl of my dreams on a particular night. This approach actually leads to more success than genuinely trying really hard. As I said, not aiming for perfection in most situations, actually yields much better results
Even if they didn't forgive you in your situations, it would clear the air somewhat and show that maybe they aren't worth wasting your time on if they hold grudges for so long. Relationships can be mended my friend, give it a try
You also have to embrace embarrassment in the same way as I suggested for language mistakes. Don't take yourself so seriously I'm sure there are cases when you have spoken Thai and been very proud of it; you should focus on that!
Just my two "satang"!
Posted 2010-02-20 23:32:56
irishpolyglot, on 2010-02-15 11:32:05, said: @tombkk Thanks for the good luck wishes! Could you give me some examples of multi-syllable unique words in Thai? I really don't think it could compare with European languages - I mean Thai seems to prefer compound words like all the ones with ใจ (heart) for example that are absolutely unique words in European languages. Maybe most of the language doesn't do this, but a lot of vocabulary I've come across so far seems to be just single or double syllables or compound words.
First word that comes to mind is mahawittiyalay (university), and sorry I cannot type Thai on this keybaord.
Maha = big
Wittiyalay = college
I'm sure you can break it into more pieces, but I am not a linguist. I understand that words coming from Chinese are usually mono-syllabic, but words from Sanskrit or Pali are not.
I also agree with todd-daniels and his milk examples. Meanings of word change when put into different contexts. When you learn Chinese, you will learn one-, two- three-, four-syllable expresssions, and the meaning changes. You don't just add the meaning of the different syllables. Because of that, there is a school that says that Chinese is not a mono-syllabic language. While they are in the minority, there is no school (that I know of) that says Thai is a mono-syllabic language. It isn't, never mind what you replied to todd-daniels.
Unless you are an academic linguist who is developing a new theory, that is. But you have to go a lot deeper to become credible with this new theory in the academic world.
Posted 2010-02-21 22:08:04
I have been following Irishpolyglot's progress on this website and his own blog for a few weeks and found it very interesting. I have been learning Thai for 4 years and have got to the point of being able to get by in Thai. I have learned all the tone rules and can read and speak with correct tones though often it doesnt come out correctly.
I have found his positive approach refreshing. I have always worked on the premise that negativity is the worst enemy to learning a new language. I can't agree more with him that being able to laugh at yourself, not take yourself too seriously and not be worried about making mistakes. I have a number of Thai friends who go out of their way to help me with my Thai because I at least try. They speak slowly, correct me when I make mistakes and most importantly laugh with me, not at me, when I make errors. I have struck up some really good friendships because I try to speak the language.
I have always found that learning new vocab is a chore and I nearly always forget a new word the day after I have learned it. I read with interest his blog about making stories up for each new word. Since doing that I have been adding 5 new words a day and I can remember them all. Plus it's fun. Here is an example: The word 'to wear' is: sooam. Word association for Eng is: sue em. So I have this picture of the Eng footie team wearing Georgio Armani Suits to the world cup but not realising that they are fake (probably bought in Thailand) Georgio Armani threatens to 'sue em' for wearing the fake suits. He offers a settlement figure which will only 'rise' if the FA refuse to pay promptly. So I have the word, the meaning and the rising tone in 1 story.
Keep the news coming Irish. Your positivity inspires me rather than making me compare myself to you.
tina2112anit
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Posted 2010-02-22 00:42:57
There's a video on youtube that helps with distinguishing tones. It's a really good starting point since the same word in different tones mean completely different things.
Go to youtube and search for "Learn Thai Language: Distinguishing between the tones". There's also a self-test video as well. (The video is by youtube user tina2112anit)
Hope this helps!
Posted 2010-02-22 09:50:59
Thanks so much for that comment Toffeeman!! You applied the association technique I suggested perfectly! I love your colourful association for "to wear". Others who argue that this is too much work, would to well to note that making such illustrative examples comes very naturally very quickly after practice, and you only need to use the association a couple of times and then it's burnt into memory so you never slow down and just know the word immediately.
For learning the tones with words, rather than include them in an association, I try to learn simply the FIRST LETTER of the word (i.e. the Thai symbol). In most cases this is all you need since the rest (short or long vowel, ending consonant) is included in the pronunciation and makes it clear what tone it is if you are familiar with the rules. This would also help in actually reading and writing the word. Of course this changes if there is a tone mark (in which case your rise association would come in very useful!) For words starting with a silent ห, I'd add something representing that symbol into the association rather than the tone itself; building on my ability to read and write as well as say the word.
I'm very glad you see the point of my blog - I get frustrated when people just say "it's all well for YOU, but [excuse #1, excuse #2...] is MY situation." A positive attitude is free for everyone
I've only got just over a week left here - I still have one final somewhat useful achievement to make in Thai that I'll be focussing on over the weekend (been working double time since I got back to Bangkok unfortunately) and showing on the blog, but otherwise I have put in very little work into learning Thai (this stay was my break; I will be speaking very little English on extremely difficult full-immersion missions for most of this year), so I'm insistent that it isn't that bad if I can see what I've seen in nothing more than about 10-15 hours of cumulative work. The main thing I've achieved in this stay is gaining the confidence in seeing that Thai and, more generally, reading a strange script and getting a basic understanding of tones is not intimidating at all. Confidence is worth *thousands* of words of vocabulary.
Posted 2010-02-22 15:01:42
Toffeeman, on 2010-02-21 07:08:04, said: I have found his positive approach refreshing. I have always worked on the premise that negativity is the worst enemy to learning a new language. I can't agree more with him about being able to laugh at yourself, not take yourself too seriously and not be worried about making mistakes.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. For best results, learning Thai or any other language should be fun; not a chore. When I find things getting tedious or I start getting frustrated, that's when I know it's time to put the book down or turn the computer off and go do something else. After a break my attitude usually improves, I'm less stressed and I'm able to concentrate on learning once again.
It's when I start getting mad at myself for not doing as well as I feel I should when those poisonous negative thoughts about giving up arise. Nothing keeps me wanting to continue learning more as much as having just had a really enjoyable, light hearted and friendly conversation with a Thai person I have just met. After all, making new friends and enjoying the culture is why I wanted to start learning Thai in the first place. As I progress I try to give myself a little positive reinforcement each time in the form of a little self praise. I am not by nature a conceited person who goes around blowing his own horn but this tried and true method works well for me just like it did with Pavlov's dog.
Posted 2010-02-22 15:30:39
Ratsima, on 2010-02-19 12:30:48, said: irishpolyglot said: Don’t Be Scared – What’s The Worst That Could Happen?
Here's a couple recent experiences:
1 - For a couple of years I tutored two Thai sisters in English. I'd met them at their parents' minimart. They're a very nice and friendly family. Although I don't tutor them anymore, I still used to stop in to buy a few beers and have a chat. Shortly after the New Year I went in and the entire family was there. I was chatting with the sisters in English and trying to talk to the parents in Thai. I must have said something awful because all four of their jaws dropped, the conversation stopped and it was clear it was time for me to leave. Next time I went in they all ignored me. If I see them on the road, it's eyes down. So, for one error in Thai a very nice five year relationship with a Thai family is finished.
2 - I used to frequent a Thai restaurant near my home. The menu is in Thai and because I can read it they assume I can speak Thai. I cannot. One day one of the waitresses with whom I like to flirt a bit asked me a question in Thai. I thought she asked if I was waiting for a friend. So, I said "No." Her face went blank and she walked away. A moment later one of the waitress who can speak English said to me, "Why did you do that? She just asked if she could be your friend and you said 'No'." It used to be that when I rode my bicycle past that place the waitresses would always wave and smile. Now they just give me a dirty look. Needless to say, I don't dine there any longer. So, for one error in Thai what was once an enjoyable dining experience is now kaput.
These recent experiences simply reinforced my reticence to make mistakes.
I find this strange.
I have made some huge clangers when talking with not just friends, but also people I had not met before, and in each situation people have never ignored me after making a mistake, more like rolled around on the floor laughing in some cases, and correcting me.. and believe me, some of them have been huge.
Did you not explain to the waitress in the restaurant that you had misunderstood the original question ? Or did you just leave it at that ? Why wouldn't you explain and make right ??
Totster 
Posted 2010-02-23 01:44:04
irishpolyglot, on 2010-02-22 09:50:59, said: For learning the tones with words, rather than include them in an association, I try to learn simply the FIRST LETTER of the word (i.e. the Thai symbol).
Written Thai uses an alphabet, with consonants and vowels, i.e., "letters" - not "symbols."
One would think that a person studying written Thai for seven weeks with the avowed presumption of "fluentin3months," would have learned that much.
It would also not be too much to expect that a self-described "polyglot" would have by now noticed multi-syllable words in Thai. As Rikker mentioned, nearly 25 per cent of Thai vocabulary is of Indic origin, a significant proportion of which are not monosyllabic.
Lest some knees jerk too quickly, I do applaud the effort being made, and especially his stated intention to inspire some among the vast multitudes of lazy farangs to actually make some effort to learn the language of the country that they profess to "love." Following this thread from the start with curiosity, I held my own counsel about what seemed to be clearly outlandish claims - in order to give it a chance to play out.
But his own hubris invites critical appraisal: when one blithely advertises himself as capable of being "fluent" in a given time span, any and all subsequent excuses on the order of "well, I didn't really mean fluent" ring hollow, indeed.
หน้าด้านจังเลย
To wit: I notice that this particularly bold assertion has not been revisited (perhaps in the hope that it will be forgotten):
* I plan to be able to spontaneously read aloud ANY TEXT (that I've never seen before, e.g. newspaper article) by the end of the 8 weeks (in such a way that it's understood well) and have some level of conversation (approximately lower intermediate). I'm not aiming for parrot-level with just a store of words and phrases I can repeat; I want to actually communicate....
ไม่มีทาง - regardless of the "revolutionary learning method."
And the statement: "Could you give me some examples of multi-syllable unique words in Thai? I really don't think it could compare with European languages - I mean Thai seems to prefer compound words like all the ones with ใจ (heart) for example that are absolutely unique words in European languages. Maybe most of the language doesn't do this, but a lot of vocabulary I've come across so far seems to be just single or double syllables or compound words" - displays an irrefutably low level, probably even far lower than some of us mere mortals who do not publicly anoint ourselves "polyglot" within the same timeframe.
Nothing revolutionary has been demonstrated herewith.
How does this "method" resolve the pronunciation of Indic words, in their various permutations? In the reading aloud of unfamiliar texts, how does he know when the final consonant of one syllable doubles as the beginning consonant of the next - and when it doesn't? How can he recognize when the pronunciation changes, depending upon which word follows in a given phrase?
What is the pronunciation of ประวัติศาสตร์ ?
One who has not been even able to recognize polysyllabic words in the language is unlikely to be able to read street signs aloud and be "understood well," much less a random headline in a newspaper. "ANY TEXT," indeed...
I do wish you the best of luck in all your language-learning endeavours, sir.
But perhaps a modicum of humility would serve you well in the exercise. As mentioned by another poster, the culture is the key to Thai language. Consulting some age-old wisdom should be beneficial: หมาขี้ไม่มีใครยกหาง
Posted 2010-02-23 04:52:38
tina2112anit, on 2010-02-22 00:42:57, said: There's a video on youtube that helps with distinguishing tones. It's a really good starting point since the same word in different tones mean completely different things.
Hope this helps!
No, it doesn't.
In Thai, there is no such thing as "the same word in different tones." They are different words.
Posted 2010-02-23 14:29:24
@mangkorn Boy when you go off on a rant you really go for it
I agree, we should find this irish "polyglot" fellow and lynch him immediately and display his head on a pillar to warn others with such audacity
Posted 2010-02-23 16:02:06
Dear "Polyglot boy" (and I think - unlike you - I have a right to call you that) - we all wish you well, we hope you will succeed and add some positive knowledge to anyones ability in learning Thai.
But - so far - as most "long term Thai learners" would probably agree you have only shown us that "you are full of it" - mostly of yourself.
Edited by Parvis, 2010-02-23 16:03:09.
Posted 2010-02-24 08:29:52
mangkorn - do you hang around bars and pounce on farangs that pronounce สวย ซวย?
chillax.
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