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[billd766]

Does anyone know of a good workshop who would bore out my Phantom from 200 to 250cc and replace the chain and rear sprocket with one about 4 teeth less?

I live near Khampaeng Phet but there is nobody around here who can do it.

I am quite happy to travel to most places as I am retired and I can turn it into a holiday as well.

Thanks in advance (hopefully).

[dave_boo]

There's a nice bike shop that I've used in Nakhon Sawan; mbox knows where it is (in fact turned me on to him), but I don't know if he'd be able to do such an upgrade for you.  I'd reckon that it'd be fairly easy to source a Honda Rebel piston; getting a true bore and hoping that the bottom end holds up may be a different story.

If the bolt pattern and offset is the same-same as the CBR's, it'd be a simple task to get that replaced as well.  Just make sure that you get the front and your chain at the same time.  In actuality, replacing the front with a one tooth smaller sprocket would do nearly the same, plus you could then tweak the rear sprocket's number of teeth to get just the ride you want.

[billd766]

dave_boo, on 2010-01-23 00:42:45, said:

There's a nice bike shop that I've used in Nakhon Sawan; mbox knows where it is (in fact turned me on to him), but I don't know if he'd be able to do such an upgrade for you. I'd reckon that it'd be fairly easy to source a Honda Rebel piston; getting a true bore and hoping that the bottom end holds up may be a different story.

If the bolt pattern and offset is the same-same as the CBR's, it'd be a simple task to get that replaced as well. Just make sure that you get the front and your chain at the same time. In actuality, replacing the front with a one tooth smaller sprocket would do nearly the same, plus you could then tweak the rear sprocket's number of teeth to get just the ride you want.

Hi Dave

mbox sent me a pm this morning and we will meet in NS one day this week.

I am not sure about the front sprocket as I would have thought the rear would have been easier to do but if the guy can bore it out for me changing the front sprocket will be easy as the bike will be down anyway, then after that the rear sprocket should be easy to do any time.

I am trying to boost the Phantom as at the moment I have some other plans to spend the money on that I was going to use for a Steed.

[Bastogne]

I wonder if you can easily upgrade your Phantom to 250cc. I think it's not a usual mater.

The Phantom engine is one of the developments of the single cylinder engine CB100/125. These can be found:
In 125cc for the CB125S, XL125, 56.5mm piston.
In 185cc with the Xl 185, 63mm piston.
In 200cc with the XL200, the XR200 and TLR200, 65.5mm piston.
In 223cc in the FTR223, CR230 and SL230, 65.5 mm piston.

The Phantom share the same stroke with the 223cc but for legal reasons such as driving license in Singapore it was fitted with a 62mm piston to stay under 200 cc.

So, for me, the only solution you can expect is to fit a genuine 65.5mm XR 200 piston. It is common here to use the cheap 67 mm piston from the 5HP stationery engine Honda G200 but is not reliable.

Five years ago I bought the XR200 piston complete with gaskets for about 1.500 Baht. If big bore is not possible you need to machine a new sleeve for about 1.000 Baht. So with the cost of labour you have to spend 4.000 to 5.000 Baht to get 26 more cubic centimeters.

It is possible to reach 250cc and this was made on competition HRC trial bikes TLR250 and TLR250S, with 70mm piston.

These bikes were not made for long run distance but to work most of the time at low revs.

This 70mm piston is 2 mm lower than the 200/220 for less compression and more torque.

The 250 barrel as very large fins and the engine was bored to the maximum with a thickness of the sleeve from only 1mm which means overheating. Above this you need to open the engine box/crank to bore the crank to the limit for the larger sleeve.

I used to do this 250cc conversion many times on the trial bikes I restore and can give more information but I prefer to advice you not to go so far for reliability.


NB. Please excuse my French style syntax.

[billd766]

Bastogne, on 2010-01-24 11:13:08, said:

I wonder if you can easily upgrade your Phantom to 250cc. I think it's not a usual mater.

The Phantom engine is one of the developments of the single cylinder engine CB100/125. These can be found:
In 125cc for the CB125S, XL125, 56.5mm piston.
In 185cc with the Xl 185, 63mm piston.
In 200cc with the XL200, the XR200 and TLR200, 65.5mm piston.
In 223cc in the FTR223, CR230 and SL230, 65.5 mm piston.

The Phantom share the same stroke with the 223cc but for legal reasons such as driving license in Singapore it was fitted with a 62mm piston to stay under 200 cc.

So, for me, the only solution you can expect is to fit a genuine 65.5mm XR 200 piston. It is common here to use the cheap 67 mm piston from the 5HP stationery engine Honda G200 but is not reliable.

Five years ago I bought the XR200 piston complete with gaskets for about 1.500 Baht. If big bore is not possible you need to machine a new sleeve for about 1.000 Baht. So with the cost of labour you have to spend 4.000 to 5.000 Baht to get 26 more cubic centimeters.

It is possible to reach 250cc and this was made on competition HRC trial bikes TLR250 and TLR250S, with 70mm piston.

These bikes were not made for long run distance but to work most of the time at low revs.

This 70mm piston is 2 mm lower than the 200/220 for less compression and more torque.

The 250 barrel as very large fins and the engine was bored to the maximum with a thickness of the sleeve from only 1mm which means overheating. Above this you need to open the engine box/crank to bore the crank to the limit for the larger sleeve.

I used to do this 250cc conversion many times on the trial bikes I restore and can give more information but I prefer to advice you not to go so far for reliability.


NB. Please excuse my French style syntax.

Hi Bastogne

Thank you for youer kind and detailed reply.

It is the first real information I have had about the bore out.

Where did you get the work done or did you do it yourself?

I live about 1/2 way between Bangkok and Chiang Mai and it is about a 7 hour trip to BKK including stops.

What would you suggest that I do to get the best results.

I am about 116kg and riding normally I cruise about 90 kmh comfortably but I am probably on about 85% throttle with no quick response from the bike should I need one.

I am also thinking about replacing the rear sprocket and chain as well to give me that little bit extra kmh for the same rpm.

I am looking at reliability which if it over heats I am not going to get.

One guy in Phuket has had the 250cc bore out done for about 6,000 baht and seems fairly happy and there is another guy in Rayong who is thinking about it but he was told 9,000 baht.

I am not worrying too much about the price but I am having a problem finding someone to do the work.

I am meeting a friend in Nakhon Sawan this week who knows a guy down there who has workewd on bigger bikes and is OK.

I would be grateful for any help that you can give me.

[HangDongRider]

[quote name='Bastogne' date='2010-01-24 12:13:08' post='3290162']
[size=3]I wonder if you can easily upgrade your Phantom to 250cc. I think it's not a usual mater.[/size]

[size=3]The Phantom engine is one of the developments of the single cylinder engine CB100/125. These can be found:
[/size][size=3]In 125cc for the CB125S, XL125, 56.5mm piston.
[/size][size=3]In 185cc with the Xl 185, 63mm piston.
[/size][size=3]In 200cc with the XL200, the XR200 and TLR200, 65.5mm piston.
[/size][size=3]In 223cc in the FTR223, CR230 and SL230, 65.5 mm piston.[/size]

[size=3]The Phantom share the same stroke with the 223cc but for legal reasons such as driving license in Singapore it was fitted with a 62mm piston to stay under 200 cc.[/size]

[size=3]So, for me, the only solution you can expect is to fit a genuine 65.5mm XR 200 piston. It is common here to use the cheap 67 mm piston from the 5HP stationery engine Honda G200 but is not reliable. [/size]

[size=3]Five years ago I bought the XR200 piston complete with gaskets for about 1.500 Baht. If big bore is not possible you need to machine a new sleeve for about 1.000 Baht. So with the cost of labour you have to spend 4.000 to 5.000 Baht to get 26 more cubic centimeters.[/size]

[size=3]It is possible to reach 250cc and this was made on competition HRC trial bikes TLR250 and TLR250S, with 70mm piston.[/size]

[size=3]These bikes were not made for long run distance but to work most of the time at low revs.
[/size][size=3]
This 70mm piston is 2 mm lower than the 200/220 for less compression and more torque.
[/size][size=3]
The 250 barrel as very large fins and the engine was bored to the maximum with a thickness of the sleeve from only 1mm which means overheating. Above this you need to open the engine box/crank to bore the crank to the limit for the larger sleeve.
[/size][size=3]
I used to do this 250cc conversion many times on the trial bikes I restore and can give more information but I prefer to advice you not to go so far for reliability.
[/size]

[size=3]NB. Please excuse my French style syntax.[/size]



Yes Bastogne, you right. The best way is to use the 223ccm piston. I have a CRF 230 in Germany and in Thailand a XR 200 and a TLR and........ the diferent is giant. And 223 is enough. I borded it up also to the BRP Big Bore Piston from USA. But it was really shit and we tuned it back. The engine is a longstroke and has no oilfilter (yes, I know, there´s a small piece at the oilscrew). So, don´t ride it like hel_l for hours, take good oil and change it offen. The engine is hondalike good for a very long long life. In a chopper like the Phantom it´s undestroyable.
Nearby your english is much better than mine.

[PeaceBlondie]

Our Phantom 200 was as slow as a 135 Yamaha. Not high performance. I doubt the Rebel 250 is, either.

[Soi Sauce]

^
Too right. I've got a Rebel. It's agood comfy cruiser, not fast. If you want performance, move up to a bike that gives it, not change one not designed to do such.

Check www.mocyc.com to find plenty of examplres

Edited by Soi Sauce, 2010-01-26 22:53:13.

[Bastogne]

+1 with SOI SAUCE

Another website for second hand bikes and cars mostly classic: www thaiscooter.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=95 in Thai langage but the brand names and the pictures can be read

I was waiting for more information because although I know a lot about X125, XR200, TLR200/250 and RTL250S, I had never see the internal parts of the Phantom.

Yesterday, I went to the shop of HONDA Sengchai, biggest spare parts dealer in C-M on Khao Nawarat street (opposite Royal PRINCE college).

I was lucky to see a Phantom engine. It was in very bad state with connecting rod broken followed by piston and cylinder. The bike had 46.000 km on the counter and the piston had been replaced before the big failure. I was discussing with the mechanic men and was told that:

1 The final drive transmission it is more easy to open the crank cover(3 screws) and change the front sprocket for less than 100 Baht (from Honda NSR150 chain type 520 available in 12 to 15 teeth)
2 They never heard about big bore on Phantom.
3. They are quite sure the Phantom engine is not made in Japan nor in Thailand and believe it's made in China.
4. The manufacturing quality is lesser than similar Honda JAPAN engine FTR223 or CRF230.

We toke the outside diameter from the sleeve which is 69mm so you can it is possible to fit a 65.5mm piston to get 223 cc. I estimate the price between 3.000 and 4.000 Baht for parts and labor (just open the top end and rebore).
To get 250cc with 70mm piston you need to fit a bigger sleeve in the cylinder and open the engine to bore the crankcase to the limit of 72mm and will cost between 6.000 and 7.000 Baht. But this was made only for short ride trial bikes and need oil cooling.

Anyway, you will never get a lot of extra power on this engine. In addition the Phantom is quite heavy with 140 Kg (100Kg for the CRF230). Sure it's not Reynolds tube for the frame.

My advice: ride your Phantom like this and eventually change the final drive transmission.
The Phantom is good for beginners and sufficient for normal use and what is nice, you can sell it for a good price on the second hand market.

In Thailand the choice for new motorbikes or cars is very poor.
If chopper is your style of riding try to find a Virago 250(21HP and 139Kg) or a Steed 600 (36HP and 200Kg) better in standard trim than shinning outside and sh… inside. I dislike the (overpriced with book) Honda steed 400 (30HP and 200 Kg).
If you like touring with good handling and comfort, the best choice for me is the Honda CB400.

Better choice is a question of budget and time to find the good horse.

[aitch52]

Interesting subject fellas, I am with the consensus here, accept the Phantom for what it is and not mess about with rebores. When I am cruising at 90 - 95 and open up the throttle there is a sufficient response to keep me out of trouble. So I guess I will live with it and maybe look for something a bit bigger at a later date, Steed looks good

[icequeen]

I have it on good authority from the Honda dealer that this year the Phantom will be upgraded to a 250cc twin. So, maybe better to wait and trade the old one in which is what I will be doing...........just an idea

[billd766]

Bastogne, on 2010-01-28 11:50:59, said:

+1 with SOI SAUCE

Another website for second hand bikes and cars mostly classic: www thaiscooter.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=95 in Thai langage but the brand names and the pictures can be read
I was waiting for more information because although I know a lot about X125, XR200, TLR200/250 and RTL250S, I had never see the internal parts of the Phantom.

Yesterday, I went to the shop of HONDA Sengchai, biggest spare parts dealer in C-M on Khao Nawarat street (opposite Royal PRINCE college).

I was lucky to see a Phantom engine. It was in very bad state with connecting rod broken followed by piston and cylinder. The bike had 46.000 km on the counter and the piston had been replaced before the big failure. I was discussing with the mechanic men and was told that:
1 The final drive transmission it is more easy to open the crank cover(3 screws) and change the front sprocket for less than 100 Baht (from Honda NSR150 chain type 520 available in 12 to 15 teeth)
2 They never heard about big bore on Phantom.
3. They are quite sure the Phantom engine is not made in Japan nor in Thailand and believe it's made in China.
4. The manufacturing quality is lesser than similar Honda JAPAN engine FTR223 or CRF230.

We toke the outside diameter from the sleeve which is 69mm so you can it is possible to fit a 65.5mm piston to get 223 cc. I estimate the price between 3.000 and 4.000 Baht for parts and labor (just open the top end and rebore).
To get 250cc with 70mm piston you need to fit a bigger sleeve in the cylinder and open the engine to bore the crankcase to the limit of 72mm and will cost between 6.000 and 7.000 Baht. But this was made only for short ride trial bikes and need oil cooling.

Anyway, you will never get a lot of extra power on this engine. In addition the Phantom is quite heavy with 140 Kg (100Kg for the CRF230). Sure it's not Reynolds tube for the frame.

My advice: ride your Phantom like this and eventually change the final drive transmission.
The Phantom is good for beginners and sufficient for normal use and what is nice, you can sell it for a good price on the second hand market.

In Thailand the choice for new motorbikes or cars is very poor.
If chopper is your style of riding try to find a Virago 250(21HP and 139Kg) or a Steed 600 (36HP and 200Kg) better in standard trim than shinning outside and sh… inside. I dislike the (overpriced with book) Honda steed 400 (30HP and 200 Kg).
If you like touring with good handling and comfort, the best choice for me is the Honda CB400.

Better choice is a question of budget and time to find the good horse.

Hi Bastogne

Thanks once again for more information.

Unfortunately for some time to come I will be spending my motorcycle money on building some bungalows for rent at my wife's business, then building a farang kitchen for me at home, hopefully followed by building an immigration system to pump 350 metres from the klong under the road to a holding pond and then another 250 metre system to pump up to the top of my land so that we can irrigate on the home land.

Do you think the guys that you were talking with could bore my Phantom out to 223cc?

I would be quite happy to ride up to Chiang Mai to get it done.

Cheers

Bill

[eljeque]

Can anyone advise the OP on possibly changing his intake or exhaust to get a little more power as well?

[billd766]

eljeque, on 2010-01-30 17:37:30, said:

Can anyone advise the OP on possibly changing his intake or exhaust to get a little more power as well?

I never thought about that and as I am a FUB every little helps.








FUB
Fat Ugly ...............................

[aitch52]

Thread below is about reviews of the Honda Shadow (Phantom 200) in Australia, one reviewer mentions in the write up that there are restrictor caps in the exhaust, he reckoned he pulled them out and got a power boost, dunno how true that is, or how it would affect engine exhaust vacuum balance, it's a thought though. I considered having a look but the screws where welded solid and it was too hot a day to mess with it. May give it a go though.

http://www.productreview.com.au/showitem.p...0686&next=4

[billd766]

aitch52, on 2010-02-01 13:51:05, said:

Thread below is about reviews of the Honda Shadow (Phantom 200) in Australia, one reviewer mentions in the write up that there are restrictor caps in the exhaust, he reckoned he pulled them out and got a power boost, dunno how true that is, or how it would affect engine exhaust vacuum balance, it's a thought though. I considered having a look but the screws where welded solid and it was too hot a day to mess with it. May give it a go though.

http://www.productreview.com.au/showitem.p...0686&next=4

Thanks for that.

Maybe I will find a non stock pipe without baffles and see what that can do.

The noise won't bother me too much as I am a bit deaf in my right ear and most of the noise should be behind me anyway.

Edited by billd766, 2010-02-01 14:06:36.

[ImageDude]

billd766, on 2010-02-01 14:05:21, said:

aitch52, on 2010-02-01 13:51:05, said:

Thread below is about reviews of the Honda Shadow (Phantom 200) in Australia, one reviewer mentions in the write up that there are restrictor caps in the exhaust, he reckoned he pulled them out and got a power boost, dunno how true that is, or how it would affect engine exhaust vacuum balance, it's a thought though. I considered having a look but the screws where welded solid and it was too hot a day to mess with it. May give it a go though.

http://www.productreview.com.au/showitem.p...0686&next=4

Thanks for that.

Maybe I will find a non stock pipe without baffles and see what that can do.

The noise won't bother me too much as I am a bit deaf in my right ear and most of the noise should be behind me anyway.

Hi Bill, I am trying to source an after market air filter, if you have any success let me know and I will do the same. With regard to the exhaust I will wait until it needs replacing, for now I have knocked out the first baffle. It made it a little more 'throatier' but I didn't notice any improvement in performance other than it can breathe a little bit better.

I have now completed the 'custom' job on my ride, check it out.

 Custom_Phantom_a.jpg   160.33K   62 downloads

Cheers
ImageDude

[Bastogne]

It takes a few days to collect the correct information from the two biggest Honda in C-M and give you a correct answer.

Good news: a decent workshop in any province can open the engine, let bore the cylinder and fix the new parts but you have to provide yourself the parts or give the right order.
If you go further in the modifications, you have to find a good machining shop to modify the crank and lathe a new sleeve.

Bad news: although the engine as many common specifications with the Honda Japan 223cc engine the stroke is not the same 66.2mm for the 223 engine but only 62.2 for the Phantom.
So if you use a 66mm piston you will get only 212 cc.
It will cost less than 2.000 Baht but is it worth the job for only 15cc more?

Alternative: it's possible to crank to 66.2mm and with a 66mm piston get 226cc but you must open the engine, move the connecting rod crank pin and make a notch in the connecting rod to let free space between the rod and the gear box.
In this case the total expense with new piston, gaskets, oil, small parts and labor must be less than 4.000 Baht.

Other solution more hazardous in terms of reliability for road use: when the crankcase is open you can bore the crankcase to 72mm to give room to fit a larger sleeve for a 69mm piston and get 248cc (70mm is possible but is the limit. For me it is usual to make these modifications on the trial bikes is am busy to restore here in C-M).
In this case the expense will not reach 5.000 Baht (6.000 Baht if the oil feeding must be modified).

For information:
the spare parts are stamped "made in Indonesia" so I suppose that the Phantom engine is made by or for P.T. ASTRA HONDA Indonesia.
This engine is also used on the Honda TIGER 200 a touring bike sold in Indonesia and Malaysia,
on the trail bike Honda XR200 sold only in the Philippines,
on CTX200 Bushlander in South Africa and Australia.
Why are the touring bike and the trail bike not available here is another question about the automotive market rules and marketing in Thailand.

Thanks for the question. I had the opportunity to learn more about this engine.

If someone expects to sell a 200 Phantom (the 6 speed engine not the first 200 5 speed) in bad condition, I could be interested to buy it and make the full 248cc conversion plus an oil cooler, camshaft, valves and timing. It will be interesting to lease the bike to a friend rental shop with the intention to test the reliability of the mods.

[billd766]

Hi Bastogne

Thank you for the further updated information and I really appreciate the work you have put into the reply.

I think now I will leave things alone and the engine as it is.

I was talking to a guy down in Nakhon Sawan about it and he doesn't want to know but suggested "somewhere" in BKK.

At the end of the day I can live with it but it would have been nice if I could have got a bit more out of it for a low price but there is always next year if I keep saving my satangs.

Thank you once again.

[billd766]

ImageDude, on 2010-02-02 09:13:38, said:

billd766, on 2010-02-01 14:05:21, said:

aitch52, on 2010-02-01 13:51:05, said:

Thread below is about reviews of the Honda Shadow (Phantom 200) in Australia, one reviewer mentions in the write up that there are restrictor caps in the exhaust, he reckoned he pulled them out and got a power boost, dunno how true that is, or how it would affect engine exhaust vacuum balance, it's a thought though. I considered having a look but the screws where welded solid and it was too hot a day to mess with it. May give it a go though.

http://www.productreview.com.au/showitem.p...0686&next=4

Thanks for that.

Maybe I will find a non stock pipe without baffles and see what that can do.

The noise won't bother me too much as I am a bit deaf in my right ear and most of the noise should be behind me anyway.

Hi Bill, I am trying to source an after market air filter, if you have any success let me know and I will do the same. With regard to the exhaust I will wait until it needs replacing, for now I have knocked out the first baffle. It made it a little more 'throatier' but I didn't notice any improvement in performance other than it can breathe a little bit better.

I have now completed the 'custom' job on my ride, check it out.

 Custom_Phantom_a.jpg   160.33K   62 downloads

Cheers
ImageDude

Yours looks nice.

I will post a picture of mine after I have washed it which should be this month if I make the time.

I have asked around here for uprated tyres and a "special" exhaust and get referred to Khampaeng Phet.

The Honda guy in Nakhon Sawan had no ides about reboring or after market pipes.

[Powerband]

I'd get the bore done, then the chain so you can see what the gain is.

What sprocket ratio are you using now? Going down 4 teeth may be too much. Thats a huge jump, like night and day.

[billd766]

Powerband, on 2010-02-04 20:41:56, said:

I'd get the bore done, then the chain so you can see what the gain is.

What sprocket ratio are you using now? Going down 4 teeth may be too much. Thats a huge jump, like night and day.

The problem with getting the bore done is actually finding somebody who has already had it done (preferably more than one person if there are more), getting their feedback then finding someone to actually do the job well.

I live about half way between Bangkok and Chiang Mai and so far I have only found 1 guy (in Phuket) who has had it doe and ir took him a couple of weeks.

As far as I know my bike is standard so the sprocket and chain are original.

[Powerband]

On second thought try the sprockets first, that may be all you need.

Go down a front tooth, or up 2-4 rear. I rented a phantom in Vhiang Rai once and drove to Chiang Saen. I have a feeling the gearing was to tall.

If you find a competent mechanic you wont need a new chain, links can be added/subtracted.

I really encourage trying the sprocket change first. Front will be cheaper.

For example if your currently running:

15/38 =2.5333 ratio

and you try 14/38 =2.7142

you can do 15/42=2.8

In both examples your acceleration will be about 25%-30% quicker.

Sometimes if the ratio is too tall, it will also impede top speed -restricting you unless there is enough torque, at a higher rotation speed it may even be a bit faster, problem is this bike doesn't really like to rev high.

I dont know what your ratio is so this is just an example.

[billd766]

Powerband, on 2010-02-05 20:07:11, said:

On second thought try the sprockets first, that may be all you need.

Go down a front tooth, or up 2-4 rear. I rented a phantom in Vhiang Rai once and drove to Chiang Saen. I have a feeling the gearing was to tall.

If you find a competent mechanic you wont need a new chain, links can be added/subtracted.

I really encourage trying the sprocket change first. Front will be cheaper.

For example if your currently running:

15/38 =2.5333 ratio

and you try 14/38 =2.7142

you can do 15/42=2.8

In both examples your acceleration will be about 25%-30% quicker.

Sometimes if the ratio is too tall, it will also impede top speed -restricting you unless there is enough torque, at a higher rotation speed it may even be a bit faster, problem is this bike doesn't really like to rev high.

I dont know what your ratio is so this is just an example.

I will try to find out what the ratios are which is probably the easy bit but the hard bit I suspect will be trying to find the competent mechanic.

From asking around it looks as though I will have to go to either BKK or Chiang Mai which is not a big problem.

[billd766]

I went into my local Honda place this morning and asked the price of a new exhaust pipe, thinking that I can get it cut open and take some of the baffles out.

The price of a new Honda Phantom TA 200 is around 88,000 baht and a new exhaust pipe will cost me just over 10,000 baht.

I was polite as I could see the price in their book and luckily I was sitting down as well.

I will take a trip to Khampaeng Phet next week and see if I can find someone to make me a new pipe with less baffles, less back pressure and more noise.