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[udon]

Bull, on 2005-05-04 13:04:07, said:

Jatujak should be ok for ordinary plants in terms of price and choice. Otherwise head up for Rangsit, which is where I buy most of the stuff.

I work in Bangkok as a landscape designer, and it is not rare that a client asks us to renovate the garden area before renting/selling the property. I have no idea of how this works in properties to be sold, but I can tell you it works wonders in property for rent.

Bull

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

G'day Bull.
Thanks for that admission, expect a few PMs from us Dummies.  

[Jai Dee]

chownah, on 2005-05-04 19:38:38, said:

Jai Dee, Tell me about this frangipani tree.  Is it where frangipani incense comes from?  Do the flowers smell really good, like the incense.  What's the Thai name for it.  If you can figure out how to write the actual Thai letters for it please do.

Chownah, this website will give you all you need to know about the frangipani, or plumeria.  Sorry, I do not know Thai script but I can give you the English pronunciation of the name if you like...

The old Thai name for this plant was "lan thom"... but it had a sad meaning in Thai so not many people bought it or planted it.

Some years ago, the King of Thailand changed the name to "lelawadee" which has a beautiful meaning... so now, it is a popular plant in Thai gardens.

The plant has been cross-bred to produce many different coloured varieties, but only the original white flowered variety has the beautiful scent.  I can't help you with the incense though.

[stevemarkwell]

Oh, plumeria!  I didn't know the other names for it.  A lot of people grow them indoors in colder areas, but they tend to stay pretty small; I couldn't believe how big the first ones I saw in the tropics were!  Really a beautiful plant.  They grow readily from cuttings too, which is great, because you buy one tree and you can propagate as many 'clones' as you like.

Edited by stevemarkwell, 2005-05-06 11:20:00.

[chownah]

Jai Dee, on 2005-05-06 09:38:59, said:

Chownah, this website will give you all you need to know about the frangipani, or plumeria.  Sorry, I do not know Thai script but I can give you the English pronunciation of the name if you like...

The old Thai name for this plant was "lan thom"... but it had a sad meaning in Thai so not many people bought it or planted it.

Some years ago, the King of Thailand changed the name to "lelawadee" which has a beautiful meaning... so now, it is a popular plant in Thai gardens.

The plant has been cross-bred to produce many different coloured varieties, but only the original white flowered variety has the beautiful scent.  I can't help you with the incense though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jai Dee,
Thanks for the link.  I guess the old saying is true, "Lan thorn by some other name would smell more sweet."
Chownah

Edited by chownah, 2005-05-06 13:12:21.

[sbk]

Actually it isn't true that only the white one is scented. I have the rose pink one which smells very sweet and a deep red one which smells kind of cinamonny (like red hot candies  if you are american or canadian). Both of the scents are quite strong and perfume the garden when the tree is in full bloom.
I love frangipani trees, they don't suffer from drought, are very low maintenance, smell great and have beautiful flowers. They don't seem to have any serious pests either.
To propagate you cut off a branch and remove all the leaves. let it dry for a few days and then plant the branch into well drained soil. They thrive in full sun but do alright in a bit of shade too.

And where I live it is still called lahntom (which is the word for sadness not a word with a sad meaning) . People usually stick to tradition with plant names, look at how many people refuse to call geraniums by their correct name (perlargonium).

[chownah]

sbk, thanks for the input.  I just asked my wife (Thai) if lahntom grows around here and she emphatically and without hesitation said "no!"  Her reaction was so abrupt that I asked if it was bad luck to plant it and she said "yes!"  I guess HM the King renaming it didin't persuade everyone!!!!  I ran into the same thing with a tree which we had to cut down in building  our perimeter wall.  They use the leaf in some of the local geng (food) and everyone who saw I was cutting it down (its the only one in the neighborhood and everyone takes the leaves) asked if I was going to plant another one since any branch stuck in the ground will grow.  I offered each of them a cutting and they all said they didn't have room for another tree.  Finally someone again refused my offer so I asked my wife about why everyone is so concerned about the last tree being gone and no one wanting to plant one.  It turns out that if you plant one on the plot where your house is your money will soon be gone.  The one by our house grew there naturally so no one planted it and it grew before we built our house so it didn't effect us.  In discussing this I found out that you could plant it away from your house and that was OK so I planted some in my garden which is in the next lot over from the house.  My wife said that I could buy the lahntom at a nursery and it was OK if I planted some away from the house.    I'm  glad I have a knowledgeable Thai wife to keep me out of harms way!!!
Chownah

[Jai Dee]

sbk, on 2005-05-06 15:33:27, said:

And where I live it is still called lahntom (which is the word for sadness not a word with a sad meaning) .

Thanks or the clarification sbk.

Any idea what the new name "lelawadee" means?

[udon]

Great link JD, esp http://www.plumeria101.com/
Thanks

[bakachan]

i noticed some in phuket were planted in pots instead of in the ground.  maybe a way of getting around the superstition? ive got one in a pot here in the desert of arizona that hopefully will bloom this year.

[udon]

This is the only info I could find about JJ Market but it's a goodun, done by a pair of Florida plant importers

[Ikky Plush]

udon, on 2005-05-07 20:16:26, said:

This is the only info I could find about JJ Market but it's a goodun, done by a pair of Florida plant importers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quite like the giant Alocasias myself.  I've got the standard green one, a white and green varieagation and an acidy yellow and green one.  Also like a few of the bamboos you get in Thailand.

[desi]

I've gone to JJ on wednesdays via the underground, walked around and bought the plants I wanted, then when done had a trolley go around and collect them all to take to a waiting tuk tuk. The talent is knowing when to stop purchasing.

The first time I came back with around 8 7' palms to create a privacy screen on my patio. The trick is to not get them in big pots but light weight plastic or plastic bags, then buy pots separately (it's also cheaper). It's great fun going back stuffed in as tightly as possible with all that greenery, and the tuk tuk drivers take the plants in for you.

Of course this method drags out the plant collecting time but I'm ok with that.

You can easily get the pots in a separate trip. Have a taxi driver or a tuk tuk take you back, or even a kind neighbor with a car if you have one. When I bought my pots with bags of soil the lady offered to deliver them for 500 baht (there were around 15 or so medium and large pots) but a neighbor took them in his car. The trunk and back seat to the ceiling were filled with lovely terracotta pots padded with sacks of soil.

I'm told JJ starts opening late tuesday night around midnight or so. I'm not sure if that is true as I haven't been there personally at that time.

If you are unfamiliar with plants on offer here, there is a wonderful book on Tropical Gardening in english on offer. I bought it in Malaysia I believe, but I've seen it in Singapore airport as well as others. The serious plant sellers will have a fabulous itemized book on the plants sold overseas. If you can get hold of that one it's just a matter of looking up the scientific name online. I borrowed one for a week, then bookmarked the plants I wanted in my browser for later.

I've been an avid gardener for years, and the tropics is the easiest and most gratifying place I've lived as far as gardening goes. In the rainy season you can shove a fresh cut tree limb in the ground with or without a sprinkle of rooting powder, six months later (depending) it's 6-9' tall. Since living in the tropics I've created 4 gardens from bare ground. Several months of hard work, then years of enjoyment and chop chop chopping to keep the rapid growth down. I've given up the process of giving cuttings away as everything just grows too fast so I'd create a compost heap, or chuck them over the fence. Now I'm starting fresh once again, but will most likely stick to pots until I decide where I'm going to end up.

desi

[udon]

Quote

The talent is knowing when to stop purchasing.

    
So true Desi!
Heres a few more Thai links..... hard to find seed and rooting stock.

http://www.heliconia...conia_index.htm
excellent site and prices are available in pdf form if you drop a note to the German owner.
Based in CM.

http://www.plant-group.com/index.htm
nice site, no nursery address or prices but a BKK phone number.

http://siamseeds.com/
excellent site based at Chiang Rai, no prices listed but has a good reputation at the gardenweb.com forum

http://www.thaipalms.com/
nice site but you’d be lucky to get a reply to any emails.

http://www.siamtropicals.com/   (CM)
A poorly designed site and a bit frustrating to use, good pix.

http://www.tseeds.com/
Lots of flower seeds
Tropica Seeds Thailand (TST),
Erawan Farm, Moo 3, Kao Kanoon, Phanom Sarakam, Chacheongsao, Thailand.
Tel/Fax: +66 (38) 551 270

Pls post Thai links here if you find any,
cheers,
udon

[p_brownstone]

Chatuchak is OK for common flowers, plants and fast growing trees – the stuff which local “landscape gardeners” or property companies will fill your garden with to make it appear green and attractive but which old style Thai gardens would not give space to.

If you want genuine Thai trees etc., the types featured in Thai Literature, culture and history (wannakadee Thai) by far the best place to go is the Military housing compound in Bangkhen opposite Wat Sri Mahathat. This is a huge area with old military housing where the wives of NCO’s etc. have used their gardens to propagate and sell the slow growing, harder to find trees and plants.

You have to know what you’re looking for - and in many cases be prepared to wait up to 10 years for the tree to flower - but anyone who has smelt Lamduan, Sarapee or Gan Grao or seen the flowers on Krissana or Bunnag will find it well worthwhile.

Patrick

[udon]

Quote

You have to know what you’re looking for - and in many cases be prepared to wait up to 10 years for the tree to flower - but anyone who has smelt Lamduan, Sarapee or Gan Grao or seen the flowers on Krissana or Bunnag will find it well worthwhile

Hi Patrick,
do you have any English or botanical names for the above?

[p_brownstone]

Hi Udon

Lamduan Melodorum fruticosum
Sarapee Mammea siamensis
Kan Grao Fagraea fragrans
Bunnag Mesua ferrea

Some other very nice ones in my garden here in Bangkok:

Payom Shorea roxburghii
Prayong Aglaia odorata
Puttachart Jasminium auriculatum
Malisorn Jasminium sambac
Kannikar Nyctanthes arbor-tristis
Jankapor Vatica diospyrides Syming
Jampee Michelia alba
Nom Maew Rauwenhoffia siamensis

If you are interested in these type of Thai plants etc., try to get hold of a set of 3 books by Dr. Piya Chalermklin “Mai Dork Horm” (sorry I can’t type Thai on this Computer)

ISBN 974-8366-93-6
ISBN 974-8366-94-4
ISBN 974-7751-60-7

They are all in Thai but by far the best reference I have found.

Patrick

[sbk]

Patrick, some of these trees you recommend are huge! Best to check out the ultimate size of the tree before planting in your garden or you may end up with a big problem later on.

For a pretty good English book (which also has a transliteration of the name in Thai) " Discovering Trees and Shrubs in Thailand and SE Asia" by Adrian & Jimmie Storrs. I also have a coffee table book by William Warren called "Tropical Garden Plants for Thailand" that is pretty good too. And for a third book "500 popular Tropical Plants" rounds out my list. Not all of these are complete but they are in English and will certainly add to your knowledge.

[udon]

Thanks P,
I've copied it.
All I need to do is learn how to pronounce them correctly

[udon]

Here ya go, Thai, English and Latin.....garden

[Ajarn]

udon, on 2005-05-08 12:26:49, said:

Here ya go, Thai, English and Latin.....garden

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great resource! Thanks, udon  

[p_brownstone]

udon, on 2005-05-08 12:26:49, said:

Here ya go, Thai, English and Latin.....garden

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Udon - nice site!

Patrick

[p_brownstone]

sbk, on 2005-05-08 11:34:50, said:

Patrick, some of these trees you recommend are huge! Best to check out the ultimate size of the tree before planting in your garden or you may end up with a big problem later on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I would not say any are "huge", my Sarapee is over 25 years old and although the main trunk is perhaps 20" in diameter with judicious pruning over the years it's not too big in the canopy, the oldest Lamduan, again over 20 years old, only has a trunk around 8" in diameter.

One thing I found here though is it's very difficult to get information on root structure from any seller; for example, it obviously makes a big difference to where one would plant a tree with a long Tap Root rather than one with a wide-spreading, surface root system, but such considerations do not seem to be part of the Thai way of deciding what tree to buy - much less where to plant the thing - so very few sellers will even know the answer to a question on this subject.

Patrick

[udon]

Here's an even better Site.

Thai script., English common name and the scientific names and pix.
Handy to print the page and show to the seller if you can't read or write Thai........ like me

[sbk]

p_brownstone, on 2005-05-08 13:28:02, said:

sbk, on 2005-05-08 11:34:50, said:

Patrick, some of these trees you recommend are huge! Best to check out the ultimate size of the tree before planting in your garden or you may end up with a big problem later on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I would not say any are "huge", my Sarapee is over 25 years old and although the main trunk is perhaps 20" in diameter with judicious pruning over the years it's not too big in the canopy, the oldest Lamduan, again over 20 years old, only has a trunk around 8" in diameter.

One thing I found here though is it's very difficult to get information on root structure from any seller; for example, it obviously makes a big difference to where one would plant a tree with a long Tap Root rather than one with a wide-spreading, surface root system, but such considerations do not seem to be part of the Thai way of deciding what tree to buy - much less where to plant the thing - so very few sellers will even know the answer to a question on this subject.

Patrick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Guess it depends on your definition of huge. Fagrea trees are very common here and many can reach 70 feet. 70 feet is, to me, huge. Especially for a garden around a house. And you point out the judicious pruning. I would say a person would have to be a gardening nut such as yourself (or myself   ) to engage in regular "judicious pruning". It can be alot of work. My sister-in-law planted a causarina tree in front of our house about 10 years ago, it is probably well over 30 feet tall now, even with pruning! (thanks for asking me if I wanted this tree in front of my house my dear sister in law    ) . Anyway, my point being, this tree is as hard as iron and extremely difficult to prune. Takes a dedicated person (or a nagged one like my husband ) to prune that thing.

My personal favorite right now, besides the frangipani, is the "Chong Ko" or Hong Kong Orchid Tree (Bauhinia blakeana--make sure you get the one with the big purple flowers). Not too big (20-40 ft), very beautiful flowers, interesting shaped leaves, does well in full sun, my sandy soil and seems very drought tolerant (important factor this year!).

[chownah]

sbk,  Isn't the bauhinia a legume?  If so then you get beauty and free nitrogen!
Chownah

PS Udon, was it you who talked about permaculture?  If so then this tree is a good one for you!
Chownah

Edited by chownah, 2005-05-09 08:49:36.