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[Jingthing]

rainman, on 2010-02-03 15:12:55, said:

Samuian, on 2010-02-03 13:23:23, said:

yawn!

How can a democracy "reach it's limits"?

Which "limits" are they exactly?

What democracy? Thailand doesn't have a democracy. It has a government installed by a coup, nothing more.

Its not much of democracy. But you are wrong that Abhisit was installed. He wasn't. He formed a government based on a coalition after an election. The coalition parties could have just as easily chosen to side with the Thaksin puppet party and if you remember the time, they almost did.

[AsiaCheese]

poleax, on 2010-02-03 08:01:46, said:

....

So folks...the answer.........A transparent, fair election where the voters decide, and not the vote counters, and where both selling AND buying of votes is criminalized and enforced, and where the loser remains the loser.

Simple actually

"Simple" woldn't be the term I'd use. While democracy by majority vote can work (some limits and exceptions apply), everyone's trying to mix apples with bananas here (with "apples" being democracy & "bananas" being Thailand, no pun intended).

If/when the North/North Eastern masses vote, the outcome is likely to be "red". But what's the basis these people vote on? Populist window-dressing from a few years ago, propagated to the present. They don't know better; they're not educated enough to see what they're buying, and they're easy prey for massive marketing machines.

Much of Thailand simply isn't educated enough to fit into a Western understanding of democracy. Message to the PM (then, now, future): boost education, and do it now...

[jdinasia]

rainman, on 2010-02-03 15:12:55, said:

Samuian, on 2010-02-03 13:23:23, said:

yawn!

How can a democracy "reach it's limits"?

Which "limits" are they exactly?

What democracy? Thailand doesn't have a democracy. It has a government installed by a coup, nothing more.

Hmmm I think you never looked at current events in Thailand in the past 4 years. The coup installed one government. Then there was an election that put the current MP's (Members of Parliament) in place. No party got over 50% of the seats in parliament as a result of those elections. The first 2 coalition governments of this election cycle were Thaksin crony party led. The third (that got elected by the same MP's) is the current government.

So .... unless you are saying that Samak and Somchai were put into office by a coup then obviously Abhisit wasn't either.

[slim]

arthurriding, on 2010-02-03 14:52:56, said:

poleax, on 2010-02-03 07:01:46, said:

I see the campaign to discredit the 'Red Shirt Democracy Movement' continues unabated, with respect to linkage. Those opposed to this movement are trying to tightly link all protest to the Thaksin financial, thing. Thereby calculating that it will make the protests seem self-serving, and diminishing the over-arching pro-democracy nature of them.

This article refers to, "...small rallies....." Last Sundays Khon kean rally filled to overflowing a 47 Rai chunk of land, 'cheek by jowl' as they say. Anytime the English Language Media plays with numbers concerning this movement, they are doing a great disservice to their readership. Ultimately, it is in no-ones interest to misrepresent the strength and significance of this Movement.

Again, to suggest that many are from the North and North East is probably correct. But by stating this repeatedly, it is again a misrepresentation. The 100,000 plus rallies in BKK almost double in size when the evening BKK crowd arrives. Again, it is in no-one's interest to misrepresent that fact. One fact of the composition of this movement that has never been mentioned to my knowledge, is that it is comprised of approx. 80% female. Without wanting to get into Iran/Thailand protest comparisons (if any), as far as its' composition is concerned, this predominence of females is similar. I have never gotten a satifactory answer to why this is so.

This article references the "excrement' thing, implying that it was a Red Shirt initiative. That has not been proven, but is beside the point. The real issue here is that protests if this type and others can be expected when a non-representational and non-electorally based Government is in place.............Protests happen! Dont anybody be surprised by that. And dont be surprised to see them grow.

Referring to the coup that displaced democratically elected Thaksin as "an incident"........................

To also slavishly refuse to describe this political phenomenon as anything other than by the clothing colours is also editorial agenda. Clothing colours is politically nuetral, whereas using the full title of the UDD or to describe them as "The Red Shirt Democracy Movement" is not and would inform readers accurately.

I will spare you my opinions of Seh Daeng...........without in-depth historical perspective I can understand why he would be demonized. But this is a superficial perspective not indicative of reality.

So folks...the answer.........A transparent, fair election where the voters decide, and not the vote counters, and where both selling AND buying of votes is criminalized and enforced, and where the loser remains the loser.

Simple actually

What an amazing comment, that the Red Shirt movement is somehow 'democratic' or even has the slightest connection with 'justice'. I would suggest you take off your 'rose coloured spectacles' and look at the reality which is that the Red Shirt movement is one of the most anti-democratic and thuggish groups in Thailand and is as little concerned about democracy as the thug in whose name it continues to protest.

I am not saying that their opponents are necessarily all that much better but the antics of the red shirts' are very reminiscent of the antics of the 'brown shirts' and 'black shirts' in pre WWII Germany. By all means let us have open and fair elections but that has never happened in Thailand yet, and certainly not under Thaksin's previous regime. In order to have 'free and fair' elections which actually mean something, Thailand needs to move beyond the current 'pork barrel' type of politics to one with a free and transparent flow of information where people can make genuine choices.

Maybe I am being pessimistic but I don't see that happening for at least another generation. Meantime all we have in Thailand is politics where the various 'barons' and factions fight it out between themselves with Thaksin being merely one of the more successful of the robber barons. So let's hear no more nonsense about the 'red shirts' as being somehow democratic or some other such silliness. Let's instead bring some reality to the whole situation. From that point maybe some progress can finally be made for things can only really progress once there is a foundation of truth.

Simple really.  

This post sets the bar to a new level of utter ignorance.

Thaksin won the Jan 2001 General Election by winning 248 of the 500 seats taking 40.6% of the vote. The Democrats won 128 seats with 26.6%
The February 2005 election was won by T.R.T. with the highest voter turnout in Thai history - Thaksin's party winning 375 of the 500 seats with 60.7% of the electorate voting for him.
The election of April 2006 where Thai Ruk Thai was unopposed saw Thaksin win 460 seats winning 61% of the valid votes.

Following the declaration that this election was illegal, intervention by the military, the enforced disbanding of T.R.T. and Thaksins self imposed exile the December 2007 general election with the T.R.T. now standing as the P.P.P. saw the P.P.P. win 233 of the 500 seats with the Democrats behind (again) with 165.

These results speak for themselves. The voice of the people of Thailand is NOT being heard. The current government has NO mandate from the people to govern even though their right to govern is legitimate (with coalitions).

Its time Thailand called for new, open and fair elections to let the people decide once and for all.

Regrettably as the courts, the military and the upper/middle class of Bangkok are desperate for this not to happen Thailand's political problems will continue

[rainman]

Jingthing, on 2010-02-03 15:16:45, said:

rainman, on 2010-02-03 15:12:55, said:

Samuian, on 2010-02-03 13:23:23, said:

yawn!

How can a democracy "reach it's limits"?

Which "limits" are they exactly?

What democracy? Thailand doesn't have a democracy. It has a government installed by a coup, nothing more.

Its not much of democracy. But you are wrong that Abhisit was installed. He wasn't. He formed a government based on a coalition after an election. The coalition parties could have just as easily chosen to side with the Thaksin puppet party and if you remember the time, they almost did.

So Abhisit isn't a puppet? Don't you think he would never have been allowed to become PM if he wasn't a puppet? Thailand isn't governed by the PM. In the last election, Thaksin's party won 199 seats in parliament, while the Democrats won only 132. They're only in the majority because they crawled up the butt of all the smaller parties that had 8% of the vote or less. And let's be honest here, nearly all of these parties were pro-Thaksin before the 'switch'. So people thought they're voting for the small parties, but they're voting for allies of Thaksin. In the end, the people got a 'bait and switch'. So why are new elections not being held? Quite simple. The Democrats know they will lose the next election by a landslide because people won't vote for the small parties anymore, and definitely not for the Democrats.

There was an interesting poll conducted in Bangkok a few weeks ago, that showed that more than 50% of the people in Bangkok would vote for Puea Thai in the next election. And yes, in Bangkok ..not in the north/north-east. I'll try and find it. I believe it was by Chula University.

[Acharn]

poleax, on 2010-02-03 14:01:46, said:

,snip>

This article refers to, "...small rallies....." Last Sundays Khon kean rally filled to overflowing a 47 Rai chunk of land, 'cheek by jowl' as they say. Anytime the English Language Media plays with numbers concerning this movement, they are doing a great disservice to their readership. Ultimately, it is in no-ones interest to misrepresent the strength and significance of this Movement.

Again, to suggest that many are from the North and North East is probably correct. But by stating this repeatedly, it is again a misrepresentation. The 100,000 plus rallies in BKK almost double in size when the evening BKK crowd arrives. Again, it is in no-one's interest to misrepresent that fact.

<snip>

Well, obviously they think it is very much in their interest to try to fool outsiders that the Red Shirt movement is not very important. They fear that if foreign investors knew how strong popular feeling really is they would be frightened to invest here now. It doesn't matter inside Thailand, because not very many Thais read the English language press anyway, and anybody who's curious can find out the truth by talking to any taxi driver or noodle stall lady.

It is good to be aware, though, just how much the English language newspapers lie to make Thaksin look worse, especially The Nation. Sometimes I think they lie just out of habit. I was quite astonished to see them admit above that the PAD are "ultra-royalist." I think a reporter probably slipped something past the editor.

[tonywebster]

Jingthing, on 2010-02-03 14:17:55, said:

h90, on 2010-02-03 14:14:29, said:

To allow foreigner to own land in poor countries is extreme dangerous. As the foreigner can buy half the country or at least the best places, keeping the oringal people without any land. There must be restrictions.

Sure, some restrictions. But Thailand's are over the top. Some foreigners want to buy a small house with land in the provinces to enjoy life here with some ownership security; please tell me how that is a threat to Thailand.

the ideal would be a fixed reasonable size for a house with garden, but stop foreigners buying two plots next to each other to stop them amassing too much land on one plot

[Scott]

Let's try to stay roughly on topic and I realize an opinion piece has wider parameters than some articles.  .  One post was deleted because of playing around with names of people in the article.  Please don't do that.  

The topic isn't about foreign ownership of land.  

Thanks.

[grayfield18]

poleax, on 2010-02-03 07:01:46, said:

I see the campaign to discredit the 'Red Shirt Democracy Movement' continues unabated, with respect to linkage. Those opposed to this movement are trying to tightly link all protest to the Thaksin financial, thing. Thereby calculating that it will make the protests seem self-serving, and diminishing the over-arching pro-democracy nature of them.

This article refers to, "...small rallies....." Last Sundays Khon kean rally filled to overflowing a 47 Rai chunk of land, 'cheek by jowl' as they say. Anytime the English Language Media plays with numbers concerning this movement, they are doing a great disservice to their readership. Ultimately, it is in no-ones interest to misrepresent the strength and significance of this Movement.

Again, to suggest that many are from the North and North East is probably correct. But by stating this repeatedly, it is again a misrepresentation. The 100,000 plus rallies in BKK almost double in size when the evening BKK crowd arrives. Again, it is in no-one's interest to misrepresent that fact. One fact of the composition of this movement that has never been mentioned to my knowledge, is that it is comprised of approx. 80% female. Without wanting to get into Iran/Thailand protest comparisons (if any), as far as its' composition is concerned, this predominence of females is similar. I have never gotten a satifactory answer to why this is so.

This article references the "excrement' thing, implying that it was a Red Shirt initiative. That has not been proven, but is beside the point. The real issue here is that protests if this type and others can be expected when a non-representational and non-electorally based Government is in place.............Protests happen! Dont anybody be surprised by that. And dont be surprised to see them grow.

Referring to the coup that displaced democratically elected Thaksin as "an incident"........................

To also slavishly refuse to describe this political phenomenon as anything other than by the clothing colours is also editorial agenda. Clothing colours is politically nuetral, whereas using the full title of the UDD or to describe them as "The Red Shirt Democracy Movement" is not and would inform readers accurately.

I will spare you my opinions of Seh Daeng...........without in-depth historical perspective I can understand why he would be demonized. But this is a superficial perspective not indicative of reality.

So folks...the answer.........A transparent, fair election where the voters decide, and not the vote counters, and where both selling AND buying of votes is criminalized and enforced, and where the loser remains the loser.

Simple actually

Well said i am sick and tired of the anti Thaksin comments on this site. I don't mind them being anti Thaksin, that is an individual choice. I believe in democracy and regardless of the things Thaksin did or did not do, he was overthrown by a military dictatorship.  They draw up a constitution that tries it's best to be anti his supporters but a pro-Thaksin Government gets elected. Then they destroy it one by one till the others can put together a loose coalition who are not pro-Thaksin.
Thaksin made the huge fortune he has BEFORE he was in any form of power. I have no trust in the court to do what they should do and refuse to confiscate the money.

[animatic]

Insight, on 2010-02-03 14:05:27, said:

poleax, on 2010-02-03 14:01:46, said:

This article refers to, "...small rallies....." Last Sundays Khon kean rally filled to overflowing a 47 Rai chunk of land, 'cheek by jowl' as they say. Anytime the English Language Media plays with numbers concerning this movement, they are doing a great disservice to their readership. Ultimately, it is in no-ones interest to misrepresent the strength and significance of this Movement.

Photos please.

The reports said 4 to 7 rai, not 47 rai.

And unless pictures show tooth by jowl in a huge area it's only hyperbole.

47 rai of red shirts and no aerial photo taken to show this POWER!!.
Someone in the PR department is slipping up me thinks.
or it just didn't happen.

Of course the Red side plan is to scare some of Thaksins money back into his hands
and so inflating the numbers can look scarier.

As to democratic desires, well as long as Thaksin appears to be front and center
in red timing and actions ideology, those democratic ideals arenothing more than
a patina overlaid  and won't get a fair hearing...

Thaksin must retire the field of the Reds want real, and serious influence in Thailand.

[AsiaCheese]

MUYTHAI, on 2010-02-03 08:45:36, said:

Because those "some foreigners" will grow from ten of thousands of foreigners to hundreds of thousands of foreigners and then to millions of foreigners very quickly. If the laws in Thailand changed over night and foreigners were allowed to buy property, businesses, and live there permanently, there would be millions of foreigners living permanently in Thailand with one year. Anyone who has traveled around various Asian countries and non-Asian countries where foreigners were allowed the purchase land, business, etc. can observe and experience first-hand the damage done to the given societies, cultures, natural envirnment, etc. by the influx of foreigners.

Do you not see the damage done to Thai society where there are high concentrations of  foreigners such as in Pattaya, Phuket, areas of BKK, etc. The destruction of traditional Thai culture and the natural environment are plainly evident to anyone who can think and analyse logically and rationally. Simple math> more foreigners = more cultural and environmental damage.

Maybe you prefer Pattaya...most Thais despise it and the foreigners found there.

"the damage done to the given societies, cultures, natural envirnment, etc. by the influx of foreigners" => please substantiate.

"plainly evident [...] more cultural and environmental damage" => So khun Thai aren't using Tesco/Lotus & other malls, don't frequent McDonalds/PizzaHut/you-name-them, don't build ugly condo buildings on the beach, don't drive cars -- what? Can't see what's so "plainly evident"

[chillibilly]

....I think there needs to be a "new" party in Thailand- something beyond the "yellows" and the "reds"  They're both out of wack...just like the Republican and Democratic parties in the States.

[thaibkk]

the story about : making the land prices higher are getting old...

poor farmers cannot buy it anyway


the whole setup of this 'illegal' and unjust fact is that thailand wants old farang with a bundle of cash, live a few years with the misses, maybe make some children that probably could call him granddaddy (50+ year difference and more) and DIE

and live all the cash and assets to the new 'millionair' thai... millionair in the way that she would get 100x more in 1 sec than she and all her family would ever own anyway


rich 2nd-3rd-4th generation immigrants from china posses 99% of everything, that is a fact

and they want to keep it that way

[Jingthing]

chillibilly, on 2010-02-03 15:34:52, said:

....I think there needs to be a "new" party in Thailand- something beyond the "yellows" and the "reds"  They're both out of wack...just like the Republican and Democratic parties in the States.

It sounds like you think Abhisit is in the "yellow" party. He is NOT!

[rainman]

With the February 26th decision on Thaksin's frozen assets, I think Thailand has more at stake than just that. It will also be a verdict on how Thailand deals with investments and funds, not just from Thais but also from foreigners. If Thailand sends a signal that billions belonging to the PM can simply be frozen and taken away without a proper trial ..and as I said before, the verdict was already established well before the case went to court ..it will send a very negative signal to potential foreign investors. If the PM's money can be frozen and taken away by a puppet government established by a military coup, I think they'll rather take their funds elsewhere.

[Acharn]

MUYTHAI, on 2010-02-03 14:45:36, said:

Because those "some foreigners" will grow from ten of thousands of foreigners to hundreds of thousands of foreigners and then to millions of foreigners very quickly. If the laws in Thailand changed over night and foreigners were allowed to buy property, businesses, and live there permanently, there would be millions of foreigners living permanently in Thailand with one year. Anyone who has traveled around various Asian countries and non-Asian countries where foreigners were allowed the purchase land, business, etc. can observe and experience first-hand the damage done to the given societies, cultures, natural envirnment, etc. by the influx of foreigners.

Do you not see the damage done to Thai society where there are high concentrations of  foreigners such as in Pattaya, Phuket, areas of BKK, etc. The destruction of traditional Thai culture and the natural environment are plainly evident to anyone who can think and analyse logically and rationally. Simple math> more foreigners = more cultural and environmental damage.

Maybe you prefer Pattaya...most Thais despise it and the foreigners found there.

LOL! Don't travel much, do you? Ever been to Vietnam? Ever been to Malaysia? Ever been to Singapore? None of them forbid the sale of land to foreigners. Are there millions of foreigners descending on them? I don't think so. The real reason to forbid foreigners to own land is to keep the price of land low for the wealthy Thais who force the farmers off their land. What one entity owns the largest amount of land in Thailand? CP Group. I have to admit I agree with your opinion of Pattaya, though.

[rainman]

Jingthing, on 2010-02-03 15:35:55, said:

chillibilly, on 2010-02-03 15:34:52, said:

....I think there needs to be a "new" party in Thailand- something beyond the "yellows" and the "reds"  They're both out of wack...just like the Republican and Democratic parties in the States.

It sounds like you think Abhisit is in the "yellow" party. He is NOT!

So that wouldn't be then why one of the most vocal yellow-shirt airport protesters ..Kasit ..became foreign minister? And why the yellow-shirt trial over the airport disaster has been stalled for over a year?

Edited by rainman, 2010-02-03 15:39:13.

[Jingthing]

grayfield18, on 2010-02-03 15:31:29, said:

Well said i am sick and tired of the anti Thaksin comments on this site.

Then you must be very sick and tired. He deserves them. Agreed with above, the reds have legit issues, they need to dump Thaksin and start over from a morally credible position. Then they would have great potential.

[mca]

arthurriding, on 2010-02-03 14:52:56, said:

the Red Shirt movement is one of the most anti-democratic and thuggish groups in Thailand

Coming in second place behind the army.

[eggomaniac]

h90, on 2010-02-02 22:27:35, said:

davejonesbkk, on 2010-02-03 13:24:52, said:

why are they churning out these stories everyday??? It seems like they are just rehashing the same stories....

well since 2006 basically the same old story with some minor changes......

since the 1930's, truth be told

[Bilqis]

THere seems to be a general view amongst Thai people hat non-democratic measures are justified in a democracy - that this is a contradiction seems to elude them.

[h90]

slim, on 2010-02-03 15:25:17, said:

arthurriding, on 2010-02-03 14:52:56, said:

poleax, on 2010-02-03 07:01:46, said:

I see the campaign to discredit the 'Red Shirt Democracy Movement' continues unabated, with respect to linkage. Those opposed to this movement are trying to tightly link all protest to the Thaksin financial, thing. Thereby calculating that it will make the protests seem self-serving, and diminishing the over-arching pro-democracy nature of them.

This article refers to, "...small rallies....." Last Sundays Khon kean rally filled to overflowing a 47 Rai chunk of land, 'cheek by jowl' as they say. Anytime the English Language Media plays with numbers concerning this movement, they are doing a great disservice to their readership. Ultimately, it is in no-ones interest to misrepresent the strength and significance of this Movement.

Again, to suggest that many are from the North and North East is probably correct. But by stating this repeatedly, it is again a misrepresentation. The 100,000 plus rallies in BKK almost double in size when the evening BKK crowd arrives. Again, it is in no-one's interest to misrepresent that fact. One fact of the composition of this movement that has never been mentioned to my knowledge, is that it is comprised of approx. 80% female. Without wanting to get into Iran/Thailand protest comparisons (if any), as far as its' composition is concerned, this predominence of females is similar. I have never gotten a satifactory answer to why this is so.

This article references the "excrement' thing, implying that it was a Red Shirt initiative. That has not been proven, but is beside the point. The real issue here is that protests if this type and others can be expected when a non-representational and non-electorally based Government is in place.............Protests happen! Dont anybody be surprised by that. And dont be surprised to see them grow.

Referring to the coup that displaced democratically elected Thaksin as "an incident"........................

To also slavishly refuse to describe this political phenomenon as anything other than by the clothing colours is also editorial agenda. Clothing colours is politically nuetral, whereas using the full title of the UDD or to describe them as "The Red Shirt Democracy Movement" is not and would inform readers accurately.

I will spare you my opinions of Seh Daeng...........without in-depth historical perspective I can understand why he would be demonized. But this is a superficial perspective not indicative of reality.

So folks...the answer.........A transparent, fair election where the voters decide, and not the vote counters, and where both selling AND buying of votes is criminalized and enforced, and where the loser remains the loser.

Simple actually

What an amazing comment, that the Red Shirt movement is somehow 'democratic' or even has the slightest connection with 'justice'. I would suggest you take off your 'rose coloured spectacles' and look at the reality which is that the Red Shirt movement is one of the most anti-democratic and thuggish groups in Thailand and is as little concerned about democracy as the thug in whose name it continues to protest.

I am not saying that their opponents are necessarily all that much better but the antics of the red shirts' are very reminiscent of the antics of the 'brown shirts' and 'black shirts' in pre WWII Germany. By all means let us have open and fair elections but that has never happened in Thailand yet, and certainly not under Thaksin's previous regime. In order to have 'free and fair' elections which actually mean something, Thailand needs to move beyond the current 'pork barrel' type of politics to one with a free and transparent flow of information where people can make genuine choices.

Maybe I am being pessimistic but I don't see that happening for at least another generation. Meantime all we have in Thailand is politics where the various 'barons' and factions fight it out between themselves with Thaksin being merely one of the more successful of the robber barons. So let's hear no more nonsense about the 'red shirts' as being somehow democratic or some other such silliness. Let's instead bring some reality to the whole situation. From that point maybe some progress can finally be made for things can only really progress once there is a foundation of truth.

Simple really.  

This post sets the bar to a new level of utter ignorance.

Thaksin won the Jan 2001 General Election by winning 248 of the 500 seats taking 40.6% of the vote. The Democrats won 128 seats with 26.6%
The February 2005 election was won by T.R.T. with the highest voter turnout in Thai history - Thaksin's party winning 375 of the 500 seats with 60.7% of the electorate voting for him.
The election of April 2006 where Thai Ruk Thai was unopposed saw Thaksin win 460 seats winning 61% of the valid votes.

Following the declaration that this election was illegal, intervention by the military, the enforced disbanding of T.R.T. and Thaksins self imposed exile the December 2007 general election with the T.R.T. now standing as the P.P.P. saw the P.P.P. win 233 of the 500 seats with the Democrats behind (again) with 165.

These results speak for themselves. The voice of the people of Thailand is NOT being heard. The current government has NO mandate from the people to govern even though their right to govern is legitimate (with coalitions).

Its time Thailand called for new, open and fair elections to let the people decide once and for all.

Regrettably as the courts, the military and the upper/middle class of Bangkok are desperate for this not to happen Thailand's political problems will continue

I recommend to read again what happened in the April 2006 election an later on.
Beside getting 61 % of the valid votes if TRT is the one and only party which can be voted for is pretty low.
On this election he broke the constitution in many different ways, the parliament was opened with less than the necessary mps. Thailand was on the way to get a dictatorship. When he rent some violent armed thugs to kill the PAD the military stepped in.
TRT was disbanded for vote buying and fraud by the courts.
PPP did not get the majority and the other parties together with a party that was formerly BOUGHT from TRT and the Democrats formed a government. In the popular vote the Democrats and the PPP had the same amount of votes and all the coalition partner promised before the election that they won't make a coalition with the PPP.
That all is a terrible dirty game but not undemocratic. That the voice of the Thai people isn't heard can't be said when the Democrats got the same amount of popular vote than PPP.

[hammered]

grayfield18, on 2010-02-03 15:31:29, said:

poleax, on 2010-02-03 07:01:46, said:

I see the campaign to discredit the 'Red Shirt Democracy Movement' continues unabated, with respect to linkage. Those opposed to this movement are trying to tightly link all protest to the Thaksin financial, thing. Thereby calculating that it will make the protests seem self-serving, and diminishing the over-arching pro-democracy nature of them.

This article refers to, "...small rallies....." Last Sundays Khon kean rally filled to overflowing a 47 Rai chunk of land, 'cheek by jowl' as they say. Anytime the English Language Media plays with numbers concerning this movement, they are doing a great disservice to their readership. Ultimately, it is in no-ones interest to misrepresent the strength and significance of this Movement.

Again, to suggest that many are from the North and North East is probably correct. But by stating this repeatedly, it is again a misrepresentation. The 100,000 plus rallies in BKK almost double in size when the evening BKK crowd arrives. Again, it is in no-one's interest to misrepresent that fact. One fact of the composition of this movement that has never been mentioned to my knowledge, is that it is comprised of approx. 80% female. Without wanting to get into Iran/Thailand protest comparisons (if any), as far as its' composition is concerned, this predominence of females is similar. I have never gotten a satifactory answer to why this is so.

This article references the "excrement' thing, implying that it was a Red Shirt initiative. That has not been proven, but is beside the point. The real issue here is that protests if this type and others can be expected when a non-representational and non-electorally based Government is in place.............Protests happen! Dont anybody be surprised by that. And dont be surprised to see them grow.

Referring to the coup that displaced democratically elected Thaksin as "an incident"........................

To also slavishly refuse to describe this political phenomenon as anything other than by the clothing colours is also editorial agenda. Clothing colours is politically nuetral, whereas using the full title of the UDD or to describe them as "The Red Shirt Democracy Movement" is not and would inform readers accurately.

I will spare you my opinions of Seh Daeng...........without in-depth historical perspective I can understand why he would be demonized. But this is a superficial perspective not indicative of reality.

So folks...the answer.........A transparent, fair election where the voters decide, and not the vote counters, and where both selling AND buying of votes is criminalized and enforced, and where the loser remains the loser.

Simple actually

Well said i am sick and tired of the anti Thaksin comments on this site. I don't mind them being anti Thaksin, that is an individual choice. I believe in democracy and regardless of the things Thaksin did or did not do, he was overthrown by a military dictatorship.  They draw up a constitution that tries it's best to be anti his supporters but a pro-Thaksin Government gets elected. Then they destroy it one by one till the others can put together a loose coalition who are not pro-Thaksin.
Thaksin made the huge fortune he has BEFORE he was in any form of power. I have no trust in the court to do what they should do and refuse to confiscate the money.

For a pieceof research on how the businesses of Thaksin and his associates performed while he was PM see this piece of research:

http://hermes-ir.lib.../WP2008-17a.pdf

It is quite interesting an dispels certain myths made. It is also not a piece of research made or funded by any of the current players. I will let you draw your own conclusions but most who have read it think it looks bleak fo rMr. Thaksin. It is also a very interesting piece of research for other reasons as it exposes the connection of familial business interests and politics imho.

[jdinasia]

rainman, on 2010-02-03 15:38:29, said:

Jingthing, on 2010-02-03 15:35:55, said:

chillibilly, on 2010-02-03 15:34:52, said:

....I think there needs to be a "new" party in Thailand- something beyond the "yellows" and the "reds"  They're both out of wack...just like the Republican and Democratic parties in the States.

It sounds like you think Abhisit is in the "yellow" party. He is NOT!

So that wouldn't be then why one of the most vocal yellow-shirt airport protesters ..Kasit ..became foreign minister? And why the yellow-shirt trial over the airport disaster has been stalled for over a year?

Ummm Kasit is a Democrat ... Kasit was also a member of the PAD. By your logic this means that  all Democrats are PAD and you know that isn't true.

It would be like saying. Thaksin is a Red shirt. Thaksin is a fugitive from justice. All red shirts are thus fugitives from justice! (also not true)

Re trials ... there are MANY trials that have been stalled far far longer.

[charmonman]

poleax, on 2010-02-03 14:01:46, said:

I see the campaign to discredit the 'Red Shirt Democracy Movement' continues unabated, with respect to linkage. Those opposed to this movement are trying to tightly link all protest to the Thaksin financial, thing. Thereby calculating that it will make the protests seem self-serving, and diminishing the over-arching pro-democracy nature of them.

Over-arching pro-democracy nature? As long as they're in favour of a return of Thaksin to power, then there is nothing pro-democracy about them. If you believe otherwise, you were not paying attention to Thaksin's words or deeds while he was in power.

This article references the "excrement' thing, implying that it was a Red Shirt initiative. That has not been proven, but is beside the point. The real issue here is that protests if this type and others can be expected when a non-representational and non-electorally based Government is in place.............Protests happen! Dont anybody be surprised by that. And dont be surprised to see them grow.

The current governmnent came to power after the collapse of the previous Pheua Thai led government according to the rules of a parliamentary democracy. There is not a single MP in the governing coalition that was not elected. They have more seats than the opposition, which means they get to be the government. Explain what is non-representational and non-electorally-based about that please.

So folks...the answer.........A transparent, fair election where the voters decide, and not the vote counters, and where both selling AND buying of votes is criminalized and enforced, and where the loser remains the loser.

Simple actually

Agreed, with the additional provision that the government be subject to laws enforced by an independent judiciary, not entitled to behave in anyway they choose after they have been elected. Otherwise, it is not really a democracy as we all saw during the Thaksin-era that the bulk of the "Red-Shirt Democracy Movement" seem so keen on bringing back.