157 replies to this topic
Posted 2010-02-08 16:19:57
 Wiley, on 2010-02-08 16:11:35, said:
It doesn't take much of a search to find self described red shirts in BKK, and I am not just talking about taxi drivers. I am speaking of very well educated/ padded people.
When I make the statement "Red shirts support Taksin," They reply, "Not necessarily, we support democracy, we want an election."
In fact, I am a little more hard pressed to find a self described yellow shirt.
Just my observation.
"The revolution will not be televised" - Gil Scott-Heron
Come to Asok - there's two in my office today.
/edit - Where are these red shirts you speak of?
Edited by Insight, 2010-02-08 16:23:57.
Posted 2010-02-08 16:21:14
"The government should distribute the Thaksin Asset to the poor people of the North East so it will keep peace and make everyone happy"
Great! While we are at it lets have a look at the assets of all of our favorite bigwigs in the upper-echelons, including the ones that are tax-exempt. I'm sure there will be enough money going around to fatten up every Thai for decades! Socialism for everyone!
Edited by johncitizen, 2010-02-08 16:22:50.
Posted 2010-02-08 16:21:18
gr8fldanielle, on 2010-02-08 09:24:45, said: this is the land of no consequence. Taksin's antics would never be tolerated in any developed civilization, much less allowing the stupid to be stupid and to follow his beckon and call which is nothing but self serving at it's best. Why can't these people be somewhat educated on the matter, and let Taksin's true colors be revealed? They blame a movie for promoting smoking cigarettes here, and they also blame Taksin for the stupid things people are willing to do that follow him. Why don't they educate the masses, don't smoke and don't fall for smoke and mirrors. I think they know somewhere deep down that education doesn't work here, and they don't expect it to either. 
So you think the masses need to be re-educated, I have a feeling I have heard that recommended course of action sometime before- now where was that?
Posted 2010-02-08 16:33:29
ogb, on 2010-02-08 13:34:19, said: Fits in very well with the Chirmsak/Prem plan, and as usual there is no shortage of farang 'useful idiots' to help their cause.
I hadn't even heard, there was a shortage of locally-sourced 'useful idiots', now they're having to import farang ones too ? 
johncitizen, on 2010-02-08 16:06:29, said: There are two interesting things that stand out in this article for me. Firstly, the NPP/PAD's sec-gen's prediction that there will be a coup soon.
This may be an historic occasion, the first time when the PAD and the UDD agree on something, whatever is the world coming to !
Posted 2010-02-08 16:41:53
cosmont, on 2010-02-08 13:50:14, said: The government should distribute the Thaksin Asset to the poor people of the North East so it will keep peace and make everyone happy
A worthy point but best to spend these ill gotten gains through out the country! That would be doing what Ts had been doing but I agree it would put a lot more back than he ever gave..
Posted 2010-02-08 16:45:06
cosmont, on 2010-02-08 13:50:14, said: The government should distribute the Thaksin Asset to the poor people of the North East so it will keep peace and make everyone happy
Why do you think that's where Taksin's backbone of support is? Might have something to do with his government trying to drag them out of poverty. Basic free healthcare and education. He's got his faults but he's not all bad. Show me a business man or polititian who isn't corrupt in some way and I'll eat my flip flops!
Posted 2010-02-08 16:45:13
Insight, on 2010-02-08 16:19:57, said: Wiley, on 2010-02-08 16:11:35, said: It doesn't take much of a search to find self described red shirts in BKK, and I am not just talking about taxi drivers. I am speaking of very well educated/ padded people.
When I make the statement "Red shirts support Taksin," They reply, "Not necessarily, we support democracy, we want an election."
In fact, I am a little more hard pressed to find a self described yellow shirt.
Just my observation.
"The revolution will not be televised" - Gil Scott-Heron
Come to Asok - there's two in my office today.
/edit - Where are these red shirts you speak of?
It maybe harder to find self described Yellow shirts,
but easy enough to find anti-Red Shirts all about.
38 security centers, sort of like storm warning buoys.
Earl;y warning a communications annexes.
Likely a good idea, except also likely to be 38 new targets too.
Edited by animatic, 2010-02-08 16:47:58.
Posted 2010-02-08 16:46:47
aussiemarkinthailand, on 2010-02-08 13:42:36, said: More importantly when will an Election be held? Thailand is being governed by aparty with no mandate by the people. Tis is clearly a more important issue.
Welcome ---
and please refer to the raw numbers of votes in the 2007 elections 
Election_2007.jpg 113.83K
29 downloads
That should help you to understand a little more.
Poleax seems to be forgetting a Red General that appointed himself their leader and has threatened judges, and in the past threatened grenade attacks that then occured. He also seems to be forgetting the cinderblock through the PM's car window and the People's Army  No surprise there!
Posted 2010-02-08 16:53:45
animatic, on 2010-02-08 16:45:13, said: Insight, on 2010-02-08 16:19:57, said: Wiley, on 2010-02-08 16:11:35, said: It doesn't take much of a search to find self described red shirts in BKK, and I am not just talking about taxi drivers. I am speaking of very well educated/ padded people.
When I make the statement "Red shirts support Taksin," They reply, "Not necessarily, we support democracy, we want an election."
In fact, I am a little more hard pressed to find a self described yellow shirt.
Just my observation.
"The revolution will not be televised" - Gil Scott-Heron
Come to Asok - there's two in my office today.
/edit - Where are these red shirts you speak of?
It maybe harder to find self described Yellow shirts,
but easy enough to find anti-Red Shirts all about.
Red shirts haven't stagged a coup and as far as I can remember the last one was staged by the yellow shirts which ousted an elected government who had the majority. I don't agree with any group holding a government to ransom so sort your democracy out Thailand!
Posted 2010-02-08 16:57:27
junglist, on 2010-02-08 13:57:08, said: cosmont, on 2010-02-08 13:50:14, said: The government should distribute the Thaksin Asset to the poor people of the North East so it will keep peace and make everyone happy
This is not a bad idea. Ask Mr. T if he loves his people so much to give all the funds held by the courts to be used to help the rural people. Make schools and hospitals use the money truly to help the people who he took it from. If Mr. T said yes to this I would forgive him on all accounts. Now I would never forget what he has done and the lives lost. But we could all move on and save what is left of our nation.
Ah, there it is! Three times in this forum I have been asking WHAT has he done. NOBODY remembers or answered. Now, seriously, tell me what did he do? I mean under 'good' and 'bad' sections. Truly, I do not know .
Come on, junglist, tell me, please.
Posted 2010-02-08 16:57:35
Prem will win the battle against the reds,because they are poor organised and everybody is fat up with demonstrations.
But he will soon lose the battle against age,because to much stress and corruption for an old man.
Posted 2010-02-08 16:57:57
Jirapa, on 2010-02-08 16:53:45, said: Red shirts haven't stagged a coup and as far as I can remember the last one was staged by the yellow shirts which ousted an elected government who had the majority. I don't agree with any group holding a government to ransom so sort your democracy out Thailand!
Ummmmm sorry but the "yellows" didn't stage a coup either. There was no elected government at the time (Thaksin had dissolved parliament and failed to get the next elections certified.) The military staged a bloodless coup AFTER the failed elections.
Posted 2010-02-08 17:03:14
jdinasia, on 2010-02-08 16:46:47, said: aussiemarkinthailand, on 2010-02-08 13:42:36, said: More importantly when will an Election be held? Thailand is being governed by aparty with no mandate by the people. Tis is clearly a more important issue.
Welcome ---
and please refer to the raw numbers of votes in the 2007 elections
Election_2007.jpg 113.83K
29 downloads
That should help you to understand a little more.
Poleax seems to be forgetting a Red General that appointed himself their leader and has threatened judges, and in the past threatened grenade attacks that then occured. He also seems to be forgetting the cinderblock through the PM's car window and the People's Army No surprise there!
I seem to remember Taksin's party was disbanded as it wasn't allowed to stand in elections so that chart means nothing. They had a very short time to promote and create a new party and leadership which can't be seen to make for a fair election. I'm by no means pro Taksin, that's a Thai issue but in a just election you should all be playing in the same ball park which wasn't the case on many levels.
Edited by Jirapa, 2010-02-08 17:04:15.
Posted 2010-02-08 17:04:24
The intersting thing is that the red leadership think they will prevail, the government think they will prevail and the military, whihc is abit different from government, think they will prevail. Not everyone can be right.
By the way for those who remember the yellows werent too happy with the coup installed government or any that have followed it up to and including now, so I wouldnt assume it was a yellow coup. The yellows are just one faction in a multi-faceted struggle and it is only simplistic puerile propaganda that suggests it is a two sided struggle between red and yellow. hel_l even within red there are everything form almost neo-nazis to ex commies and similalr in yellow.
Posted 2010-02-08 17:04:40
Actually the yellow shirts only took over the airport,
it may or may not have slightly hastened the foregone conclusion
of PPP being dissolved for electoral fraud at the leadership level.
You can try and say it was a yellow coup, but it was an Anti-Thaksin coup,
followed by his second party getting caught cheating enough to be dissolved.
It's a hoary axiom, but ' Cheaters never prosper'.
And PTP is not likely to unless they ditch the dead weight they are shackled to.
Edited by animatic, 2010-02-08 17:12:50.
Posted 2010-02-08 17:06:13
jayjayjayjay, on 2010-02-08 01:38:04, said: johncitizen, on 2010-02-08 15:19:51, said: ~snip~
EDIT: And in question to the last post- well, which one was it? Election or judiciary?
Who is in power, who controls the courts, no matter what election result we have over the next ten years, we can see the voice of the people not being heard. If someone is critical of the system of election, all I can say is get of your high horses and live up country for more than your Bkk paypackets allow for a 4 day holiday. You'll learn a lot, and learn why Mr. T was and is so popular. The fact I have well over a thousand staff all on minimum wage, and take the time to visit their families and kin in their villages gives a pretty strong impression of what they think about political horse sh*t that comes out of Bkk. If they end up rising up in protest against PAD, Dems, or Prem, all I can say is keep your head down, coz they are one very cohesive group (50 million strong)and really pissed off with central rule right now.
Just reporting the facts.
And you have those facts absolutely correct Jay/jay, and well put!
But those who represent those facts are considered intellectually challenged.......the height of arrogance in my opinion.
These people know the before and after - the before Thaksin and the after. And they vote accordingly.
This voting fact amazes me, considering that the Opposition elite/aristocracy for whom Mr. Thaksin is such a threat, controls the airwaves and domestic media. It has been bombarding these people for over three years now with anti-Thaksin stuff, anti-UDD stuff and anti anything even remotely associated with them. Yet they are still afraid of an election.
Obviously these voters are not as intellectually challenged as they portray. Three years of this stuff, and it still hasn't made a dent in electoral realities.
I admire the Thai electorate immensely.
But I worry about them. The powers so strongly vested in these elites brings into question the ability for voters to decide things, and not the voter counters.
And dont bother with that old chestnut, the vote-buying thing. Vote buying cuts accross all political entities. No-one is pure. I just wish that someone would get some backbone and stop it. Those receiving the money are as criminal as those offering it. And it CAN be stopped.
Posted 2010-02-08 17:11:17
Jirapa, on 2010-02-08 17:03:14, said: jdinasia, on 2010-02-08 16:46:47, said: aussiemarkinthailand, on 2010-02-08 13:42:36, said: More importantly when will an Election be held? Thailand is being governed by aparty with no mandate by the people. Tis is clearly a more important issue.
Welcome ---
and please refer to the raw numbers of votes in the 2007 elections
Election_2007.jpg 113.83K
29 downloads
That should help you to understand a little more.
Poleax seems to be forgetting a Red General that appointed himself their leader and has threatened judges, and in the past threatened grenade attacks that then occured. He also seems to be forgetting the cinderblock through the PM's car window and the People's Army No surprise there!
I seem to remember Taksin's party was disbanded as it wasn't allowed to stand in elections so that chart means nothing. They had a very short time to promote and create a new party and leadership which can't be seen to make for a fair election. I'm by no means pro Taksin, that's a Thai issue but in a just election you should all be playing in the same ball park which wasn't the case on many levels.
All they needed was to vote in new party leadership 90 days before the election.
Since all were existing party members it was just a new leadership vote.
Thaksins rank and file members still were in Parliament EXCEPT when he dissolved parliament.
And the regrouped TRT as PPP had as much time as other parties to ready for the election.
In fact in both cases of TRT to PPP and PPP to PTP they had PRE-CREATED new parties,
knowing they had been caught out.
The seemingly didn't have enough time to properly hide their cheating though.
Is that what you meant by not enough time to prepare?
Posted 2010-02-08 17:15:09
Wiley, on 2010-02-08 02:11:35, said: It doesn't take much of a search to find self described red shirts in BKK, and I am not just talking about taxi drivers. I am speaking of very well educated/ padded people.
When I make the statement "Red shirts support Taksin," They reply, "Not necessarily, we support democracy, we want an election."
In fact, I am a little more hard pressed to find a self described yellow shirt.
Just my observation.
"The revolution will not be televised" - Gil Scott-Heron
Agreed Wiley.
The reason you cannot find a 'yellow shirt', is because they consciously try to operate under the radar, plus they are a significant minority compared to the Red Shirt Democracy Movement.
Anytime someone prefaces his/her comments with " I support neither red or yellow" is in all likelyhood a PAD/yellow supporter. They try to suggest their non-alliance gives them more credibility. After they make that "statement of nuetrality", you often find they proceed to propose similar ideas as the PAD/Yellows.
They really soft-pedal one of their primary concepts - that being they are more knowledgable and educated than others, making them better suitable to be an electorate, and not others. Someone on this board suggested it was a Chinese concept which I hadn't thought of. Although I have heard that the 'yellows/PAD are predominently of Chinese origin. But I dont know enough about them to make such a conclusion.
Such divisiveness and arrogance doesn't fly, so they stay below the surface with it.
Edited by poleax, 2010-02-08 17:30:34.
Posted 2010-02-08 17:16:18
If you have 1,000 on staff at MINIMUM WAGE,
then then you sound like part of the problem elite and not the solution.
Or are you worried about being competetive, and so don't raise pay
but substitute nam jai for a living wage?
Posted 2010-02-08 17:18:40
And dont bother with that old chestnut, the vote-buying thing. Vote buying cuts accross all political entities. No-one is pure. I just wish that someone would get some backbone and stop it. Those receiving the money are as criminal as those offering it. And it CAN be stopped.
[/quote]
Don't agree with that at all! If you know who you're going to vote for and you get offered a bribe take the money. You still put your cross where you want without anyone knowing and create apathy amongst the party you oppose who are convinced they have yours and many other paid for votes. If they want to spend their election campaign funds on bribes then good as when it kicks them in the face after they paid for the boots!
Posted 2010-02-08 17:20:41
AsiaCheese, on 2010-02-08 14:21:43, said: poleax, on 2010-02-08 07:24:55, said: Well, that is one way to bring about 'national Reconciliation"
Set up so-called control centers against the electoral majority.
This Abhisit/Suthep trumpetting of violence potential is not about "violence". It is all about demonizing the Democracy Movement of which they are not a part. Implying possible violence suggests their might be violence, right......Political point made and demonization achieved for those unfamiliar or not politically astute enough to see through this facade. Especially when their English language Media will fall right in line and affirm their political comfort level
I can just hear all the diatribes my defense of the "Red Shirt Democracy Movement" will incite. But isn't that what makes a political discussion board interesting. Everyone trumpetting for one side of this political divide, with the only variation being their individual creativity in doing so is boring.....Right?
All this stuff about violence that Abhisit/Suthep propagate, is so incongruous with reality. It is pure politics.
Reality is the nature of these people who apparently need "control Centres". When Farang's attend the events of this Democracy Movement. one is struck by the adulation they receive. It is a real ego boost for Farangs. There is slapping on the back, vigorous hand-shakes, smiles a mile wide, etc. I am not sure why this is so. I can only speculate that these people appreciate the affirmation of their cause by farangs who come from traditional Democracies. Another factoid I dont understand, is that 80% of this movement is made up of women.
Then I read all this political posturing about violence from the Abhisit/Suthep side of the political divide, and it all seems so fabricated, so purely political. I can just imagine scenes of all these women rising up in a paroxysms of Violence .
Also, focussing on the Norh and NE....what a way to build political support where there is none. What about those huge Bangkok numbers that swell Red Shirt Democracy Movement rallies of 100,000 and more...in fact doubling them.
Isn't there a better way?
Allright guys, lets hear it about Songkran...the only hook you can hang your hat on, albeit a hook that was defined for you by the domestic media. That paragon of balanced political reportage.
So, does that stir the pot a little?
(47 rai)
Another poster said "... beginning of civil war?" -- personally, I think it's more like "forestall/prevent civil war".
The BKK Songkran clashes are a fact, as well as most of its participants having been shuttled there from the North-East, with a daily income for acting "red". Not too many BKKians in that crowd...
"Against the electoral majority" -- you mean: against the people who sold votes plus were enticed with the help of a massive populist marketing machine of a guy with more money, greed & brains than "the other side"?
The core problem is that lots of (unfortunately) badly educated people in the North-East, with a cleverly impressed "view of the situation", want to re-instate a fugitive criminal. Re criminal: that's not yellow lore; that's what the courts say. All that they get to see is that the "pujay ban" received x amount of Baht from Mr. Taksin (actually: not from his good-heart stash of cash, but from taxpayer's money...), which might and might not have trickled down to them. So Mr. T. must be the good guy, and all others are just rich swindlers trying to get their mittens on Mr. T.'s cash -- right?
When farangs attend red rallies, I'm sure that there's a lot of back slapping. After all, it's viewed as a gesture of sympathy for their cause. And farangs do have a high standing with the country folks, sometimes undeservedly so...
Putting myself in a rice farmer's shoes (and putting on the red goggles), the reds are doing the right thing, and they want a functioning democracy with an elected government. Taking off the red goggles, the term "elected" turns sour in view of the marketing machine that is being let loose on them -- it's a bit like voting for Philip Morris, because they make "Light" cigarettes that won't kill you... It is my personal view that this country isn't quite there yet fo face vote by electoral majority, before better education hasn't set in!
Anyone?
YOU SAID IT VERY WELL...... anyone with half a brain will have to agree... but some people like to be slapped on the back... 500baht anyone..?
Posted 2010-02-08 17:20:46
poleax, Wiley -
If there's so many so-called "red shirts" in Bangkok right now it shouldn't be too difficult for you to provide us with pictures - I'm pretty sure they'll all enjoy the PR opportunity.
I look forward to seeing them soon.
Posted 2010-02-08 17:22:17
poleax, on 2010-02-08 17:15:09, said: ... Anytime someone prefaces his/her comments with "I support neither red or yellow" is in all likelyhood a PAD/yellow supporter. They try to suggest their non-alliance gives them more credibility....
Classic us against them polarization:
If the don't agree with you and say they don't agree with your enemy,
then the MUST be in the enemy's camp, but too weak to admit it.
Thought like that is why the Red side is doomed to fail.
Nothing is as black and white as that. The world is gray
and absolutism doesn't win the war, only a few battles.
Oh, 'the Reds aren't really for Thaksin, they are for democracy',
but only start acting up when Thaksin needs them too...
Coincidental... not on your tin type.
Posted 2010-02-08 17:23:00
Interesting watching the propaganda being produced on here. Now apparently Thai people or others for that matter cant be neither yellow nor red. Maybe they arent allowed to think for themselves anymore.
Interesting how certain phrases are also used conspicuously too for PR/propagnda reasons. Not as sophisitcated as has been used elsewhere but interestibng to watch.
Wopnder if the thread will make it back to some vestiuge of reality and away from condescending and supercilious comments suggesting people cannot think for themselves.
Posted 2010-02-08 17:31:15
animatic, on 2010-02-08 17:16:18, said: If you have 1,000 on staff at MINIMUM WAGE,
then then you sound like part of the problem elite and not the solution.
Or are you worried about being competetive, and so don't raise pay
but substitute nam jai for a living wage?
Don't be so synical! He or she might be paying a minimum wage of 500B a day cos he/she's got a big heart? Somehow I doubt it. 10 people in senior management earning a fair wage, 20-30 head of staff in middle management making a living and the majority of the rest working for pennies. The bottom of the bag are working with no protective gear, no health or accident insurance and no regulation and getting 150B-200B a day.
Totally agree!
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