244 replies to this topic
Posted 2010-03-22 17:03:51
 Mitker, on 2010-03-22 08:53:38, said:
Bring me any red shirt able to prove he/she knows Exim is not an exotic dish and Temasek a DIY brand and I will start to listen to him/her.
Until then, I just see them as manipulated folks serving the cause of a greedy, dictator-to-be billionaire on the run. They simply do not understand the game they are used for.
My factory staff is tuned all day long on a red shirts radio. Speechs would make you feel like you were listening to a Rwandese radio days before it went ugly.
Wow . . . someone has a high opinion (not) of his Thai staff . . . 
Posted 2010-03-22 17:10:04
I don't like the man or some of his financial activities in the past, though I'd guess a fair number of other politicians (regardless of their political pursuasion) have used their positions to line their pockets whilst in office ...
I'd guess the main underlying issue the Red-shirts are campaigning for, is a reduction in the difference in incomes between the farmer's incomes and those in the cities. Thakasin, as far as they are concerned, began to address their grievences, so logic tells me, if the present government also addressed these issues, Thakasin's influence would be largely defused. I suppose this happening depends on the present political party having the courage to put aside some of their 'Holy Cows' and address what has probably been a decades-long issue.
However, I am a Falang and have little knowlege of the historical background of Thailand.
Posted 2010-03-22 18:02:45
anotherpeter, on 2010-03-22 09:00:56, said: But, no. They even got people abusing them in some areas.
I think next week there will be even more abusing them.
Once the announcement was made they plan to march again next Saturday a hastily made flyer to plan a meeting in my village arrived on all the gates. It seems if they plan to venture into our little slice of Bangkapi again next Saturday they will NOT be met with waves and they will not be able to pass without a lot of extra effort. Some in the meeting are suggesting we look into hiring Private Security to bar them from entering the area at all. I doubt they (the Reds) could possibly be stupid enough to tempt fate again by taking the same route, but if they do there will be a very different greeting from areas like ours that have already been through this nonsense once... time to pack up the smelly fish and sticky rice and go home.
#54
tilac2
Posted 2010-03-22 18:05:59
connel707, on 2010-03-22 10:55:27, said: geovalin, on 2010-03-22 09:07:41, said: Mitker, on 2010-03-22 02:53:38, said: Bring me any red shirt able to prove he/she knows Exim is not an exotic dish and Temasek a DIY brand and I will start to listen to him/her.
Until then, I just see them as manipulated folks serving the cause of a greedy, dictator-to-be billionaire on the run. They simply do not understand the game they are used for.
My factory staff is tuned all day long on a red shirts radio. Speechs would make you feel like you were listening to a Rwandese radio days before it went ugly.
Not good to insult the people.
By the way, when we, French, made the revolution in 1789, I'm pretty sure that some wise men like you told "the populace will never be able to manage the country". But we did! With difficulties yes but France is now a proud country with a stable government.
Same in USA when they expelled the British.
What are you Croaking about..??????
He's 'croaking' some good points. But I hope and believe that Thais -- being the tolerant and amenable people that they are -- will find a way to sort this out without revolution. The social conditions behind all this are well summarised in the Bangkok Post today:
http://www.bangkokpo...closing-the-gap
This states that Thailand is one of the most unequal countries in Asia, with the top 20% owning 69% of the wealth, while the bottom 20% have only 1%. Then look at the figures for annual income per capita broken down by region: the northeast is way below the other regions, though of course there are poor people in all parts of the country. The reds have an excellent case; the only argument I'd have with them is over their choice of leader, but Thaksin is the only leader who ever did anything for these ignored people. It might be nice if some of you (relatively) rich farangs stop insulting the reds and their supporters, calling them country bumpkins or whatever. These people have a good case and know what they're doing. They just want a chance to vote and then have the result respected. The same chance that many of us have in our countries.
Posted 2010-03-22 18:11:13
shawndoc, on 2010-03-22 10:44:37, said: Once again, congrats to the Red Shirts for keeping things peaceful. And while the blood thing was nasty and wrong, it was at least a non-violent act that succeeded in getting them some international press (although perhaps not the type they wanted).
However they don't seem to have sort of end game. Its clear they aren't going to get what they originally wanted, or what they pretended to want. What do they hope to achieve?
democracy instead of military dictatorship
Simple as that
Posted 2010-03-22 18:15:28
traderjm, on 2010-03-22 19:02:45, said: anotherpeter, on 2010-03-22 09:00:56, said: But, no. They even got people abusing them in some areas.
I think next week there will be even more abusing them.
Once the announcement was made they plan to march again next Saturday a hastily made flyer to plan a meeting in my village arrived on all the gates. It seems if they plan to venture into our little slice of Bangkapi again next Saturday they will NOT be met with waves and they will not be able to pass without a lot of extra effort. Some in the meeting are suggesting we look into hiring Private Security to bar them from entering the area at all. I doubt they (the Reds) could possibly be stupid enough to tempt fate again by taking the same route, but if they do there will be a very different greeting from areas like ours that have already been through this nonsense once... time to pack up the smelly fish and sticky rice and go home.
Sounds like you want to provoke violence to a peaceful protest.... 
Posted 2010-03-22 18:19:46
morphem, on 2010-03-22 18:11:13, said: shawndoc, on 2010-03-22 10:44:37, said: Once again, congrats to the Red Shirts for keeping things peaceful. And while the blood thing was nasty and wrong, it was at least a non-violent act that succeeded in getting them some international press (although perhaps not the type they wanted).
However they don't seem to have sort of end game. Its clear they aren't going to get what they originally wanted, or what they pretended to want. What do they hope to achieve?
democracy instead of military dictatorship
Simple as that
It's not a military dictatorship now. There were elections.
It's more of a democracy now than it was under Thaksin.
Yes, not every one will be happy until there are elections. But to have free and fair elections, which is what the reds want, they need to make sure everyone can campaign freely and everyone can vote without someone looking over their shoulder.
Posted 2010-03-22 18:24:23
britmaveric, on 2010-03-22 18:15:28, said: traderjm, on 2010-03-22 19:02:45, said:
Once the announcement was made they plan to march again next Saturday a hastily made flyer to plan a meeting in my village arrived on all the gates. It seems if they plan to venture into our little slice of Bangkapi again next Saturday they will NOT be met with waves and they will not be able to pass without a lot of extra effort. Some in the meeting are suggesting we look into hiring Private Security to bar them from entering the area at all. I doubt they (the Reds) could possibly be stupid enough to tempt fate again by taking the same route, but if they do there will be a very different greeting from areas like ours that have already been through this nonsense once... time to pack up the smelly fish and sticky rice and go home.
Sounds like you want to provoke violence to a peaceful protest....
So one group is allowed to protest, but another isn't? Can't they protest that they are sick of their lives being disrupted?
Posted 2010-03-22 18:26:47
geovalin, on 2010-03-22 09:07:41, said: By the way, when we, French, made the revolution in 1789, I'm pretty sure that some wise men like you told "the populace will never be able to manage the country". But we did! With difficulties yes but France is now a proud country with a stable government.
Same in USA when they expelled the British.
Different continents but many similarities indeed
True Democracy doesn't come easy
But the reds in BKK won't back down now, they seem to be just the tip of the iceberg.
Posted 2010-03-22 18:32:01
Mitker, on 2010-03-22 08:41:24, said: Reds rallies peaked somewhere at 100.000. Wow, impressive crowd...
But in a country of 60+ million, it means 1 out of 600 habitants was in the street that day.
If any advocates it's enough to oust a government, then he must be ready to see 15 different governments per week.
Thailand has indeed a human potential for about 2 similar protests per day (60M/100K/365days) if you spread them all over the year.
I know I round a little, that toddlers are hardly expected to rally and that for each demonstrator there may be several sympathisers but the rationale remains.
ps: actually, the real question is: except Who-We-Know, who's ready to buy so many protesters for the next one?
100,0000+ gathering is pretty impressive considering the circumstance these people had to travel many hundreds of kilometers considering their socioeconomic bakground. You name me a protest in USA that gathered more than 1:600 ratio in recent times.
Posted 2010-03-22 18:34:51
anotherpeter, on 2010-03-22 18:24:23, said: britmaveric, on 2010-03-22 18:15:28, said: traderjm, on 2010-03-22 19:02:45, said:
Once the announcement was made they plan to march again next Saturday a hastily made flyer to plan a meeting in my village arrived on all the gates. It seems if they plan to venture into our little slice of Bangkapi again next Saturday they will NOT be met with waves and they will not be able to pass without a lot of extra effort. Some in the meeting are suggesting we look into hiring Private Security to bar them from entering the area at all. I doubt they (the Reds) could possibly be stupid enough to tempt fate again by taking the same route, but if they do there will be a very different greeting from areas like ours that have already been through this nonsense once... time to pack up the smelly fish and sticky rice and go home.
Sounds like you want to provoke violence to a peaceful protest....
So one group is allowed to protest, but another isn't? Can't they protest that they are sick of their lives being disrupted?
That's pretty much BM's position on this, yes... If you are not a red then you are the enemy 
Posted 2010-03-22 18:36:28
He's 'croaking' some good points. But I hope and believe that Thais -- being the tolerant and amenable people that they are -- will find a way to sort this out without revolution. The social conditions behind all this are well summarised in the Bangkok Post today:
http://www.bangkokpo...closing-the-gap
This states that Thailand is one of the most unequal countries in Asia, with the top 20% owning 69% of the wealth, while the bottom 20% have only 1%. Then look at the figures for annual income per capita broken down by region: the northeast is way below the other regions, though of course there are poor people in all parts of the country. The reds have an excellent case; the only argument I'd have with them is over their choice of leader, but Thaksin is the only leader who ever did anything for these ignored people. It might be nice if some of you (relatively) rich farangs stop insulting the reds and their supporters, calling them country bumpkins or whatever. These people have a good case and know what they're doing. They just want a chance to vote and then have the result respected. The same chance that many of us have in our countries.
I thought links to BKK Post articles was a no-no on TV.
Your points about ownership of the wealth of Thailand are correct. What you fail to mention is that Thaksin's TRT contained a substantial number of wealthy businessmen who are a major part of the problem. In fact that wasn't enough for them because they had to cream off government projects to stuff their pockets with more lucre. The red shirts have a case but only when they disconnect themselves from Thaksin & his cronies.
Posted 2010-03-22 18:42:50
Wolfie, on 2010-03-22 19:34:51, said: That's pretty much BM's position on this, yes... If you are not a red then you are the enemy
Not really, but as much as one hates to be inconvenienced I think its a better option to let them do their thing since at the end of the day it does no harm 
Posted 2010-03-22 18:42:59
I still can't really understand why Thais are fighting over who they want to F*&# them over, whatever color government wins the average Thai will surely be shafted once again!
They all should be fighting over 1 issue and that is corruption, its the basis of all problems in Thailand (and other countries for that matter)... stick together and denounce corruption...
Posted 2010-03-22 18:44:37
tilac2, on 2010-03-22 19:05:59, said: connel707, on 2010-03-22 10:55:27, said: geovalin, on 2010-03-22 09:07:41, said: Mitker, on 2010-03-22 02:53:38, said: Bring me any red shirt able to prove he/she knows Exim is not an exotic dish and Temasek a DIY brand and I will start to listen to him/her.
Until then, I just see them as manipulated folks serving the cause of a greedy, dictator-to-be billionaire on the run. They simply do not understand the game they are used for.
My factory staff is tuned all day long on a red shirts radio. Speechs would make you feel like you were listening to a Rwandese radio days before it went ugly.
Not good to insult the people.
By the way, when we, French, made the revolution in 1789, I'm pretty sure that some wise men like you told "the populace will never be able to manage the country". But we did! With difficulties yes but France is now a proud country with a stable government.
Same in USA when they expelled the British.
What are you Croaking about..??????
He's 'croaking' some good points. But I hope and believe that Thais -- being the tolerant and amenable people that they are -- will find a way to sort this out without revolution. The social conditions behind all this are well summarised in the Bangkok Post today:
http://www.bangkokpo...closing-the-gap
This states that Thailand is one of the most unequal countries in Asia, with the top 20% owning 69% of the wealth, while the bottom 20% have only 1%. Then look at the figures for annual income per capita broken down by region: the northeast is way below the other regions, though of course there are poor people in all parts of the country. The reds have an excellent case; the only argument I'd have with them is over their choice of leader, but Thaksin is the only leader who ever did anything for these ignored people. It might be nice if some of you (relatively) rich farangs stop insulting the reds and their supporters, calling them country bumpkins or whatever. These people have a good case and know what they're doing. They just want a chance to vote and then have the result respected. The same chance that many of us have in our countries.
The Philippines i think is arguably more unequal then Thailand . But you are right in essence . I think the reds have a good cause if only they would stop insisting on a blank cheque for Thaksin . If they did so PTP would join up with them and win the election .
If election there is .... But sooner or later has to be
Posted 2010-03-22 18:45:42
jonclark, on 2010-03-22 09:38:30, said: All this babbling about the same old topics of who is right and wrong. Both are right and both are wrong. No such thing as black and white in politics.
The point here is that next saturday we can expect more of the same!! This is going to inconvienience a lot of people who have lives to live and need to get out and about. I think if this happens then you can expect far worse gridlock next saturday and tempers getting frayed. It wouldn't surprise me to see a counter demonstration held at the same time.
Hopefully this announcement is just a barganing ploy by Jatuporn, as he sees Abhisit isn't budging on his precondition for talks. Hopefully it will amount to nothing and they will all sit down and discuss the future
exactly, this same old song and dance shows they have a long way to go toward total democracy. some shirt bearers don't really know what that term means, though they use it a lot. Really both sides have have done wrong things...but, look how long it took eurpope and other countries to find peace and agreement.
Posted 2010-03-22 18:51:42
britmaveric, on 2010-03-22 18:42:50, said: Wolfie, on 2010-03-22 19:34:51, said: That's pretty much BM's position on this, yes... If you are not a red then you are the enemy
Not really, but as much as one hates to be inconvenienced I think its a better option to let them do their thing since at the end of the day it does no harm
But should people be 'inconvenienced' enough to make a stand and say "No" - they are obviously planning to do violence, in your opinion?
(and we are talking Thai on Thai here... no farangs involved)
Posted 2010-03-22 18:58:17
Thai protesters vow to 'shut down' Bangkok on Saturday
BANGKOK (AFP) -- Thailand's red-shirted protesters vowed to "shut down" the capital Bangkok with a new anti-government rally this Saturday aimed at forcing fresh elections.
The supporters of deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra began mass demonstrations on March 14 with a gathering of more than 100,000 people, triggering a massive security operation involving 50,000 personnel.
Their numbers waned during the week but a carnival-style parade on Saturday drew around 65,000 protesters in a noisy procession through the streets of Bangkok.
"On Saturday we will shut down Bangkok and rally at provincial halls across the country," said Jatuporn Prompan, a leader of the "Red Shirts", who last week splattered the prime minister's home and offices with their own blood.
Jatuporn did not give further details but said Saturday's event would be similar to last weekend's one, in which a convoy of peaceful protesters snaked through the capital, causing traffic congestion in some areas.
He said the movement had cancelled plans to demonstrate outside a cabinet meeting being held at a ministry on the outskirts of Bangkok on Tuesday, saying such a protest would have been used by the government to justify a crackdown.
Another protest leader, Veera Musikapong, reiterated demands for talks with Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, rejecting the prime minister's offer of negotiations with a junior minister.
"He is the one who can dissolve the house," he told protesters at their encampment in the city's old quarter. "Free and fair elections will decide our future and end the political conflict, and everybody must accept the result."
-- ©Copyright AFP 2010-03-22
Published with written approval from AFP.
Posted 2010-03-22 18:58:31
morphem, on 2010-03-22 19:11:13, said: shawndoc, on 2010-03-22 10:44:37, said: Once again, congrats to the Red Shirts for keeping things peaceful. And while the blood thing was nasty and wrong, it was at least a non-violent act that succeeded in getting them some international press (although perhaps not the type they wanted).
However they don't seem to have sort of end game. Its clear they aren't going to get what they originally wanted, or what they pretended to want. What do they hope to achieve?
democracy instead of military dictatorship
Simple as that
I often wonder what percentage of the pro Thaksin element here at TV were even here for all of Thaksin's premeirship. It sure didn't feel much like a democracy then.
Posted 2010-03-22 19:02:28
^feels even worse now under the current regime.
Posted 2010-03-22 19:03:42
Corruption in politics always that uggly hydra .
Solution
1) Increase by 400% salaries of MP and ministers . I think this motion should sail through parliament 
2) Anyone found corrupted (give or take) , 5 years jail no bail , and prevented from participating in politics for life
Corruption in politics exist in Europe , as all over the world . Just make sure that you dont get caught !
Posted 2010-03-22 19:08:06
Wolfie, on 2010-03-22 18:51:42, said: britmaveric, on 2010-03-22 18:42:50, said: Wolfie, on 2010-03-22 19:34:51, said: That's pretty much BM's position on this, yes... If you are not a red then you are the enemy
Not really, but as much as one hates to be inconvenienced I think its a better option to let them do their thing since at the end of the day it does no harm
But should people be 'inconvenienced' enough to make a stand and say "No" - they are obviously planning to do violence, in your opinion?
(and we are talking Thai on Thai here... no farangs involved)
Not quite. On Saturday I saw on two occasions farangs in the back of pick-ups protesting with the red shirts. One was a young woman - in her twenties - and the other a male in his late thirties/forties. They were not together. They were definitely not "look kreung".
Weird but true!
Posted 2010-03-22 19:13:54
lannarebirth, on 2010-03-22 19:58:31, said: morphem, on 2010-03-22 19:11:13, said: shawndoc, on 2010-03-22 10:44:37, said: Once again, congrats to the Red Shirts for keeping things peaceful. And while the blood thing was nasty and wrong, it was at least a non-violent act that succeeded in getting them some international press (although perhaps not the type they wanted).
However they don't seem to have sort of end game. Its clear they aren't going to get what they originally wanted, or what they pretended to want. What do they hope to achieve?
democracy instead of military dictatorship
Simple as that
I often wonder what percentage of the pro Thaksin element here at TV were even here for all of Thaksin's premeirship. It sure didn't feel much like a democracy then.
Well it was evil against evil . hope at the end some good come out of it
Edited by moresomekl, 2010-03-22 19:14:44.
Posted 2010-03-22 19:19:44
Every person I saw on the street was shaking their head in disgust!!
Posted 2010-03-22 19:20:19
lannarebirth, on 2010-03-22 18:58:31, said: morphem, on 2010-03-22 19:11:13, said: shawndoc, on 2010-03-22 10:44:37, said: Once again, congrats to the Red Shirts for keeping things peaceful. And while the blood thing was nasty and wrong, it was at least a non-violent act that succeeded in getting them some international press (although perhaps not the type they wanted).
However they don't seem to have sort of end game. Its clear they aren't going to get what they originally wanted, or what they pretended to want. What do they hope to achieve?
democracy instead of military dictatorship
Simple as that
I often wonder what percentage of the pro Thaksin element here at TV were even here for all of Thaksin's premeirship. It sure didn't feel much like a democracy then.
You're right. I remember going to Lumpini Park on a Friday evening - around 2006 - to observe one of the first anti-Thaksin/anti-government gatherings - other than a few that had previously taken place at Thamasat and there was a real and palpable climate of fear then.
The protesters there - were in my opinion very brave. There was a huge - over the top - police presence. This was when the judiciary were in Thaksin's pocket and there were no longer any organisations or bodies acting as a 'check and balance' to the rampant authoritarianism that the country was in the grip of.
In short - it was terrible.
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