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[JOESHEAD]

F1fanatic, on 2010-04-10 19:29:48, said:

O.K., but you've made no attempt to answer the points raised in my post - all of it, not just the bit you've quoted - although I would appreciate a response to that too.

I kind of thought I just did!

You seemed to imply that tourists are lulled in to a false sense of security, and aren't aware that the Thai mentality can be to retaliate mob handed, and if they knew maybe they would behave themselves better. My response to that was tough, play with fire and you'll get burnt.

I also think your point is inaccurate because I believe the huge majority of tourists use Tuk Tuks without any negative feelings toward them or the driver, and that includes being happy to pay the price, which in holiday/tourist terms is pretty cheap. So as I said before, behave yourself, negotiate a price before you move and 99% of the time you will have no issues.

You also said several times, that Thais were beating up people, without knowing the reason, just because they hate Farangs. I would suggest that Thai people, that way inclined, would be just as quick to pile in if their mate was hitting another Thai. Mob mentality is just that, there isn't to much logic or thought involved.

[F1fanatic]

JOESHEAD, on 2010-04-10 19:56:15, said:

F1fanatic, on 2010-04-10 19:29:48, said:

O.K., but you've made no attempt to answer the points raised in my post - all of it, not just the bit you've quoted - although I would appreciate a response to that too.

I kind of thought I just did!

You seemed to imply that tourists are lulled in to a false sense of security, and aren't aware that the Thai mentality can be to retaliate mob handed, and if they knew maybe they would behave themselves better. My response to that was tough, play with fire and you'll get burnt.

I also think your point is inaccurate because I believe the huge majority of tourists use Tuk Tuks without any negative feelings toward them or the driver, and that includes being happy to pay the price, which in holiday/tourist terms is pretty cheap. So as I said before, behave yourself, negotiate a price before you move and 99% of the time you will have no issues.

You also said several times, that Thais were beating up people, without knowing the reason, just because they hate Farangs. I would suggest that Thai people, that way inclined, would be just as quick to pile in if their mate was hitting another Thai. Mob mentality is just that, there isn't to much logic or thought involved.

I get your point now, but disagree that its OK to blame the tourists involved once "mob mentality" is added to the equation.

You're probably right that the men who piled in were friends of the tuk-tuk driver involved - but unless the tourists were beating up the tuk-tuk driver - they had no right to do anything other than involve the police. It sounds as if this was not the case but that they took the smallest opportunity to attack, mob handed. Why?

As I said before, the tuk-tuk drivers were working to make money from the drunk tourists. This is probably why they were looking for an excuse to beat up an annoying farang. But that's not good enough when that's how you make your money.

[JOESHEAD]

ScubaBuddha, on 2010-04-10 19:45:15, said:

I didn't realize you knew the victims personally and had seen how this incident started. Glad we got that started out. We can close the book and the thread on this one now.

BTW, why do you keep saying everyone is feeling sorry for the tourists and everyone is blaming the Thai's that started it? The posts have been fairly neutral and balanced. Your creating an argument against a position which doesn't exist. Everyone here knows that the tourists may have done something to start this.

My discussion with 'F1fanatic' was talking in general terms and not referring to the original incident particularly, so your sarcasm, asking me if I knew the victims personally, is wasted.

I think my original post was as about balanced and neural as they come. I said the drivers were wrong to retaliate the way they did, but there is a good chance, if not in this case then certainly in others, that they instigated their own beating with their behaviour, to which I have no sympathy. My lack of sympathy doesn't change just because their punishment was harsher than it needed to be.

When 'NKMan' asked 'what will happen when 8 young guys on holiday refuse to get ripped off? he is undoubtedly implying that the tourists should be felt sorry for. When 'Thongkon' said 'people do silly things on holiday, you just let things go' he also was relieving the tourist of any blame. Just two examples of un-neutral posts, I'm sure there's plenty more.

When you made your OP, it was just another, good old Thai Visa, anti tuk tuk post, where things always get blown out of proportion (I think the post about Thai men beating up old grannies is the new target to beat) I just think if they're going to get the constant attention (a lot of it deserved) then the pond life Farang, that are more often than not at the center of all trouble, should get a fair mention as well.

[stevenl]

Why does a fight have to be fair, i thought it was to win?

[surangw]

a busy area ( tourists) and no videos or pictures have come out on this?

[JOESHEAD]

surangw, on 2010-04-10 22:23:35, said:

a busy area ( tourists) and no videos or pictures have come out on this?

Things like this are over as quick as they start. Unlikely footage will ever materialise. I would like to hear from the other Thai Visa members that witnessed the event, to hear if their account differs in any way from the OP. No disrespect 'Scubabuddha', I generally like your posts, but lets face it, 20 people was probably really 12 and I would guess no more than 8 of them landed any punches or kicks. Don't get me wrong that's still atrocious behaviour, but goes to show how things get exaggerated and blown way out of proportion. Think about it, 20 people around a Tuk Tuk! it would be physically impossible for them all to be actively involved. Unless they formed a queue of course. From the sound of the OP you would expect people to be on deaths door. The truth is probably a bruise or two. Again not making light of what happened, people just need to put a reality check on things.

[thepanicandthevomit]

JOESHEAD, on 2010-04-11 01:05:59, said:

surangw, on 2010-04-10 22:23:35, said:

a busy area ( tourists) and no videos or pictures have come out on this?

Things like this are over as quick as they start. Unlikely footage will ever materialise. I would like to hear from the other Thai Visa members that witnessed the event, to hear if their account differs in any way from the OP. No disrespect 'Scubabuddha', I generally like your posts, but lets face it, 20 people was probably really 12 and I would guess no more than 8 of them landed any punches or kicks. Don't get me wrong that's still atrocious behaviour, but goes to show how things get exaggerated and blown way out of proportion. Think about it, 20 people around a Tuk Tuk! it would be physically impossible for them all to be actively involved. Unless they formed a queue of course. From the sound of the OP you would expect people to be on deaths door. The truth is probably a bruise or two. Again not making light of what happened, people just need to put a reality check on things.

Extraordinary...

[thepanicandthevomit]

F1fanatic, on 2010-04-10 18:51:12, said:

thepanicandthevomit, on 2010-04-10 16:52:22, said:

Hate-Own-Nationality-Bed-Wetting-Syndrome

I think you've missed the point of anuid's post.... it was not derogatory to Westerners.

I think you missed the point of my post!

[thepanicandthevomit]

JOESHEAD, on 2010-04-10 21:36:12, said:

When you made your OP, it was just another, good old Thai Visa, anti tuk tuk post, where things always get blown out of proportion (I think the post about Thai men beating up old grannies is the new target to beat) I just think if they're going to get the constant attention (a lot of it deserved) then the pond life Farang, that are more often than not at the center of all trouble, should get a fair mention as well.

You missed this one then chief?

Lovely, charming tuk tuk drivers, giving great service to the elderly

[F1fanatic]

thepanicandthevomit, on 2010-04-11 00:30:20, said:

I think you missed the point of my post!

Sorry, I should have been more specific - it was not derogatory to Westerners who have been here a while and have some idea of what's going on. If I've still got it wrong (and I may have! ) - I'm sorry.

[thepanicandthevomit]

You have and apology accepted!

[cotambear]

JOESHEAD, on 2010-04-10 18:05:59, said:

Things like this are over as quick as they start. Unlikely footage will ever materialise. I would like to hear from the other Thai Visa members that witnessed the event, to hear if their account differs in any way from the OP. No disrespect 'Scubabuddha', I generally like your posts, but lets face it, 20 people was probably really 12 and I would guess no more than 8 of them landed any punches or kicks. Don't get me wrong that's still atrocious behaviour, but goes to show how things get exaggerated and blown way out of proportion. Think about it, 20 people around a Tuk Tuk! it would be physically impossible for them all to be actively involved. Unless they formed a queue of course. From the sound of the OP you would expect people to be on deaths door. The truth is probably a bruise or two. Again not making light of what happened, people just need to put a reality check on things.

Oh  thats  alright  then.  Thanks  for  putting  my  mind  at  rest.

[JOESHEAD]

thepanicandthevomit, on 2010-04-11 00:28:35, said:

Extraordinary...

Thank you.

[NamKangMan]

JOESHEAD, on 2010-04-10 21:36:12, said:

My discussion with 'F1fanatic' was talking in general terms and not referring to the original incident particularly, so your sarcasm, asking me if I knew the victims personally, is wasted.

I think my original post was as about balanced and neural as they come. I said the drivers were wrong to retaliate the way they did, but there is a good chance, if not in this case then certainly in others, that they instigated their own beating with their behaviour, to which I have no sympathy. My lack of sympathy doesn't change just because their punishment was harsher than it needed to be.

When 'NKMan' asked 'what will happen when 8 young guys on holiday refuse to get ripped off? he is undoubtedly implying that the tourists should be felt sorry for. When 'Thongkon' said 'people do silly things on holiday, you just let things go' he also was relieving the tourist of any blame. Just two examples of un-neutral posts, I'm sure there's plenty more.

When you made your OP, it was just another, good old Thai Visa, anti tuk tuk post, where things always get blown out of proportion (I think the post about Thai men beating up old grannies is the new target to beat) I just think if they're going to get the constant attention (a lot of it deserved) then the pond life Farang, that are more often than not at the center of all trouble, should get a fair mention as well.

Joe, statistically, we are seing more and more negative incidents reported within this industry.  I don't care who was at fault, however, 20 tuk-tuk drivers bashing 2 passengers draws attention, and that attention, is negative attention, and that negative attention results in lower numbers of passengers, which, I suspect, goes to increasing prices, in order to still maintain a similar profit margin (typic Thai business ethics).  However, this will just create future conflict with passengers and more arguments, and when an argument ensues, that seems to be a green light for 20 other drivers to join in and bash the passengers and there's more negative publicity.

Even if the 2 passengers, in this case, were in the wrong, HOW, can you justify the other 19 drivers joing in to bash the 2 passengers????  If this is an indication of the character of people who drive tuk-tuks in Phuket, what future has this industry got.  The word is spreading through the media and internet not to use them, because of THEIR actions, not the actions of their passengers.

[JOESHEAD]

'F1fanatic', you've missed the point of his post twice now and I'm fairly sure you're still none the wiser. Never fear though, that just means you're nice normal folk. He was in fact copying the previous poster and having a dig at me, it would seem using a pretend syndrome. The joke is well and truly on him though, because I haven't wet the bed for ages.

[ScubaBuddha]

JOESHEAD, on 2010-04-10 20:36:12, said:

ScubaBuddha, on 2010-04-10 19:45:15, said:

I didn't realize you knew the victims personally and had seen how this incident started. Glad we got that started out. We can close the book and the thread on this one now.

BTW, why do you keep saying everyone is feeling sorry for the tourists and everyone is blaming the Thai's that started it? The posts have been fairly neutral and balanced. Your creating an argument against a position which doesn't exist. Everyone here knows that the tourists may have done something to start this.

My discussion with 'F1fanatic' was talking in general terms and not referring to the original incident particularly, so your sarcasm, asking me if I knew the victims personally, is wasted.

Apparently it's not wasted. You've been making these same assumptions about the victims from the beginning, and now you are retracting. Good decision there.

JOESHEAD, on 2010-04-10 20:36:12, said:

When you made your OP, it was just another, good old Thai Visa, anti tuk tuk post,

The original post was exactly how it happened. And believe it or not I actually have posted positive things about tuk tuks before. (once one actually stopped to let me enter traffic!) It would be hard to color it so the tuk tuks came out looking good in this one, (but apparently they will as I was just told by the editor of a local news source the police are denying this incident took place.) I even stated that I didn't know how it started. I guarantee that if the number of Thai's involved wasn't in the 20's it was very close to it. The exact number is irrelevant. Certainly more than 12 to 8. The number involved was even discussed with my mates after. And yes they actually were taking turns. And as I also said the incident started outside the tuk tuks and the tourists retreated into the tuk tuk as some kind of shelter.

I am told that at least one other witness will be along soon to confirm my story as soon as he can get online.

[JOESHEAD]

NamKangMan, on 2010-04-11 01:38:32, said:

Joe, statistically, we are seing more and more negative incidents reported within this industry. I don't care who was at fault, however, 20 tuk-tuk drivers bashing 2 passengers draws attention, and that attention, is negative attention, and that negative attention results in lower numbers of passengers, which, I suspect, goes to increasing prices, in order to still maintain a similar profit margin (typic Thai business ethics). However, this will just create future conflict with passengers and more arguments, and when an argument ensues, that seems to be a green light for 20 other drivers to join in and bash the passengers and there's more negative publicity.

Even if the 2 passengers, in this case, were in the wrong, HOW, can you justify the other 19 drivers joing in to bash the 2 passengers???? If this is an indication of the character of people who drive tuk-tuks in Phuket, what future has this industry got. The word is spreading through the media and internet not to use them, because of THEIR actions, not the actions of their passengers.

Good post mate, although I must admit it threw me for a while, what with lack of sarcasm and bias. I'm afraid I still don't agree with you though.

On Thai Visa, there's never anybody saying I told you so. I said this would happen and boom, there's the proof. It's only ever people making predictions that never come to fruition. The death of tourism in Phuket, the death of Tuk Tuks bla bla bla. It never happens.  

What people never get in to their heads, is for every, shock horror story on Thai Visa, Tuk Tuks have ferried tens of thousands of satisfied customers. People who weren't drunk, people who weren't abusive, people who didn't think there should be a baht bus, just people who wanted to get from A to B for 300 baht. That's why they were here 10 years ago, thats why they are here now, and that's why they will probably be here in 10 years time.

[ALFREDO]

I spent all together in the last 20 years some years in Patong. I had never a big need to use Tuk Tuks or Motobike taxis, because I drive myself with car and Motobike. But sometimes I used and I use Tuk Tuks and Motobike taxis.
I had never a bigger problem, I usualy drink not much alcohol and when, than I am still friendly and polite, my English is good, but Thai I still speak only some words which I always use.
If the prices are to high they ask for, I say sorry, to expensive and usualy look for another driver.
The price from Bangla to Nanai should now be in the early morning hours 200 B. when I on the way to a sexy adventure, I have no problem to pay that 4,5 Euro. I can live with that.
Motobike is now about 40-50 Baht for Nanai to Soi Bangla, once a driver asked for 100 B. There is no argument than, I just move on.

[JOESHEAD]

ScubaBuddha, on 2010-04-11 04:04:30, said:

I am told that at least one other witness will be along soon to confirm my story as soon as he can get online.

So that'll be one of your mates then??

Let me guess, it happened just how you said.

I haven't retracted anything I've said, as you claim. Sometimes conversations evolve and look at things on a larger scale. Apologies if you couldn't  keep up. I have never said that I know what the Farang did, if anything, to cause the fracas, just that the probability was high that it was their own doing. The bigger picture was then being discussed. Other Tuk Tuk incidents and other bad behaviour by Farangs. Again, apologies if you couldn't keep up with the pace of the conversation.

Your posts in the past have made it quite clear, that you are moments away from starting an anti Tuk Tuk movement, and dedicating your whole life to it. They're not that bad. Let it go.

[JOESHEAD]

ALFREDO, on 2010-04-11 04:39:53, said:

I spent all together in the last 20 years some years in Patong. I had never a big need to use Tuk Tuks or Motobike taxis, because I drive myself with car and Motobike. But sometimes I used and I use Tuk Tuks and Motobike taxis.
I had never a bigger problem, I usualy drink not much alcohol and when, than I am still friendly and polite, my English is good, but Thai I still speak only some words which I always use.
If the prices are to high they ask for, I say sorry, to expensive and usualy look for another driver.
The price from Bangla to Nanai should now be in the early morning hours 200 B. when I on the way to a sexy adventure, I have no problem to pay that 4,5 Euro. I can live with that.
Motobike is now about 40-50 Baht for Nanai to Soi Bangla, once a driver asked for 100 B. There is no argument than, I just move on.

Alfredo you have made my night. Not only is your attitude spot on, but you express yourself better than most native English speakers on TV do. Dramas are so easily avoided if you're not an idiot. The huge majority of people get by in Thailand and Phuket without any run ins. Those of you that don't, maybe it's just you.

Lets face it, when you're on the way to a 'sexy adventure' who cares who's driving?

[Ping]

There are some good folk amongst the tuk tuk driver people and there are some bad. I've seen them perform good samaritan deeds and I've seen them commit disgusting acts of violence as well. The most recent was a savage attack on a drunken and obnoxious farang - far beyond any level of justification (the farang was beaten unconscious by a mob of them and then continued to be kicked and beaten). There are proper ways of dealing with obnoxious drunks; it's a job for the BiB. The police situation and the environment in Phuket is totally different from the way that things are done in the rural provinces. Unfortunately, these people coming from the provinces to work in Phuket don't seem to understand that.

Despite the good ones amongst them, the tuk tuk industry in Phuket is an organised, extortionate mob - nothing more, nothing less. And the types of folks who are attracted to work in this type of industry are often going to be overly represented by thugs. There needs to be a total revamp of the industry to prevent the licensing of these thugs and the Governor needs to expedite his efforts to eradicate extortionate fares. And there also needs to be proper training of drivers and a liaison between them and the BiB so that they can rely upon the police to deal with these types of situations, where necessary. There also needs to be some effort to train police to take action in these matters that would act as a deterrent to violence - such as actually investigating these incidents at the scene rather than merely slinging the bruised and battered farang into the back of the ute and driving off. (Yes, there are other cultural issues of payoffs and associations that will also need to be addressed, with all the implications that this brings, and it certainly could not happen overnight. But someone needs to step up to the mark (Governor?) and begin to tackle this thorny issue.)

For those BMs who seek to justify the behaviour of the drivers, consider the way in which these types of situations are handled in your home country; and then imagine the outcry that would occur if the Phuket TTM approach were prevalent in your own home country.


E:T

Edited by Ping, 2010-04-11 06:13:37.

[cdmtdm]

chuppachops, on 2010-04-10 18:02:10, said:

On kata beach yesterday afternoon i saw a tuk tuk driver beating the hel_l out of a thai girl with a huge tree trunk it was terrible. A crowd of about 70 people watched it and some of the tourists recorded it on their camcorders. The girl was a right mess with an 8 inch gash on her head and looked like a broken arm too... the police came and took him away and the log too. The girl was rushed off to hospital.

very bad image of phuket imo.

what a disgrace ..... 70 people watching and on one stepped in to help a defenseless girl being beaten by a thug with a log....... you and the other crowd should be ashamed , gutless cowards , this is where the problem stems from no one has any balls anymore ..... what happened to the simple  RIGHT and Wrong ..... hope you slept well ...........

[Seelow]

JOESHEAD, on 2010-04-10 14:19:27, said:

The amount of people coming to Phuket will never be affected by Tuk Tuk drivers, I assure you of that.

That Mr.Joeshead is where you are so very very wrong.

I totally refuse to be held hostage by these thugs charging more than a London taxi, so in November my wife and three other family members have booked into Kotakinabalu instead.
So Mr. JH, you are wrong 5 times already!

[ScubaBuddha]

cdmtdm, on 2010-04-11 06:10:50, said:

what a disgrace ..... 70 people watching and on one stepped in to help a defenseless girl being beaten by a thug with a log....... you and the other crowd should be ashamed , gutless cowards , this is where the problem stems from no one has any balls anymore ..... what happened to the simple  RIGHT and Wrong ..... hope you slept well ...........

Calling the guy a gutless coward is a bit premature. The description was a bit brief. It's easy to be a keyboard warrior but we weren't there so we don't know the exact details. I agree the "bystander effect" as it is called can be disturbing. Physiologically and sociologically the bystander effect is very similar to the mob effect. In the prior the bystander thinks someone else will surely so something since their are so many people. Why should it be them? The individual stops seeing themselves as an individual and instead they see themselves as just a small part of a large organism. This rationalizes the bystanders non-action. They will think someone else has probably called the police.  

Having said that, I will add going one on one with a log wielding tuk tuk driver who we all know will be backed up by his tuk tuk mafia mates is a recipe for suicide. Then potentially spending some time and money with the BIB to get it sorted is not a nice prospect. One would think that you coming to the aid of a woman being beaten by a man with a weapon which can kill, that you would be seen as the good guy by anyone witnessing it, but we all know that a man beating a woman does not carry the same taboo it does in the west.  Some may remember my post about seeing the Thai man beating the Thai woman and whether I should have intervened. The majority of responses to that thread were to leave it alone, not my country/not my problem. A bit surprising to hear from on-Thai's as that is the Thai way, not as much so in the west, although of course it still happens. Overwhelmingly the Thai's I spoke to about this incident said leave it alone. Don't stop, don't call the police.  

Also, generally speaking it has been shown foreigners in any country have a tendency for inaction for fear of getting deported if events are twisted to be against them.

The bystander effect happens in every culture, but non interference, even with the police, is much more common here. There is a youtube video of a fight in Pattaya where the cops arrive, make a half hearted effort to seperate the 2-3 women fighting, then give up and let them at it as the growing crowd of mostly Thai's cheer at the police's decision to let them continue fighting. Really disgusting stuff.

Often being a good witness and call 191 or 1155 is the best and only thing you can do. If I had a recording of the incident I would take it to the police.

JOESHEAD, on 2010-04-11 05:08:35, said:

Your posts in the past have made it quite clear, that you are moments away from starting an anti Tuk Tuk movement, and dedicating your whole life to it. They're not that bad. Let it go.

Not a bad idea, if I didn't think I would eventually be found dead in a ditch somewhere. I think the anti tuk tuk movement is starting all by itself. It doesn't need my help.

It looks like someone has already got a domain name. I recently found this site. http://www.phukettuktuks.com/

Really surprising there are actually people defending them on this thread, but this is Thai Visa so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

JOESHEAD, I'm curious, do you perhaps have some inlaws that drive tuk tuks?  

Edited by ScubaBuddha, 2010-04-11 12:41:29.

[NamKangMan]

JOESHEAD, on 2010-04-11 05:22:10, said:

Good post mate, although I must admit it threw me for a while, what with lack of sarcasm and bias. I'm afraid I still don't agree with you though.

On Thai Visa, there's never anybody saying I told you so. I said this would happen and boom, there's the proof. It's only ever people making predictions that never come to fruition. The death of tourism in Phuket, the death of Tuk Tuks bla bla bla. It never happens.

What people never get in to their heads, is for every, shock horror story on Thai Visa, Tuk Tuks have ferried tens of thousands of satisfied customers. People who weren't drunk, people who weren't abusive, people who didn't think there should be a baht bus, just people who wanted to get from A to B for 300 baht. That's why they were here 10 years ago, thats why they are here now, and that's why they will probably be here in 10 years time.

I've never predicted the death of Phuket - I have, however, stated in previous posts, that I believe they are outpricing themselves from a very big slice of the tourism market, due to rapidly rising prices on the island, for no explainable economic reason.

As far as tuk-tuks, I have sat on Beach Road and had lunch, several times, usually for about an hour a pop.  I haven't seen many people engage tuk-tuks for their service, and, considering they span just about the whole length of Beach Road, I am wondering how they now earn a living, without ripping off the odd customer they do get.  Seriously, the tuk-tuk at the back of the que, he must get 1 fare a week as it must take a week for him to get to the front of the que.  

Joe, you seem to shoot posts down in flames at a rate in which you believe your posts are being shot down, how about you supply the readers of TV with your observations, facts, statistics etc. I don't read anything concrete coming out of your posts except for if a guy who has had a few beers decides to argue why he should pay 10 times more money than he did in Bangkok for a journey 10 times shorter, he deserves to be bashed, robbed and possibly stabbed.