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[Samuian]

hammered, on 2010-08-02 15:36:57, said:

..........edited ......

every scholarship for anything ends up being taken up by a wealthy person's kid who0 doesnt need it, so the ingrained culture of corruption within bureacracies may mean any attempts at targettign money or opporitunity to the poor will inevitably be undermined. Confronting and dealing with that will be another huge problem.

Point made!

[Deeral]

Samuian, on 2010-08-05 10:33:12, said:

hammered, on 2010-08-02 15:36:57, said:

..........edited ......

every scholarship for anything ends up being taken up by a wealthy person's kid who0 doesnt need it, so the ingrained culture of corruption within bureacracies may mean any attempts at targettign money or opporitunity to the poor will inevitably be undermined. Confronting and dealing with that will be another huge problem.

Point made!

So it's the rich who shouldn't have money?

[Heng]

Have run into plenty of 'poor' folks on scholarship stateside.   The 'problem' is that a good number stay on stateside and don't return to Thailand until they are fairly well off (and by then, they are basically part of the group that a lot of folks on here think are keeping everyone else 'down') and the ones that do aren't able to 'run with the ball' because the rest of their family aren't in any financial condition to put them in business.   A lot of these guys end up as career academics.

[animatic]

Deeral, on 2010-08-05 10:51:38, said:

Samuian, on 2010-08-05 10:33:12, said:

hammered, on 2010-08-02 15:36:57, said:

..........edited ......

every scholarship for anything ends up being taken up by a wealthy person's kid who0 doesnt need it, so the ingrained culture of corruption within bureacracies may mean any attempts at targettign money or opporitunity to the poor will inevitably be undermined. Confronting and dealing with that will be another huge problem.

Point made!

So it's the rich who shouldn't have money?

A shame the obvious is not clear.

He means that the poor are the ones needing the scholarships desperately,
but too often they go to a moderately rich or bloody rich and connected child,
because  his parents know someone, and want the glory of their child winning
the prize or just want the cash because every little bit helps them rise in the kow tow lifestyle..

[wayfarer108]

JohanV, on 2010-08-02 23:47:29, said:

jayboy, on 2010-08-02 18:09:34, said:

yoshiwara, on 2010-08-02 14:28:50, said:

Andrew Marshall may be conned as a number of correspondents have been

Any chance of establishing which reputable international media outlets have not been conned? Thought not.

I now have read through the entire Andrew Marshall article and i have to say it seems to me it is an opinion piece
and not a report in any objective manner. Actually, from a journalistic viewpoint it is rather poor as the reasoning
in the article is motivated by only small bites of quotes which he then comments on, with no second- or third-party
opinions quoted at all. He also leaves serious empty holes by avoiding to do any deeper analysis and shows
a level of cultural understanding worthy some American tourist.
It's obvious that he hasn't been here and he has done no personal interviews or research.
I don't see any value in reading it for anyone who wants to understand something about the crisis in Thailand.
It's a propaganda piece, nothing more.
---

As for 'conned' western journalists and the general 'look-at-the-west-tossing' that is going on in almost every
english-language debate here on this subject there are some things worth mentioning:

# Being a western journalist does not mean that you know what you talk about.
   Many - especially red shirt supporters - are referring to western media as some kind of 'truth' - triumphantly
   saying 'you see?' as soon as they find a western article or newsflash that supports their standpoint.
   Being a European I know all too well how totally biased and commercialised/politicised the media is there.
   Perhaps there's not much of Thai-style government intervention, but there are countless other reasons the
   western media is all but trustworthy.

# Most Thais fail to understand the profound impact WWII + Soviet communism had on the European mindset.
   The whole idea of military power in combination with government/politics makes any European immediately
   thinking of Hitler and Stalin. For example - the Thai tradition of posing on election posters in uniform with medals
   dangling on the chest would be a total political suicide in the west due to this.
   So - the western newspapers want to write stories that SELLS, thus they have to appeal to the mindset of the average
   European. And, in this context, a story about "the poor fighting for democracy against the military regime"
   rings far better than, say "the poor being tricked into fighting to replace one corrupt politician with another".. or such
   - for an average European - truly strange stuff that one only can understand by living here in SEA for a longer period of time.

My point is: The western media is not 'conned'. They simply want to angle the news reports in a manner that sells
as much newspapers as possible. Thus, they choose to base the reports about Thailand on what Europeans
generally understand about military, politics and riots, which is Hitler, Stalin, -68 students and Che Guevara, basically.
It's nothing strange with that, but it's of course biased and partly untrue. As most news reports actually tend to be.

To answer jayboy:
As an example of a relatively non-'conned' news source, I would suggest Al-Jazeera, who did an excellent job superimposing
Mr Amsterdam's "Thaksin is only for peace" interview on footage of red shirt violence, just to illustrate that there are two sides
of the story. But they don't have that European WWII ballast as they are arabic, so it makes sense.

Cheers

Well argued.

I also just read the Andrew Marshall piece. His bias is steep, especially in this statement:

Quote

The clumsy effort to dismiss Thailand’s poor as plodding idiots was not an isolated insult – it is at the heart of the philosophy of supporters of the current government led by Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva.

How on earth did he come to that conclusion? Run a poll? Just grabbed it out of thin air, more likely.

Here in Bangkok it's widely known that Marshall is Red. Everyone's free to take sides, but he really should be more explicit about it instead of pretending to be objective.

But I do have to agree with Marshall that the photo is amusing, and the placard is insulting both to Thaksin supporters and to whomever wrote the placard. There is plenty of idiocy to go around on all sides.

[kpmsprtd]

I could understand dismissing the views of "journalists" who parachuted into Bangkok for the riots and straight back out. But to dismiss the views of a serious journalist who has made himself into a Thailand expert (language ability, Thai friends and sources, frequent time spent in country even when based out of country), well, that just seems silly. I doubt if there is anyone who could change your beliefs no matter what kind of case they presented.

[seri thai]

JohanV, on 2010-08-02 23:47:29, said:

# Most Thais fail to understand the profound impact WWII + Soviet communism had on the European mindset.
  
Perhaps you should also consider the profound impact WWII + Chinese communism had on the Thai mindset?
It also goes to the fear and respect attached to the scrambled egg on ones white military jacket.
I once went to the photographers shop for a permit photo and asked if I could wear one (They have velcro on the back for quick removal-one size fits all)
He politely informed me I could not as I was not thai. Fair enough then. I personally think all the uniforms should come with velcro on the back for ease of removal when the need arises

[Deeral]

seri thai, on 2010-08-05 13:13:01, said:

JohanV, on 2010-08-02 23:47:29, said:

# Most Thais fail to understand the profound impact WWII + Soviet communism had on the European mindset.
  
Perhaps you should also consider the profound impact WWII + Chinese communism had on the Thai mindset?
It also goes to the fear and respect attached to the scrambled egg on ones white military jacket.
I once went to the photographers shop for a permit photo and asked if I could wear one (They have velcro on the back for quick removal-one size fits all)
He politely informed me I could not as I was not thai. Fair enough then. I personally think all the uniforms should come with velcro on the back for ease of removal when the need arises

Communism? - Europe??

You might want to look at post WW2 policies of USA rather than Europe and their subsequent effects on Thailand.

Their has always been a huge Chinese influence in Thailand - one way or another but communism remained legal pretty much everywhere in Europe - post war paranoia by the States was the dominant influence on all of South East Asia. and Thailand was no less a part of this than any other country in the region

Edited by Deeral, 2010-08-05 13:20:37.

[JohanV]

kpmsprtd, on 2010-08-05 13:05:51, said:

I could understand dismissing the views of "journalists" who parachuted into Bangkok for the riots and straight back out. But to dismiss the views of a serious journalist who has made himself into a Thailand expert (language ability, Thai friends and sources, frequent time spent in country even when based out of country), well, that just seems silly. I doubt if there is anyone who could change your beliefs no matter what kind of case they presented.

If you refer to Marshall, which I assume you are:

The proof is in the pudding, as they say.
Totally regardless of where he is born, what languages he speaks or how much time he spent in Thailand or anywhere else,
he simply doesn't write like a serious journalist. No third party viewpoints, no sources, opinions masked as facts etc.

I would say he is showing almost the full catalogue of journalistic shortcomings that are so common everywhere in media these days,
in Europe, the US and here - and possibly everywhere else. Using emotional, simplified punchlines and generalisations
DOES make it easier to sell news to people who don't analyse what they read - like fast food chains, but for news,
but it is not good journalism.

Any criticism in this thread on Marshall's article has actually been based on its content and not on his personal background.
So, I honestly don't see your point. Should his background make him serious even though he writes like an ass ?
I would say: No.

[Deeral]

JohanV, on 2010-08-05 20:36:14, said:

kpmsprtd, on 2010-08-05 13:05:51, said:

I could understand dismissing the views of "journalists" who parachuted into Bangkok for the riots and straight back out. But to dismiss the views of a serious journalist who has made himself into a Thailand expert (language ability, Thai friends and sources, frequent time spent in country even when based out of country), well, that just seems silly. I doubt if there is anyone who could change your beliefs no matter what kind of case they presented.

If you refer to Marshall, which I assume you are:

The proof is in the pudding, as they say.
Totally regardless of where he is born, what languages he speaks or how much time he spent in Thailand or anywhere else,
he simply doesn't write like a serious journalist. No third party viewpoints, no sources, opinions masked as facts etc.

I would say he is showing almost the full catalogue of journalistic shortcomings that are so common everywhere in media these days,
in Europe, the US and here - and possibly everywhere else. Using emotional, simplified punchlines and generalisations
DOES make it easier to sell news to people who don't analyse what they read - like fast food chains, but for news,
but it is not good journalism.

Any criticism in this thread on Marshall's article has actually been based on its content and not on his personal background.
So, I honestly don't see your point. Should his background make him serious even though he writes like an ass ?
I would say: No.

talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

[cup-O-coffee]

On the one hand...

Quote

According to a report by the Krung Thep Turakij Newspapers, at least 40 ministers from the four governments since the Thaksin  administration to the current Abhisit administration own more than 100  rai of land each.

Uraiwan Tienthong is at the top of the list, as she is owning 1,886 rai  of land while 90 percent of the Thai population does not even own one  rai of land. This is merely one of the examples of those who must submit  their lists of assets to the National Anti-Corruption Commission for a  review.

There are still many more individuals and politicians who have  intentionally failed to disclose all of their assets. This means that  the social inequality is a chronic problem, not something new as some  may have been led to believe.

On the other hand...

Quote

In January 2007, the Financial Institution Development Fund complied with an Assets Examination Committee request to file a charge  against Thaksin and his wife over their purchase of four 772 million  baht plots of land from the FIDF in 2003. The charge was based on  alleged violation of Article 100 of the National Counter Corruption Act,  which prohibits government officials and their spouses from entering  into or having interests in contracts made with state agencies under  their authority.

So, by any other name, what are we saying here? Did someone we know about simply not do it the right way, and offended the government, instead of the people?

So, take it from the weaker ones, who cannot fight back, and avoid picking a fight with the ones who have power?

And since the weaker people are not the "State Agencies" under these Minister's authority, I guess that makes it ok to add / edit / or delete the needed paperwork in order to get that land. Yeah; that must be the way it's done.

Go figure!

Edited by cup-O-coffee, 2010-08-09 18:38:01.

[David9988]

You think they could at least find the funds somewhere for cosmetic issues.   Is cement really that expensive that Bangkok has to look like Baghdad compared to SGl/HK/JP?  Many areas of Thailand are in desperate need of being beautified.

Edited by David9988, 2010-08-09 20:28:38.