Prev Page 3 of 16 1 2 3 4 5 Next » Please log in to reply 393 replies to this topic

[Samuian]

Simply have difficulties to fathom why there are so many men, who wish they were a women, but still are attracted to men, suppose some sort of fetish of gay men.

katoyes aren't simply cross dressers I assume, seeing them around, in cabaret shows, it seems they really go off on their female roles.

Edited by Samuian, 2010-08-12 11:34:28.

[kpmsprtd]

@ Marky:

Quote

Again I think it may be necessary to ask what a man thinks he is and what he is may be two different things.  

Male ejaculate is not available from women.  Does a man who likes the above really not like men?  

Is what you are saying, I like a guy to CI(my)M or bottom but I am not attracted to men.  

I think that is a bit of a stretch.

Using the same hypothetical male as our example, let me attempt to clarify.

The man does not like semen in orifices; hence the use of condoms.

The man is not at all attracted to men other than as friends to hang out with / chat with / do things with. (Manly things: fishing, basketball, cars, looking at women, etc.)

The man sees ladyboys differently--as something other than men--sort of as women perhaps.

Occasionally, the man engages in physical relations with women-like, attractive ladyboys. This may or may not include the upper and lower body acts mentioned in your post, but it always includes condoms.

Much more often than with ladyboys, our man engages in physical relations with women where the roles are reversed. Perhaps he wants to know what it feels like to be the woman. Who knows? This may or may not involve the woman's finger and the male's rectum.

Now let me understand what you are saying?

• If our hypothetical male pretends to be a woman with a ladyboy and there are condomized physical relations involving upper and lower parts of the body, then he is gay?
• If our hypothetical male pretends to be a woman with a woman and there are physical relations involving the woman's finger and the male's rectum, then he is not gay?

Also, what about the fact that a significant number of gay men on this forum would agree that because our man is not physically attracted to men (masculine or feminine), he is not gay? Should we discount their expert opinion?

I admit that this is all quite confusing. I certainly don't have clear definitions. But where I'm left at is seeing our hypothetical man classified as non-gay by gay men, but classified as gay by straight men. This is quite a conundrum.

[earthpig]

Sex with a Fairie Queene is a convenient way for the true homophobe--a homosexual fearful of his own homosexuality--to act out. I doubt that too many folk comfortable in their sexual skins, whatever that might be, go for this breed.

As for the transvestite himself, the motivations to behave such can be many, including--if not indeed mainly--non sexual ones. As for those who whore, i cant imagine that their motivations are necessarily different from those of any other prostitute, which is to say either very simple or highly complex.

[mark45y]

kpmsprtd, on 2010-08-12 11:36:15, said:

@ Marky:

Quote

Again I think it may be necessary to ask what a man thinks he is and what he is may be two different things.  

Male ejaculate is not available from women.  Does a man who likes the above really not like men?  

Is what you are saying, I like a guy to CI(my)M or bottom but I am not attracted to men.  

I think that is a bit of a stretch.

Using the same hypothetical male as our example, let me attempt to clarify.

The man does not like semen in orifices; hence the use of condoms.

The man is not at all attracted to men other than as friends to hang out with / chat with / do things with. (Manly things: fishing, basketball, cars, looking at women, etc.)

The man sees ladyboys differently--as something other than men--sort of as women perhaps.

Occasionally, the man engages in physical relations with women-like, attractive ladyboys. This may or may not include the upper and lower body acts mentioned in your post, but it always includes condoms.

Much more often than with ladyboys, our man engages in physical relations with women where the roles are reversed. Perhaps he wants to know what it feels like to be the woman. Who knows? This may or may not involve the woman's finger and the male's rectum.

Now let me understand what you are saying?

• If our hypothetical male pretends to be a woman with a ladyboy and there are condomized physical relations involving upper and lower parts of the body, then he is gay?
• If our hypothetical male pretends to be a woman with a woman and there are physical relations involving the woman's finger and the male's rectum, then he is not gay?

Also, what about the fact that a significant number of gay men on this forum would agree that because our man is not physically attracted to men (masculine or feminine), he is not gay? Should we discount their expert opinion?

I admit that this is all quite confusing. I certainly don't have clear definitions. But where I'm left at is seeing our hypothetical man classified as non-gay by gay men, but classified as gay by straight men. This is quite a conundrum.

I can of course document my statement with current statistics but about 50% of men using lady boys in Pattaya don’t use condoms all of the time.  For oral sex that number is higher.  

And I think you have to ask yourself if disease were not an issue how many men would still use condoms?  I would imagine the number would be between 1 and 5 percent.  

I don’t think homosexuality or heterosexuality depends on condom use.  

Think about it for a minute.  The difference between a gay and straight man is condom use?  Hardly logical.

[canuckamuck]

If you have straight straight men on one side of the spectrum, and gay gay men on the other side, those who are into ladyboys are somewhere in between. Can you be partially gay? Or is it like being pregnant?

[mark45y]

kpmsprtd, on 2010-08-12 11:36:15, said:

@ Marky:

Quote

Again I think it may be necessary to ask what a man thinks he is and what he is may be two different things.  

Male ejaculate is not available from women.  Does a man who likes the above really not like men?  

Is what you are saying, I like a guy to CI(my)M or bottom but I am not attracted to men.  

I think that is a bit of a stretch.

Using the same hypothetical male as our example, let me attempt to clarify.

The man does not like semen in orifices; hence the use of condoms.

The man is not at all attracted to men other than as friends to hang out with / chat with / do things with. (Manly things: fishing, basketball, cars, looking at women, etc.)

The man sees ladyboys differently--as something other than men--sort of as women perhaps.

Occasionally, the man engages in physical relations with women-like, attractive ladyboys. This may or may not include the upper and lower body acts mentioned in your post, but it always includes condoms.

Much more often than with ladyboys, our man engages in physical relations with women where the roles are reversed. Perhaps he wants to know what it feels like to be the woman. Who knows? This may or may not involve the woman's finger and the male's rectum.

Now let me understand what you are saying?

• If our hypothetical male pretends to be a woman with a ladyboy and there are condomized physical relations involving upper and lower parts of the body, then he is gay?
• If our hypothetical male pretends to be a woman with a woman and there are physical relations involving the woman's finger and the male's rectum, then he is not gay?

Also, what about the fact that a significant number of gay men on this forum would agree that because our man is not physically attracted to men (masculine or feminine), he is not gay? Should we discount their expert opinion?

I admit that this is all quite confusing. I certainly don't have clear definitions. But where I'm left at is seeing our hypothetical man classified as non-gay by gay men, but classified as gay by straight men. This is quite a conundrum.

What about the significant number of gay posters here who would agree that because our man is not physically attracted to men masculine or feminine he is not gay?  

How can a man like to be boomed in the butt by a man and not be attracted to men?  What am I missing?  So the guy starts out wearing a skirt I would think in most cases he is not wearing a skirt later in the evening.  

So the guy says he is not attracted to men, that is interesting but hardly relevant when he is having sex with men.  

I think more of a case of cultural denial than any real measure of attraction.  

So let me pose a question to the gay men on this forum.  You walk in a room (not a prison) and in that room are two men having sex on a bed.  One is on top and one is on the bottom.  After a while they change positions or don’t change positions. Perhaps they are using condoms perhaps not.  Do you think the men are gay?  Or do you feel it necessary to ask them if they like men?  Do you think it is safe to assume that if two men are having consensual sex that they are gay?

[Jingthing]

meelousee, on 2010-08-12 06:37:34, said:

Very interesting poll results

As I predicted. Anyone who takes the time to do some basic research on this will see that the vast majority of men who like LBs do not identify as gay and the vast majority of men who identify as gay men have no sexual interest in females, real or LB.

[mark45y]

canuckamuck, on 2010-08-12 12:21:03, said:

If you have straight straight men on one side of the spectrum, and gay gay men on the other side, those who are into ladyboys are somewhere in between. Can you be partially gay? Or is it like being pregnant?

I would say partially gay is being bi sexual.  What kind of porn do you watch?  100% hetero?
90%?  Lady boy porn?  Fem guy porn?

[mark45y]

Just for the sake of discussion lets say I’m right.  If you have sex with guys you are gay or bi.  

Why does this upset gay men?  If I say I only like lady boys and not he man types does this make me less gay or on some kind of bottom rung of gay people.

[canuckamuck]

Because there are rules to being gay. A gay code if you will. They don't want the lady boy chasers in their club.

[Jingthing]

mark45y, on 2010-08-12 12:33:45, said:

Just for the sake of discussion lets say I’m right.  If you have sex with guys you are gay or bi.  

Why does this upset gay men?  If I say I only like lady boys and not he man types does this make me less gay or on some kind of bottom rung of gay people.

I can't answer that as every gay person is an individual. In my experience, straight identified men who are focused on LBs are not really considered gay people. they are considered straight men who like someone female, and if you ask them most feel hetero, so the gays are right. The LBs themselves (transgender etc. in the west) are often grouped in with sexual minorities the same as gay people so their can be some affinity between these groups, especially in countries where there is gay rights activism. But in real life mainstream gay people and LBs often despise each other. Not saying that is right, but just my observation. Gay people aren't any more saintly than anyone else, and as you may have noticed, we often don't agree on very much, same as everyone else.


Another thing to consider is the Kinsey scale. Under that theory all men are to some degree bisexual. Someone like me who doesn't have an ounce of heterosexual desire in my body may find that theory doesn't fit so well, but it is a scale, from totally gay to totally straight. Obviously there are a lot of potential bisexuals. Society often pressures us to make a firm choice, and most who do, will just stay in their camp and self identify that way for life.

Edited by Jingthing, 2010-08-12 12:49:23.

[mark45y]

Jingthing, on 2010-08-12 12:26:56, said:

meelousee, on 2010-08-12 06:37:34, said:

Very interesting poll results

As I predicted. Anyone who takes the time to do some basic research on this will see that the vast majority of men who like LBs do not identify as gay and the vast majority of men who identify as gay men have no sexual interest in females, real or LB.

So you are saying that sexual orientation depends on what you think you are as opposed to what you do?  

The examples are to many to list but that is a flawed statement.

[Jingthing]

mark45y, on 2010-08-12 12:50:03, said:

Jingthing, on 2010-08-12 12:26:56, said:

meelousee, on 2010-08-12 06:37:34, said:

Very interesting poll results

As I predicted. Anyone who takes the time to do some basic research on this will see that the vast majority of men who like LBs do not identify as gay and the vast majority of men who identify as gay men have no sexual interest in females, real or LB.

So you are saying that sexual orientation depends on what you think you are as opposed to what you do?  

The examples are to many to list but that is a flawed statement.

Sexual researchers say that. Why does this bother you so much? That's kind of weird.

[mark45y]

Jingthing, on 2010-08-12 12:44:06, said:

mark45y, on 2010-08-12 12:33:45, said:

Just for the sake of discussion lets say I’m right.  If you have sex with guys you are gay or bi.  

Why does this upset gay men?  If I say I only like lady boys and not he man types does this make me less gay or on some kind of bottom rung of gay people.

I can't answer that as every gay person is an individual. In my experience, straight identified men who are focused on LBs are not really considered gay people. they are considered straight men who like someone female, and if you ask them most feel hetero, so the gays are right. The LBs themselves (transgender etc. in the west) are often grouped in with sexual minorities the same as gay people so their can be some affinity between these groups, especially in countries where there is gay rights activism. But in real life mainstream gay people and LBs often despise each other. Not saying that is right, but just my observation. Gay people aren't any more saintly than anyone else, and as you may have noticed, we often don't agree on very much, same as everyone else.


Another thing to consider is the Kinsey scale. Under that theory all men are to some degree bisexual. Someone like me who doesn't have an ounce of heterosexual desire in my body may find that theory doesn't fit so well, but it is a scale, from totally gay to totally straight. Obviously there are a lot of potential bisexuals. Society often pressures us to make a firm choice, and most who do, will just stay in their camp and self identify that way for life.

Gay men often despise lady boys.  Why?

[Jingthing]

mark45y, on 2010-08-12 12:54:58, said:

Gay men often despise lady boys.  Why?

Who could I answer that? Ask 100 gay men, get 100 answers. I don't despise them. I don't love them either and I can't relate to them at all. However, I support their civil rights. One thing I personally resent in Thailand is how they have basically taken over the gay bar entertainment industry. It is so BORING. It's like they are filling a need that isn't actually a need, like its a LB entitlement to make a living dressed like a clown in front of gay men. Once you've seen one ladyboy cabaret you've seen them all! If we wanted a "show" we would go to Broadway, not Pattaya. (End of rant.)

Edited by Jingthing, 2010-08-12 13:04:03.

[mark45y]

Jingthing, on 2010-08-12 12:51:37, said:

mark45y, on 2010-08-12 12:50:03, said:

Jingthing, on 2010-08-12 12:26:56, said:

meelousee, on 2010-08-12 06:37:34, said:

Very interesting poll results

As I predicted. Anyone who takes the time to do some basic research on this will see that the vast majority of men who like LBs do not identify as gay and the vast majority of men who identify as gay men have no sexual interest in females, real or LB.

So you are saying that sexual orientation depends on what you think you are as opposed to what you do?  

The examples are to many to list but that is a flawed statement.

Sexual researchers say that. Why does this bother you so much? That's kind of weird.

Because you believe it.  It is a nice airy fairy world where everyone is who they think they are.  Some guys are superman and some ladies are Tinkerbell and I’m Peter Pan.  

Of course it is not true but you actually believe it is true.  

People are not taking responsibility for their actions.  I believe you don’t have a hetero bone in your body.  I can deal with that.  It is honest.  You don’t like to bed women.  You are honest in your sexuality.  Some men on some days feel like a dick and some days they don’t.  They are not heterosexual that is not honesty.  If they tell people they are hetero they are lying or delusional.

[Jingthing]

We have a difference of opinion and philosophy. You are fixated on the genitals and sex acts. Sex researchers are focused on the brain and the feelings the human beings have. I will favor the expert researchers over you. Nothing more to discuss.

[mark45y]

Jingthing, on 2010-08-12 13:01:07, said:

mark45y, on 2010-08-12 12:54:58, said:

Gay men often despise lady boys.  Why?

Who could I answer that? Ask 100 gay men, get 100 answers. I don't despise them. I don't love them either and I can't relate to them at all. However, I support their civil rights. One thing I personally resent in Thailand is how they have basically taken over the gay bar entertainment industry. It is so BORING. It's like they are filling a need that isn't actually a need, like its a LB entitlement to make a living dressed like a clown in front of gay men. Once you've seen one ladyboy cabaret you've seen them all! If we wanted a "show" we would go to Broadway, not Pattaya. (End of rant.)

Well my GF agrees with you.  The last time I took her on a pub crawl in Pattaya she waxed poetic about the sorry state of men for hire in sin city.  She likes masculine men and very upset at all the feminine male dancers at every club we went to.  She also said the toilets at the LB clubs were all dirty.  

However I would have thought the gay dislike for lady boy lovers has something to do with the discrimination against bi sexual people and the derogatory terms like breeders and so on.  

I am not an expert but I think bi sexual men like gay men but I don’t think the reverse can be said.  Tolerate perhaps but not like.

[mark45y]

Jingthing, on 2010-08-12 13:08:17, said:

We have a difference of opinion and philosophy. You are fixated on the genitals and sex acts. Sex researchers are focused on the brain and the feelings the human beings have. I will favor the expert researchers over you. Nothing more to discuss.

You are correct.   And I think I agree with you that no further discussion is warranted but just to clarify.  Would you say that you tend to focus on the brain and how people feel and I tend to focus on physical evidence and how people act?

[Jingthing]

mark45y, on 2010-08-12 13:36:14, said:

Jingthing, on 2010-08-12 13:08:17, said:

We have a difference of opinion and philosophy. You are fixated on the genitals and sex acts. Sex researchers are focused on the brain and the feelings the human beings have. I will favor the expert researchers over you. Nothing more to discuss.

You are correct.   And I think I agree with you that no further discussion is warranted but just to clarify.  Would you say that you tend to focus on the brain and how people feel and I tend to focus on physical evidence and how people act?

Not exactly. Sexual orientation is a very complex human phenomena. There are also strong cultural factors and it also makes a difference what century you happen to live in, the way that people look at sexuality has changed over time. You seem to be implying I am widening this to other areas. Nope. For example, if a man kills another, he is a murderer, even though he may be deluded to think he has not murdered anyone.

Sexuality in my view is not like that. If a man sleeps with a LB, what makes the difference is what he feels about it, is this sexual object a female or a male persona to him. If he feels the LB is a female persona (and most LBs feel that about themselves) that can be seen as a heterosexual relationship psychologically.

Another way to look at this is the masturbation test. Sometimes young people are questioning about their orientation. The easy way to help them is to ask, when you masturbate which sex do you fantasize about? Always women, you're straight, always men, you're gay, a mix, you're bisexual. Based on my readings the majority of LB fanciers would answer women to that question.

Edited by Jingthing, 2010-08-12 13:53:32.

[mark45y]

Jingthing, on 2010-08-12 13:50:54, said:

mark45y, on 2010-08-12 13:36:14, said:

Jingthing, on 2010-08-12 13:08:17, said:

We have a difference of opinion and philosophy. You are fixated on the genitals and sex acts. Sex researchers are focused on the brain and the feelings the human beings have. I will favor the expert researchers over you. Nothing more to discuss.

You are correct.   And I think I agree with you that no further discussion is warranted but just to clarify.  Would you say that you tend to focus on the brain and how people feel and I tend to focus on physical evidence and how people act?

Not exactly. Sexual orientation is a very complex human phenomena. There are also strong cultural factors and it also makes a difference what century you happen to live in, the way that people look at sexuality has changed over time. You seem to be implying I am widening this to other areas. Nope. For example, if a man kills another, he is a murderer, even though he may be deluded to think he has not murdered anyone.

Sexuality in my view is not like that. If a man sleeps with a LB, what makes the difference is what he feels about it, is this sexual object a female or a male persona to him. If he feels the LB is a female persona (and most LBs feel that about themselves) that can be seen as a heterosexual relationship psychologically.

Another way to look at this is the masturbation test. Sometimes young people are questioning about their orientation. The easy way to help them is to ask, when you masturbate which sex do you fantasize about? Always women, you're straight, always men, you're gay, a mix, you're bisexual. Based on my readings the majority of LB fanciers would answer women to that question.

Guys who like lady boys like lady boy porn.  

Yes I can document this.  

Lady boy porn always has a penis in it.  

I don’t think men who live in Pattaya masturbate.  At least not alone.  Why would you?  I think you live in Pattaya, not to get personal but when was the last time you masturbated?  See, I’m right almost never.  

I have lived in Thailand for 6 years and I can count the times I have masturbated on one hand.  

How is your gaydar?  Does it work in Thailand?  If so does it pick up guys who like lady boys?  

If it does we should go out together.  I’ll take my GF and you take your BF.  Dinner at one of the French restaurants around Tutcom and on to Stringfellows or Pooks.

[Loz]

For the record, I favour the side of qualified research along with JT.

Marky,

Here is a rather large flaw in your argument. Look at the Law*. The law is divided in criminal cases by the mens rea and the actus reas.

In lay terms this is a distinction between the act, (physical actions) and the intent (Mental state at the time). Now would you care to explain why the law can say murder is not murder when someone kills someone? and murder is murder when someone else kills someone else. Its all down to the INTENT. The mental component.

I don't pretend for a minute that I am well read enough to explain this to you in terms YOU will accept. But I will say this, the preponderance of evidence is mightily weighted against your assertion in this matter.

But of course laws and philosophies change so who is to say you are not simply ahead of the curve on this?





*Law according to England and Wales as I have not formally studied any other legal systems. Our laws however have been used to form the basis of many other legal systems of other nations, as doubtless you would be aware.

[kpmsprtd]

@ Mark:

Quote

How is your gaydar?  Does it work in Thailand?  If so does it pick up guys who like lady boys?  

I think the point--and this is being proven out in the survey results--is that being gay has nothing to do with being attracted to ladyboys. It seems to be primarily the domain of straight guys (or at least guys who consider themselves as straight). What would be needed in this case is something other than gaydar. I've been thinking of what to call it. How about: laydbar (ladyboy radar)? And whose laydbar would be best? Gay guys? Straight guys? Or guys who dabble in ladyboys themselves? Let the competition begin...

[mark45y]

Loz, on 2010-08-12 14:41:39, said:

For the record, I favour the side of qualified research along with JT.

Marky,

Here is a rather large flaw in your argument. Look at the Law*. The law is divided in criminal cases by the mens rea and the actus reas.

In lay terms this is a distinction between the act, (physical actions) and the intent (Mental state at the time). Now would you care to explain why the law can say murder is not murder when someone kills someone? and murder is murder when someone else kills someone else. Its all down to the INTENT. The mental component.

I don't pretend for a minute that I am well read enough to explain this to you in terms YOU will accept. But I will say this, the preponderance of evidence is mightily weighted against your assertion in this matter.

But of course laws and philosophies change so who is to say you are not simply ahead of the curve on this?





*Law according to England and Wales as I have not formally studied any other legal systems. Our laws however have been used to form the basis of many other legal systems of other nations, as doubtless you would be aware.

I didn’t know we were looking at the law.  I thought we were looking at long term cultural conditioning and relatively new cultural conditioning.  

Being gay was a taboo until recently and even considered abnormal by the American Psychiatric Association.  

My evidence concerns men who have sex with other men.  You say that does not make them gay.  It depends on the clothes the other person is wearing.  

Gay guys now considered normal think that having sex with men wearing women’s clothes is not gay.  

How many pixies can dance on the head of a pin?  

It all depends on how you feel about it.
  
Ya right.

[mark45y]

kpmsprtd, on 2010-08-12 14:44:20, said:

@ Mark:

Quote

How is your gaydar?  Does it work in Thailand?  If so does it pick up guys who like lady boys?  

I think the point--and this is being proven out in the survey results--is that being gay has nothing to do with being attracted to ladyboys. It seems to be primarily the domain of straight guys (or at least guys who consider themselves as straight). What would be needed in this case is something other than gaydar. I've been thinking of what to call it. How about: laydbar (ladyboy radar)? And whose laydbar would be best? Gay guys? Straight guys? Or guys who dabble in ladyboys themselves? Let the competition begin...

How many construction workers are actually wearing pink panties under their jeans?  

Now that would be fun to test.