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[WitawatWatawit]

You can analyse everything you like about what's wrong with this society, but you'll always end up tying yourself up in knots. Though it's not peculiar to this particular society, if you want to probe the psychology behind the problems that have cause such violence as discussed in this forum, then start with the concept of what I call the "perverse adoration of the Thai male". Move on from there and see where you go with your research.

Wit

[luangtom]

oldgent, on 2010-09-01 20:56:19, said:

very sad for the family. remove the guns and other deadly weapons.

Yes, it is sad for the family. But, to make a blanket statement of removing all of the guns and weapons is a cop-out. Instill a sense of self-worth, respect for others and discipline and the guns and the weapons will be a moot point. Parents all over the world rely upon TV, the media, the schools and others to raise their children. If children are raised in an environment that values life and respects others, it will be instilled with the children and they will carry it to adult-hood. Gangs, drugs, rivalries all existed in the towns where our children were raised and they did not fall prey to their influences. They had a strong home-life and that is what gets one through the tough times, not removing perceived threats that are inanimate objects. hel_l, one can kill with a pointed stick, a rope or anything else that one can think of. Instill respect and compassion and it will make these types of incidents more rare.

[Considered Opinion]

Scott, on 2010-09-01 21:16:01, said:

Was this high school students or vocational school students?  Anybody know what schools?

Perhaps reading the whole thread?

[charmonman]

I witnessed a fight between rival school gangs back in the early nineties, but they were armed only with sticks, nobody really got hurt, and it was over as soon as it began. When did guns start to become available to these gangs?

[OzMick]

IMHO the solution is to immediately and permanently expel any student who feels it necessary to fight for the honor of his/her school.

[OzMick]

sorry, double post

Edited by OzMick, 2010-09-02 06:48:03.

[tka]

you are an absolute wanke_r mate in thinking that only violence or physical punishment will change peoples behavior.Most parents woud agree that at times a smack may jolt a child but history has told us that violence begets violence.I reckon you were a beaten child and it has affected your outlook.Lighten up, these kids are out of control and of course action needs to be taken, instead of beating up the kids teach them how to cooperate and understand each others differences.This will bring a far better result in the end than a beating.

[naiharn]

ThaiRich, on 2010-09-01 20:25:01, said:

zthyadat, on 2010-09-01 20:18:54, said:

ThaiRich, on 2010-09-01 20:04:50, said:

Probably not the same students.  BUT, yesterday everyone was whining and crying with shouts of "hang em high" at the teacher that was caning some high school boys.  Perhaps if there was more of that caning going on there would be less of this killing going on.  This is not the first young child to be killed by high school boys.

You reckon more beatings is the solution?  How about parents that actually pay attention to their kids?

You see none of us got to see the film clip as to what those boys did to have their teacher get to the point that would make him think he needed to cane them.  Perhaps they were fighting and he knew it had the potential to escalate.  Not sure just guessing.  But any child that would shoot bullets at a school bus has probably never been disciplined.    "Parents paying more attention to their kids".  I'm guessing you haven't been in Thailand very long.

If you had read any of the articles associated with the caning story you would know that the reason the boys got bludgeoned was that they did not keep their dormitory clean.

"Perhaps they were fighting" ? NO!

"Not sure just guessing" Precisely!

Perhaps in future take 5 minutes to do some basic reading before posting your ignorant opinions.

[Mitker]

brahmburgers, on 2010-09-01 20:55:26, said:

I think crappy videos are a factor.  Granted, there's no one 'silver bullet' that will make boys mature, but being fed on a steady diet of violent videos from the age they could sit up by themselves, sure doesn't do any good for a kid's psyche.   Slightly less polluting for the mind, are videos which have any number of other awful messages.

Another related factor (pun intended) is the influence of elders. Whether it be top politicians or businesspeople (like Thaksin, Newin) or their parents, or other elders, ...one key messages is:  Lying is ok if it makes you richer and more popular. Most other messages from elders are fraught with hypocrisy.  For example, "don't do drugs" ...when nearly every adult they see drinks like a drunken fish.

Totally agree.

[KhaoNiaw]

charmonman, on 2010-09-02 05:59:20, said:

I witnessed a fight between rival school gangs back in the early nineties, but they were armed only with sticks, nobody really got hurt, and it was over as soon as it began. When did guns start to become available to these gangs?

They've always used guns. And often make them themselves in the school workshops.

[beammeup]

Perhaps sports competition is the answer. Rugby, football or American football would neutralize those raging hormones and vent the built up energy.

[hhiser]

hardy1943, on 2010-09-01 20:41:39, said:

KeyserSoze01, on 2010-09-01 20:24:53, said:

eljeque, on 2010-09-01 20:18:36, said:

In some poorer countries, if the children do something wrong, the parents are held accountable.  There is some merit to those ideas.

How about in most civilized countries in the world.

Parents are responsible for the actions of their children until the come of legal age.

Not sure where you came up with poorer countries, but you are way off the mark.


The more time I spend in Thailand, the more the rose-colored glasses come off, revealing the ugly underbelly of a failed state.

Yes look at Thai TV! Do not ever show any type of smoking  or a drink   but punch your wife teeth out "MAI BPEN RAI"

Actually, if you watch their soap operas. If you do punch her teeth out she will fall in Love with you. Also if you are shoot or get into a serious accident you will miraculously gain full health in only a few episodes.  Furthermore I have seen how some(?) Thai's raise their children. If their child does something wrong they will try to distract their child, but will not discipline their child nor instruct it about what they did wrong. Thus we have a country full of ignorant children who think it is ok to walk in front of moving cars, because they are sure the cars can stop for them!

[tutone]

Sounds like my home country.  The good ole U.S.A.

[crusty]

brahmburgers, on 2010-09-01 20:55:26, said:

It's a tough issue.  Boys of that age have a lot of hormones going on.  The only gang type activity that I was involved with was when me and my buddies were 7 yrs old - maybe we get the ya yas out earlier in the States.  One of my gang (of that time long ago) went on to be a US Senator, another became head of a Wall St. Investment group - go figure.

I think crappy videos are a factor.  Granted, there's no one 'silver bullet' that will make boys mature, but being fed on a steady diet of violent videos from the age they could sit up by themselves, sure doesn't do any good for a kid's psyche.   Slightly less polluting for the mind, are videos which have any number of other awful messages.  Go in to any video store, and see what the most showcased selections are.  Are there any true science or nature items (like Nat'l Geo or Animal Planet)?.  Absolutely none.  Are there any which teach redeeming character traits such as tolerance, wisdom, fairness, environmental husbandry, etc?  Zip, Zero.

Another related factor (pun intended) is the influence of elders. Whether it be top politicians or businesspeople (like Thaksin, Newin) or their parents, or other elders, ...one key messages is:  Lying is ok if it makes you richer and more popular. Most other messages from elders are fraught with hypocrisy.  For example, "don't do drugs" ...when nearly every adult they see drinks like a drunken fish.

Purely the Government to blame, by not funding sports activities. 15 years ago Singapore went on a massive spending program on youth sports programs. with free lessons in everything from tennis and sailing to the arts and they don't have this problem as they actually have some educated M.P.'s unlike the morons Thailand throws up !

[GeorgeO]

Longtooth, on 2010-09-01 20:42:25, said:

My perception of this phenomenon is they are "wanna be" gangsters.  They see American gangsters in the movies and think it is cool.  They try to flash gang-sign that they do not fully understand.  They walk the gangster swagger, etc.
I've only seen it a few times in Thailand...in clumps.  If no other youngster is around to appreciate it or fear it, what they do is meaningless.  It's like a game of , "Let's all pretend we're gangsters!  It'll be cool!"  The culture and the way of thinking here does not support the mentality.  There was a gang of  "kids" around ChiangMai about 5 or 6 years ago that went around on motorcycles killing people with Samurai style swords.  I believe the police basically "exterminated" them,  which is surely what should have been done in America when gangs first sprouted up there.   Mexico is no longer run by the government, the drug gangs have the government and the law abiding population on the run, with lots of gangsters, guns, and the blackest of black hearts.  Let's hope that here, unlike the west, the police will have the wherewithal and "patriotism" (if you will) to nip this phenomenon in the bud.  The "powers that were", in the west, were forced to stand back and watch while their country went down the tubes, because of certain interpretations of laws and social correctness.  Here I believe the police have more latitude, by tradition and law.  The current "state of emergency" in Bangkok, giving the police even more latitude, is an excellent opportunity to "Nip this in the bud, or Rue the Day!"

Longtooth,

This is a most incisive and accurate response, which gets right to the heart of the problem; unfortunately, however, you place some reliance on the police to deal with the problem, but with their level of ineptitude and 'couldn't care less' attitude, they are clearly not going to be the ones to solve it.

The state needs to make parents responsible for the actions of their children; that will have an immediate effect on what they are allowed to do, and what they will do.

[Richb2004v2]

The schools, parents and police can't be bothered to prevent their young children riding four to a scooter towards the flow of traffic and getting killed daily, so I doubt they can figure out what to do to prevent them shooting each other. 'Mai pen rai' it will be.

[AlanL1275]

Get rid of all uniforms and it will be more difficult for gangs, and hot heads, to recognize each others schools, and rivals.

Edited by AlanL1275, 2010-09-02 09:27:05.

[MILT]

Loz, on 2010-09-01 21:27:29, said:

ThaiRich, on 2010-09-01 20:04:50, said:

Probably not the same students.  BUT, yesterday everyone was whining and crying with shouts of "hang em high" at the teacher that was caning some high school boys.  Perhaps if there was more of that caning going on there would be less of this killing going on.  This is not the first young child to be killed by high school boys.

Ever heard the maxim: Violence breeds Violence?

People, Caning is just one example of resorting to violence (no matter what the intention or reasoning) to solve our problems. Violence has no place in a learning environment. I am deeply sorry for the loss of a young life because more than likely some if not all members of this gang were caned in school in front of the class. There are scores of methods and practices to teach respect and to solve our problems in a way that is up lifting and beneficial to society and humanity in whole.

[rafish]

acht72, on 2010-09-01 20:19:00, said:

I warned yesterday of not caning in schools, how on earth are kids supposed to learn disciplin if there is no detterent.

Perhaps by setting a good example yourself!

[hungryhippo]

ThaiRich, on 2010-09-01 20:04:50, said:

Perhaps if there was more of that caning going on there would be less of this killing going on.  This is not the first young child to be killed by high school boys.

That's the dumbest thing i've ever read. Going along with your reasoning perhaps if you oldies weren't canned as kids you would be running around thailand molesting children.

[dighambara]

eljeque, on 2010-09-01 20:18:36, said:

Teachers do not whip students over fighting with rival schools.  I really do not think that this is the answer.

In some poorer countries, if the children do something wrong, the parents are held accountable.  There is some merit to those ideas.

This is also a police and school administration problem.  School administrators of "rival" schools need to get together in front of the students of both schools and show them that there is no animosity between the administrators, nor the schools so there should also be no fighting between the students.

  I believe the point was that firm control of youngsters at an early age leads to self control as the grow older.

  It is not poorer countries that hold parents accountable, it is stupid governments.  The very idea that one person should be punished for what someone else did is completely stupid.

  One of the major astonishments (for westerners)within Thai society is the apparent complete lack of manners in the children.  In public, children are quite rude, running rampant yelling and screaming and never do you see anyone say or do anything.

  My children knew that any misbehavior received, first, a calm warning, later, a stern warning, lastly, a swat, or swats - directly related to the intensity of their misbehavior - public or not.

  As a result, my young children are well mannered and my adult son is quite successful...

[rafish]

GeorgeO, on 2010-09-02 09:01:57, said:

Longtooth, on 2010-09-01 20:42:25, said:

My perception of this phenomenon is they are "wanna be" gangsters.  They see American gangsters in the movies and think it is cool.  They try to flash gang-sign that they do not fully understand.  They walk the gangster swagger, etc.
I've only seen it a few times in Thailand...in clumps.  If no other youngster is around to appreciate it or fear it, what they do is meaningless.  It's like a game of , "Let's all pretend we're gangsters!  It'll be cool!"  The culture and the way of thinking here does not support the mentality.  There was a gang of  "kids" around ChiangMai about 5 or 6 years ago that went around on motorcycles killing people with Samurai style swords.  I believe the police basically "exterminated" them,  which is surely what should have been done in America when gangs first sprouted up there.   Mexico is no longer run by the government, the drug gangs have the government and the law abiding population on the run, with lots of gangsters, guns, and the blackest of black hearts.  Let's hope that here, unlike the west, the police will have the wherewithal and "patriotism" (if you will) to nip this phenomenon in the bud.  The "powers that were", in the west, were forced to stand back and watch while their country went down the tubes, because of certain interpretations of laws and social correctness.  Here I believe the police have more latitude, by tradition and law.  The current "state of emergency" in Bangkok, giving the police even more latitude, is an excellent opportunity to "Nip this in the bud, or Rue the Day!"

Longtooth,

This is a most incisive and accurate response, which gets right to the heart of the problem; unfortunately, however, you place some reliance on the police to deal with the problem, but with their level of ineptitude and 'couldn't care less' attitude, they are clearly not going to be the ones to solve it.

The state needs to make parents responsible for the actions of their children; that will have an immediate effect on what they are allowed to do, and what they will do.

"the state needs to make parents responsible..." Yea like government laws can enforce good safe environments for children to grow up in.  You must subscribe to the POUS Obama's form of socialist rule?  government responsible for every aspect of your life.  Education is the answer, not canning or gangs.

[rafish]

dighambara, on 2010-09-02 09:46:17, said:

eljeque, on 2010-09-01 20:18:36, said:

Teachers do not whip students over fighting with rival schools.  I really do not think that this is the answer.

In some poorer countries, if the children do something wrong, the parents are held accountable.  There is some merit to those ideas.

This is also a police and school administration problem.  School administrators of "rival" schools need to get together in front of the students of both schools and show them that there is no animosity between the administrators, nor the schools so there should also be no fighting between the students.

  I believe the point was that firm control of youngsters at an early age leads to self control as the grow older.

  It is not poorer countries that hold parents accountable, it is stupid governments.  The very idea that one person should be punished for what someone else did is completely stupid.

  One of the major astonishments (for westerners)within Thai society is the apparent complete lack of manners in the children.  In public, children are quite rude, running rampant yelling and screaming and never do you see anyone say or do anything.

  My children knew that any misbehavior received, first, a calm warning, later, a stern warning, lastly, a swat, or swats - directly related to the intensity of their misbehavior - public or not.

  As a result, my young children are well mannered and my adult son is quite successful...

Must make you feel very "manly," swatting as you say, "children?"

[newermonkey]

ThaiRich, on 2010-09-01 20:04:50, said:

Probably not the same students.  BUT, yesterday everyone was whining and crying with shouts of "hang em high" at the teacher that was caning some high school boys.  Perhaps if there was more of that caning going on there would be less of this killing going on.  This is not the first young child to be killed by high school boys.

I total agree with "ThaiRich" .

The mother was quoted as saying : "My son will not be the last victim to die in similar circumstances.  There is no benefit from fighting each other. I want them to stop  fighting," Ungsu Khamwong, the boy's mother, said on Thailand's PBS  television channel.

I feel so sorry for the boys family, this must be devastating.

The mother said "I want them to stop fighting" but unfortunately its gone way past asking them to stop, This will only encourage the gangs! Also even if they arrest most of the culprits the parents will have the opportunity to pay for their release.

My view is these "gangs" should be made an example of by the police, I think the police should detain all the suspects and some colabouratore and supporters, extract the information and send the guilty ones down for a very long time, This should also be made into a media circus.

Caning should be brought back and applied under supervision of the authorities as it is in Singapore (I am not advocating rouge manic teachers taking the law into their own hands) , you might be horrified but it will save innocent lives.

BTW Gangs in Pattaya are free to do whatever they like and the situation is totally out of control and in part protected by drug dealers, real gangsters and unfortunately the money generated is greedily  welcomed by our friends in brown.

Edited by newermonkey, 2010-09-02 09:55:53.

[Cynical]

About ten years ago there was a a lot of inter-techno college aggression. When everything had subsided, the investigation concluded that the teachers had encouraged the students to act violently towards students of other colleges.

Caning wasn't the answer then, at a time when most teachers caned students.

It's the society we live in as as the poor mother said (let us pray her and her family) ... it won't be the last time.