I took these picture last week at the Hongzhou transport hub. For those that are interested.
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Bangkok-Nong Khai High-Speed Train Project To Be Completed Late 2015
Started by webfact, 2010-11-27 12:57
#51
bangkokrick
Remember this member Posted 2010-11-28 20:06:37
Hi Guys,
I took these picture last week at the Hongzhou transport hub. For those that are interested.
DSC05977.JPG 142.53K
11 downloads
DSC05978.JPG 145.07K
6 downloads
DSC05979.JPG 138.9K
6 downloadsCheers, Rick #52
bangkokrick
Remember this member Posted 2010-11-28 21:37:31
Forgot to mention. The Hongzhou transport hub is a great idea. Al forms of transport are in one places making it very easy to get anywhere in China. This is located at the Shanghai domestic airport and from landing there you can get the high speed train, normal train, underground, long and short distance buses and taxis. Now wouldn't it be great if they did something similar at Suwanabhumi. You could go anywhere in Thailand from one place, using any kind of transport. It's food for thought.
Cheers, Rick #53
LaoPo
Rare Species Member Eating Tough Leaves Posted 2010-11-29 04:57:52
IMO that high speed railtrack is going to be built but don't ask me when; that's up to the Thai authorities....  LaoPo Ok LaoPo It does not really matter what they can do in China. The question is what can be done in Thailand. Real LIfe. That's what I said  It doesn't matter where I am or where I go. I came to Thailand more than 30 years for the first time and the same for China and coming and going ever since. I did my steps here and there, including in Canada and the US where I also built my companies. I have been around a bit LaoPo #54
LaoPo
Rare Species Member Eating Tough Leaves Posted 2010-11-29 05:00:25
Forgot to mention. The Hongzhou transport hub is a great idea. Al forms of transport are in one places making it very easy to get anywhere in China. This is located at the Shanghai domestic airport and from landing there you can get the high speed train, normal train, underground, long and short distance buses and taxis. Now wouldn't it be great if they did something similar at Suwanabhumi. You could go anywhere in Thailand from one place, using any kind of transport. It's food for thought. Cheers, Rick I agree, but the difference is that these kind of important infrastructures can't be done in Thailand with the same speed as in China....for various reasons. PS: do you mean the Hangzhou high speed hub to Shanghai vv ? LaoPo Edited by LaoPo, 2010-11-29 05:04:03. #55
LaoPo
Rare Species Member Eating Tough Leaves Posted 2010-11-29 05:52:48
They are great at stealing patents and trade secrets as well. They stole all the bullet train info from the Germans and Japanese.  ..I'm sure you have top-secret information proving so?But maybe you've never heard of a few mega companies in the train industry in China, like: China Railway Group Ltd - 273.000 employees - a Hong Kong listed company with a market value of HK$ 115 Billion ? or China Railway Construction Ltd - 210.000 employees - a HK listed company with a market value of HK$ 117 Billion ? How many km/miles of high speed rail tracks are there in Japan...Germany, France, the US, Spain ? Search and you wll find. I don't blame the ignorant if it comes to info about China other than the media around the world, feeding the same ignorant readers/watchers with a lot of crap; that mis-information is mainly because of fear and non-understanding of the Chinese mind and extremele hard working population. The media just focus of what's wrong in China (and that's a lot) but the poor journalists, sent or not to China by their bosses only report what the west want to "eat...to swallow"....think of that! At the same time China is developing with the speed of ultra sound and I blame the leaders of the west that they still think of the west as being superior to Asia. That..........that is a big mistake! Tonight I watched an amazing documentary* about healthcare in India (and heart surgery in particular) and I was completely flabbergasted how FAR they are in comparison to the west. In the west a high qualified Heart-Surgeon does at his maximum a number of 3.000 (!) heart surgeries in his active Surgeon lifetime. In this particular hospital in India a Surgeon in his 30's has done that number of 3.000already. This particular Chief Surgeon did already more than 25.000 heart surgeries and I don't know his age but I estimate him at around 45 to 50. The rich in India pay around US$ 2.500 for a heart surgery..in the US that's close to $ 100.000. In the US, special clinics for heart surgery do around 200 heart surgeries per year; in this clinic in India they do 600 to 700 PER MONTH.. In India they deliver 30.000 doctors per year which will increase to 100.000 doctors per year; Karnataka state in India trains more nurses per year than in the entire US; * if you're interested, watch this (in English) and scroll to min: 25:33 and further at 31:30; completely unbelievable..but true!! http://beta.uitzendi...enzeloze-leider I only posted this (off topic) to show there's more to Asia than the info many are fed with LaoPo #56
LaoPo
Rare Species Member Eating Tough Leaves Posted 2010-11-29 06:04:54
The plan right now is for three major lines: one that connects Beijing to London via the Channel Tunnel (or Chunnel) and continues on to Singapore; a second line that covers Malaysia, Burma, Vietnam, and Thailand; and a third that would bridge China, Russia and Germany to other European railways. And, just when you thought it wouldn't get crazier: China wants to get this done in the next 10 years. http://dvice.com/arc...a-plans-mas.php LaoPo This really is a laugh a line stuff. Negotiations with the European Governments who will be involved were mooted in March of this year. I have not seen anything in the UK papers or on BBC about progressing this idea. Given the economic downturn I would not expect much at all to happen for a year or five. I just love the thought that there will be a direct line to London from Beijing which then continues on to Singapore. Has anybody thought of providing the Chinese with an atlas? Then just for laughs the Chinese will build a railway passing through Thailand and Malaysia but not going on to Singapore. Am I to suppose that if I am in Beijing and want to go to Singapore I have to go via St. Pancras? The jackpot is hit with the third scheme to drive a railroad through Russia (the alternative was through India!!!) to connect with the European rail system which does not apparently include the UK. I'm already thinking that someone is crazy but getting all this done in 10 years? Insanity. When you're finished laughing you might want to think that 5 or 10 years is a small grain of sand in Asian history. Asians and Chinese think in generations and future and not alike the western impatient human beings in NOW... Even if a train link from Beiing to London would do only 150km/hr the job would be done in some 3 days. Can anyone imagine the time and money, saved for goods, shipped to Europe (and even onwards to the US by ship) ? It would save 4 weeks of container-freight trips to Europe and 2-3 weeks saving time to the East Coast of the US if loaded from London or Rotterdam. Watch and see it happen. The Chinese think far more ahead the future than most western minds Only negative minds will never accomplish great success of their own. LaoPo #57
LaoPo
Rare Species Member Eating Tough Leaves Posted 2010-11-29 06:19:49
China good at everything? You ask any mainland chinese about their products and they would tell you it's crap. They try not to take their own airline, because it's unsafe, i would rather drive instead of taking this high speed train... @ LaoPo Since you have worked with chinese companies on a daily basis, you would know what they do to make money. SUch as adding melamine to animal food and baby milk so that it would show a high content of protein. How is china more technologically more advance than Germany, France and Japan? They got help from Siemens, Bombardier and other countries to help develop the rails and rolling stock. ..another ignorant poster. So..what do Chinese buy than in your opinion...1.335.000.000 people if they think everything is crap ? Ever been in China?They try not to take their own airlines because they're unsafe ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.ever been on any Chinese airport ? Do you know how many US and EU planes they bought and all these planes are unsafe ? Don't make me laugh anymore will you please; my belly hurts But, I agree, I'm saddened and angry also to people and companies who are corrupt or do dispicable things with their products and food. IMO ? put them in jail for the rest of their lives since that's the only thing they're scared of and the government DOES put them in jail, if not worse. I didn't say that China is more technologically advanced than Germany France, the US or any other country. I didn't claim so nor said so. You guys seem to think that EVERYTHING was done and built with help from other western countries but that's far from the truth. Maybe study and read a bit more, also from other sources than your own country's media ? LaoPo #58
bangkokrick
Remember this member Posted 2010-11-29 07:38:24
Forgot to mention. The Hongzhou transport hub is a great idea. Al forms of transport are in one places making it very easy to get anywhere in China. This is located at the Shanghai domestic airport and from landing there you can get the high speed train, normal train, underground, long and short distance buses and taxis. Now wouldn't it be great if they did something similar at Suwanabhumi. You could go anywhere in Thailand from one place, using any kind of transport. It's food for thought. Cheers, Rick I agree, but the difference is that these kind of important infrastructures can't be done in Thailand with the same speed as in China....for various reasons. PS: do you mean the Hangzhou high speed hub to Shanghai vv ? LaoPo Rick #59
cup-O-coffee
Senior Member Posted 2010-11-29 10:00:31
High speed train finished in 2015??? Just in time for...
NOW ENTERING BANGKOK - - - - - - - - - - - - PLEASE SECURE YOUR BUOYANCY CONVERTERS - - - - - - - - - 
Edited by cup-O-coffee, 2010-11-29 10:01:30. #60
007
Senior Member Posted 2010-11-29 10:53:20
I shall eat somtam for breakfast, dinner and tea for the rest of my life IF its running by 2015... Me too! I will even have it for lunch, and with extra pla-rar, IF they can finish it by December 2015. 
#61
Daewoo
Senior Member Posted 2010-11-29 11:00:19
Thought I could weigh into this debate... I have some relevant knoweledge...
I am a communications engineer, working now in sales and marketting... I worked in Malaysia on a section of the Singapore to Shanghai rail, until the project was abandoned because of THE MALAYSIAN GOVERNMENT... I still work actively in the rail sector, and know most of the major players... I work for a Chinese tech company... Daewoo's points... 1) Chinese companies in the field only win projects because a) it is tied to Chinese Bank Funding (must be 70% Chinese Product) or, because the project is in China, and the project is awarded to a Chinese company so they have a reference case to try and win international projects... 2) There are pretty much three parts to any rail tender - Firstly, Rolling Stock (Locomotives and Carriages), second, Civil (land prep and tracks, including stations and halts) and Power if it is electrified, and thirdly, communications and signalling... China can hold it's own with the supply of (dumb) rolling stock, but struggles to sell locomotives internationally... China can definately take the lead on construction, even though all of the materials and labour will be local... China has almost know capability in signalling and train control (internationally)... 3) China's biggest downfall is without doubt NOT the quality of their goods... all of the high quality goods are manufactured in China... it isn't the quality of their R&D, all of the European vendors do their R&D in China... the biggest problem for Chinese vendors is undertanding other markets and their requirements... to an extent, they have a domestic market of 1.3Bn people, who demand cheap crap, and struggle to make the step from that to high quality more expensive products, and western style sales and marketting... Cheers, Daewoo Edited by Daewoo, 2010-11-29 11:14:19. #62
Piengrudee
Senior Member Posted 2010-11-29 11:09:24
2015? It is already year 2553.
#63
LaoPo
Rare Species Member Eating Tough Leaves Posted 2010-11-29 19:13:57
PS: do you mean the Hangzhou high speed hub to Shanghai vv ? LaoPo Rick Hongqiao Station Hub that is  ..never been there though.But, I admit, Chinese names are so difficult for us westerners. LaoPo #64
LaoPo
Rare Species Member Eating Tough Leaves Posted 2010-11-29 19:31:52
Thought I could weigh into this debate... I have some relevant knoweledge... I am a communications engineer, working now in sales and marketting... I worked in Malaysia on a section of the Singapore to Shanghai rail, until the project was abandoned because of THE MALAYSIAN GOVERNMENT... I still work actively in the rail sector, and know most of the major players... I work for a Chinese tech company... Daewoo's points... 1) Chinese companies in the field only win projects because a) it is tied to Chinese Bank Funding (must be 70% Chinese Product) or, because the project is in China, and the project is awarded to a Chinese company so they have a reference case to try and win international projects... 2) There are pretty much three parts to any rail tender - Firstly, Rolling Stock (Locomotives and Carriages), second, Civil (land prep and tracks, including stations and halts) and Power if it is electrified, and thirdly, communications and signalling... China can hold it's own with the supply of (dumb) rolling stock, but struggles to sell locomotives internationally... China can definately take the lead on construction, even though all of the materials and labour will be local... China has almost know capability in signalling and train control (internationally)... 3) China's biggest downfall is without doubt NOT the quality of their goods... all of the high quality goods are manufactured in China... it isn't the quality of their R&D, all of the European vendors do their R&D in China... the biggest problem for Chinese vendors is undertanding other markets and their requirements... to an extent, they have a domestic market of 1.3Bn people, who demand cheap crap, and struggle to make the step from that to high quality more expensive products, and western style sales and marketting... Cheers, Daewoo Good points Daewoo and thanks for your expertise input. One point though on your remark: "...who demand cheap crap"... That's a big problem in China indeed but not just for China but also for oversees buyers; The Buyers force the manufacturers on many occasions to bring the prices down, down and further down, leaving manufacturers no other options than to cut to cheaper basic materials ending up with inferior products. I've been there, seen it when oversees buyers were using the thumb screws, waving with big orders, saying: "take it or leave it" and often it goes very far, from buying cheaper buttons, made of inferior quality to making products smaller (fashion). It's mainly a communication problem since oversees buyers have no clue about prices of local basic materials and where to get them. Chinese buyers are used to cheap products and often don't (want to) see the difference in quality. It takes time (the rich know already) to realize one can better buy a product which is a little more expensive but better quality but you tell that to the Chinese buyers But, if the oversees buyers would tell the manufacturer to produce the BEST product with the best materials, he would love to do so; no problem. "Western styles sales and marketing" good point, but IF they would know already so in many different kinds of business and products they would overflow the world wide markets. NOW, the business is still done, for the major part: China produces, the West decides WHAT they have to make. Not the other way around. But that will change, rapidly; it was the same with Japan, 50 years ago but this China wave will be a lot bigger. Most of the Japanese and Korean manufacturers produce the majority of their products in China. LaoPo #65
tw25rw
Platinum Member Posted 2010-11-29 19:42:34
I'll have to dig for precise info, but I heard that 2 of China's high speed lines have had their speeds limited as the track wasn't laid properly.. Track that was designed to last 60 years has only seen 2-3 years operating as originally designed. China makes good looking stuff on the cheap, but if you want it done with some quality, you'll need to get the Germans in.
#66
bangkokrick
Remember this member Posted 2010-11-29 20:29:59
PS: do you mean the Hangzhou high speed hub to Shanghai vv ? LaoPo Rick Hongqiao Station Hub that is ..never been there though.But, I admit, Chinese names are so difficult for us westerners. LaoPo You are right about the Chinese names. Nightmare! Rick #67
Cnxforever
Senior Member Posted 2010-11-29 20:37:03
The Bangkok Suvarnabhumi rail link began in 1997 and finally opened this year. 5 years to get all the way to Nong Khai? I'll believe when it happens. exactly....in their dreams! I mean you could do it in 5 years - but the result would probably be a roller-coaster ride!! They can not even built a proper road here which is straight and doesn't have to be repaired or resurfaced every 2 years. The train the Thai PM was traveling on in Shanghai and credited the Chinese with during his visit was the German "Transrapid" not Chinese as Abhisit thought. That train is also totally different as it is magnetic - the costs are enormous. The Chinese only "think" they can copy the European high speed trains - they are only 20 years behind in technology and we don't even need to mention the "quality" of Chinese products! Having bought and finally given up on all the cheap Chinese crap over the years - from power drills to bottle openers - which usually last about anything between 1day -6 month - I would surely not travel on a Chinese / Thai made - HIGH SPEED train!! How many derailments have Thai Railways had in the last 5 years?? And those where luckily at ultra low speed! I mean would you fly and take your family on a Chinese / Thai made airplane? Some kind of a Tuk-Tuk with wings assembled with Chinese power tools and cheaply copied components? Sorry to sound negative but there are things - especially technology you trust your life with - where QUALITY comes first! #68
LaoPo
Rare Species Member Eating Tough Leaves Posted 2010-11-29 21:02:03
I'll have to dig for precise info, but I heard that 2 of China's high speed lines have had their speeds limited as the track wasn't laid properly.. Track that was designed to last 60 years has only seen 2-3 years operating as originally designed. China makes good looking stuff on the cheap, but if you want it done with some quality, you'll need to get the Germans in. 1. Yes, please let us have that info 2. Knowing Germany and it's products very well I'm the last to say that German quality isn't good..it IS generally very good. Yet, I had a few bad experiences with BMW cars and a Benz as well (still have one). 3. But to be fair, I could find and dig for problems with the same high speed trains and tracks from other countries also; can't I? I'm also sure that with over 7.000 km of high speed train tracks in China there must have been a few problems; sure. But, how many train accidents can you find in this list with more than 90+ deaths in China ? http://en.wikipedia....s_and_disasters And: The world's worst rail accidents http://www.telegraph...-accidents.html It's all in the eyes aqnd brain of the "believer" how bad something is or can be. but one should be fair and the number of train accidents in China with it's enormous railway systems (now: 86.000 km to be extended to 110.000 in 2012) is relatively low in comparison to other parts of the world; yet, they still occur once in a while.NEXT: In 2 or 3 decades the worldwide high speed train networks will be outdated and slowly but surely replaced by the MAGLEV train system (3 already commercially operating for the public: Japan, China and South Korea) : http://en.wikipedia....9#First_patents LaoPo #69
bangkokrick
Remember this member Posted 2010-11-29 21:06:47
The Bangkok Suvarnabhumi rail link began in 1997 and finally opened this year. 5 years to get all the way to Nong Khai? I'll believe when it happens. exactly....in their dreams! I mean you could do it in 5 years - but the result would probably be a roller-coaster ride!! They can not even built a proper road here which is straight and doesn't have to be repaired or resurfaced every 2 years. The train the Thai PM was traveling on in Shanghai and credited the Chinese with during his visit was the German "Transrapid" not Chinese as Abhisit thought. That train is also totally different as it is magnetic - the costs are enormous. The Chinese only "think" they can copy the European high speed trains - they are only 20 years behind in technology and we don't even need to mention the "quality" of Chinese products! Having bought and finally given up on all the cheap Chinese crap over the years - from power drills to bottle openers - which usually last about anything between 1day -6 month - I would surely not travel on a Chinese / Thai made - HIGH SPEED train!! How many derailments have Thai Railways had in the last 5 years?? And those where luckily at ultra low speed! I mean would you fly and take your family on a Chinese / Thai made airplane? Some kind of a Tuk-Tuk with wings assembled with Chinese power tools and cheaply copied components? Sorry to sound negative but there are things - especially technology you trust your life with - where QUALITY comes first! Rick #70
Cnxforever
Senior Member Posted 2010-11-29 21:15:56
I'll have to dig for precise info, but I heard that 2 of China's high speed lines have had their speeds limited as the track wasn't laid properly.. Track that was designed to last 60 years has only seen 2-3 years operating as originally designed. China makes good looking stuff on the cheap, but if you want it done with some quality, you'll need to get the Germans in. NEXT: In 2 or 3 decades the worldwide high speed train networks will be outdated and slowly but surely replaced by the MAGLEV train system (3 already commercially operating for the public: Japan, China and South Korea) : http://en.wikipedia....9#First_patents LaoPo There is only one problem with the MAGLEV train - it is far to expensive - the cost for the 30.5 km in shanghai are believed to be 1.35 billion US$ - the tickets at 50 RMB for one person is also far to expensive for most Chinese comuters. from wikipedia: quote Transrapid is a German high-speed monorail train using magnetic levitation. Based on a patent from 1934, planning of the Transrapid system started in 1969. The test facility for the system in Emsland, Germany was completed in 1987. In 1991, the technical readiness for application was approved by the Deutsche Bundesbahn in cooperation with renowned universities. Its current application-ready version, the Transrapid 09, has been designed for 500 km/h cruising speed and allows acceleration and deceleration of approx. 1 m/s2. In 2004, the first commercial implementation was completed. The Shanghai Maglev Train connects the rapid transit network 30.5 km (19.0 mi) to the Shanghai Pudong International Airport. The Transrapid system has not yet been deployed on a long-distance intercity line. The system is developed and marketed by Transrapid International, a joint venture of Siemens and ThyssenKrupp. unquote #71
Thai at Heart
Sabai Sabai Member Posted 2010-11-29 23:10:12
Any info on how they intend to create a "parallel" track?
#72
LaoPo
Rare Species Member Eating Tough Leaves Posted 2010-11-30 05:41:35
I'll have to dig for precise info, but I heard that 2 of China's high speed lines have had their speeds limited as the track wasn't laid properly.. Track that was designed to last 60 years has only seen 2-3 years operating as originally designed. China makes good looking stuff on the cheap, but if you want it done with some quality, you'll need to get the Germans in. NEXT: In 2 or 3 decades the worldwide high speed train networks will be outdated and slowly but surely replaced by the MAGLEV train system (3 already commercially operating for the public: Japan, China and South Korea) : http://en.wikipedia....9#First_patents LaoPo There is only one problem with the MAGLEV train - it is far to expensive - ........... Sure, but planes, flying non-stop for 12 hours weren't built overnight as well and were too expensive in the beginning also. If anybody would have told you 100 years ago that people didn't need to write letters anymore, taking 6 months to arrive on the other side of the world because people would have a machine where they could write messages, readable instantly at 20.000 miles away and that people would go on holiday 10.000 miles away and arrive there in 12 hours, they would have put you in a nuthouse During the Inquisition they would have tortured you, broken all your bones, put you on a stake, burned or left to rot in a cage, hanging from the walls of the city. Developments go faster now than anyone here on this forum can possibly think of. Don't tell me you knew, 20 years ago, that Apple computers would been built by the millions in China; 7 million iPads alone this last quarter of 2010 and a staggering 40 (!) million in 2011. Too expensive.....? What's expensive if merchandise can be transported within days rather than 4-6 weeks sitting in a container? The MAGLEV or any other invention will be FAR cheaper than any other transport-system. It's not a quation IF it's expensive but WHEN... LaoPo Edited by LaoPo, 2010-11-30 05:45:56. #73
Daewoo
Senior Member Posted 2010-11-30 11:46:50
Good points Daewoo and thanks for your expertise input. I am enjoying the debate... good on you for playing 'devil's advocate'
One point though on your remark: "...who demand cheap crap"... That's a big problem in China indeed but not just for China but also for oversees buyers; The Buyers force the manufacturers on many occasions to bring the prices down, down and further down, leaving manufacturers no other options than to cut to cheaper basic materials ending up with inferior products. I've been there, seen it when oversees buyers were using the thumb screws, waving with big orders, saying: "take it or leave it" and often it goes very far, from buying cheaper buttons, made of inferior quality to making products smaller (fashion). You might be right in Fast Moving Consumer Goods (FMCG) (and I don't mean fast moving trains)... If people were willing to pay for quality, we would all be using German whtie goods, made in Germany... but WRT the Chinese Market, they didn't grow up with the same view of quality as we did... I grew up with fond memories of a fridge and a TV than lasted 25 years... The Chinese only became consumers 15 years ago... they grew up with disposable items, where low price, and short cycles allowed the consumer to upgrade to a newer, flashier product... My point is, a factory is a factory no matter where it is built... humans only opperate the factory... The Chinese build factories to manufacture to their 1.3bn domestic market (1/6 of the worlds population or something, right?)... unless a foreign company builds the factory, to make products to foreign quality standards, you can't make a quality product in a factory that isn't designed that way... The company I work for has international standard quality control, and a quality standard the equivalent of any European rival...
But that will change, rapidly; it was the same with Japan, 50 years ago but this China wave will be a lot bigger. Most of the Japanese and Korean manufacturers produce the majority of their products in China. Yes, but that was because the Japanese are smart, they were open to 'outsiders' opinions, and saw the value of Quality when shown by the Americans (even when the Americans themselves couldn't)... The Koreans follwed the Japanese after they saw how successful it was... The Chinese are different - they trust no one, and are trusted by no one... Unless you can convince a Chinese 'boss' (and I mean senior VP) that it was their idea, they simply will not even offer an alternative to what all the other bosses think... If we think the Thai education stiffles free thinking, the Chinese could teach the Thais how to stiffle it even further... closer to the topic... I am working on three rail project is Australia at the moment... all of them are Heavy Rail from the mine to the port (to ship more of Australia to China)... they are in remote Australia, so there are no 'human' issues to worry about, like displacing people off their land... there are no existing rail requirements to worry about... There are almost unlimited funds ($US6bn just for the rail project) because the rail project is dwarfed by the cost of building the mines and port facilities, and by the profits the mines will bring... From concept to completion they are 6 year projects... my experience with passenger rail is you should double that because of the enormous focus on safety... to over-build an existing line, probably half as much again, so 15 years from concept to completion is probably right... if the project was first conceived in 2003 (when I was working on part of the Malaysian section) we might have a couple of years work already done, but it is still probably 12 years away... You can't run high speed passenger trains on a freight rail... Typically, high speed rail is elevated on concrete slabs rather than 'typical' sleeper and balast rail for freight/slow passenger rail, because you can not afford any possibilty of cars/trucks being in the rail corridor.. i.e. no 'level crossings' for roads... Cheers, Daewoo #74
Cuchulainn
Senior Member Posted 2010-11-30 12:37:04
2015? It is already year 2553. Quiet in the cheap seats, please!! #75
LaoPo
Rare Species Member Eating Tough Leaves Posted 2010-11-30 21:40:38
You might be right in Fast Moving Consumer Goods (FMCG) (and I don't mean fast moving trains)... If people were willing to pay for quality, we would all be using German whtie goods, made in Germany... but WRT the Chinese Market, they didn't grow up with the same view of quality as we did... I grew up with fond memories of a fridge and a TV than lasted 25 years... The Chinese only became consumers 15 years ago... they grew up with disposable items, where low price, and short cycles allowed the consumer to upgrade to a newer, flashier product... My point is, a factory is a factory no matter where it is built... humans only opperate the factory... The Chinese build factories to manufacture to their 1.3bn domestic market (1/6 of the worlds population or something, right?)... unless a foreign company builds the factory, to make products to foreign quality standards, you can't make a quality product in a factory that isn't designed that way... The company I work for has international standard quality control, and a quality standard the equivalent of any European rival...
But that will change, rapidly; it was the same with Japan, 50 years ago but this China wave will be a lot bigger. Most of the Japanese and Korean manufacturers produce the majority of their products in China. Yes, but that was because the Japanese are smart, they were open to 'outsiders' opinions, and saw the value of Quality when shown by the Americans (even when the Americans themselves couldn't)... The Koreans follwed the Japanese after they saw how successful it was... The Chinese are different - they trust no one, and are trusted by no one... Unless you can convince a Chinese 'boss' (and I mean senior VP) that it was their idea, they simply will not even offer an alternative to what all the other bosses think... If we think the Thai education stiffles free thinking, the Chinese could teach the Thais how to stiffle it even further... closer to the topic... I am working on three rail project is Australia at the moment... all of them are Heavy Rail from the mine to the port (to ship more of Australia to China)... they are in remote Australia, so there are no 'human' issues to worry about, like displacing people off their land... there are no existing rail requirements to worry about... There are almost unlimited funds ($US6bn just for the rail project) because the rail project is dwarfed by the cost of building the mines and port facilities, and by the profits the mines will bring... From concept to completion they are 6 year projects... my experience with passenger rail is you should double that because of the enormous focus on safety... to over-build an existing line, probably half as much again, so 15 years from concept to completion is probably right... if the project was first conceived in 2003 (when I was working on part of the Malaysian section) we might have a couple of years work already done, but it is still probably 12 years away... You can't run high speed passenger trains on a freight rail... Typically, high speed rail is elevated on concrete slabs rather than 'typical' sleeper and balast rail for freight/slow passenger rail, because you can not afford any possibilty of cars/trucks being in the rail corridor.. i.e. no 'level crossings' for roads... Cheers, Daewoo Impressive post! Let me try to answer 1. Of course people (with money) want to buy quality products. People with little money buy products which fit their wallets and can't (yet) buy expensive foreign quality products. The same all over Asia and China is no exception. 2. Factories: yes, also correct. The Chinese built factories for their own population's products only after the opening up in 1989 when private production after Deng Xiapoing was encouraged/approved. The population was so excited about all the new products that they didn't care much for quality but that's changing very very fast since you can't fool the buyers anymore. A big issue is still the lack of quality control in many factories since nobody ever paid attention to it. Nobody ever taught them about quality control but they're learning fast. 3. I don't think the Chinese are different from the Japanese/Koreans when it comes to learning and improving; maybe you worked in a too specialized sector/market where that kind of behavior is still normal but my experience tells me (although they will never admit...!) that they DO listen and learn from Westerners/Japanese and Koreans. They go fast..very fast and I've seen and accompanied many Chinese in Europe who are SO eager to learn and improve. They're not stupid and in your face they might not want to admit that they want to learn and even show superior behavior (especially to their own workers) but at night, when the lamps are out, they will work bloody hard to improve their factory and ideas + products! 4. Rail construction: you have a lot of experience and your explanation about the construction in Australia is interesting and impressive. What I miss is the lenght in Km of the construction, to be done in 6 years...is that 500 km or 2.000 km; from mining to port ? How many people are REALLY involved, building those train tracks in 24/7? Are there 5.000 people or 100.000 people working on these 6 years' train tracks ? It makes a difference. 5. I understand that there is a large difference between passenger- and freight rail but for freight rail (containers) an average of 120 to 150 km on completely new tracks should be possible....right? If so, transport time from Eastern and Northern China all the way to Singapore (and via another track via Burma which is also under planning to Yangon/Rangoon) would save at least 1-2 weeks transportation time. Not to forget the future freight train tracks from Asia to Europe. LaoPo |
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