Posted 2011-09-22 17:44:16
 maccastime, on 2011-09-22 15:07:55, said:
farang000999, on 2011-09-11 10:36:18, said:
my inground pool is leaking. my plan is to just wait and see where the water stops at. however, if the leak is at the bottom (a crack i have not found) is there a risk of the pool popping out of the ground? would i have to drill relief holes? how low can the pool drain before it could pop out of the ground?
If you have a fibregalss pool be very careful here,you will have to brace it on all sides with timber,if you dont,as the water gets down fairly low,it will pop out of the ground i have seen this happen.Another question does the pool have a pool light? as they are a problem in a lot of pools especially fibreglass,they tend to suffer from leaks.
First off it's not a fiber glass pool. Secondly it will not pop out as already stated as water seeks it's own level and it is leaking from higher pressure to lower. You have never seen a pool pop out from a leak there was some other reasoning or factors involved behind it. Have you ever seen a sunken or even partially sunken boat suddenly rise to the surface before without removing the water from inside? Well that's what any pool is, even a fiber glass pool which is even more representative of that example once it fills it either sinks if that was possible or only empties to the point of the leak unless the leak is at the very bottom and it continues to sink which can't happen installed in the ground but the pressure inside and out is equalized so no way it's going to come up, that's a myth..
Posted 2011-09-24 14:09:02
thanks for the long reply. i am quite busy and not yet ready to jump into this yet but definitely appreciate the detailed response.
Posted 2011-09-24 15:16:27
Big Gary, on 2011-01-17 07:33:15, said:
Thank you everyone for your suggestions and I am sorry it turned out to be a slinging match between a couple of guys.
Big Gary
But not surprised. Actually it's becoming expected !
Posted 2011-10-04 02:10:10
The skimmer was dry. The pool stopped leaking when it got almost below two of the return lines on the same side of the pool. Then it rained a bit. The pool then filled up about an inch higher and the skimmer line also refilled. Now the water level in the pool appears to have still stopped leaking even though the water is back above the return lines as shown in the attached photos.
If it were the return lines, shouldn't it leak down again to where it stopped before?
Is it not leaking because the skimmer line has filled with water now?
I cannot get the leaf trap top off. It is stuck bad.
The skimmer and main drain are attached to the same valve and I have the skimmer value to OFF.
Posted 2011-10-04 02:18:38
Posted 2011-10-04 15:47:48
Ok, you have a KK or Barracuda automatic pool cleaner in this pool yes? Or have had at one point in time? That is what the blue adapter in the skimmer line is for?... I'm not certain as it looks like an adapter and based on the type of skimmer they used and such it may be something new I'm not familiar with but it definitely looks like that type of adapter.
I believe I've seen and heard enough at this point to have this pretty much pinned down. Since you can't get the pump lid off it's a Sta-rite and no doubt either has never been lubricated properly or the wrong lubricant used which causes them to stick really badly due to over tightening and a lube that gets tacky instead of staying lubricious.
Don't use any petroleum based lubricants such as Vaseline or other they break down the rubber and make it sticky. Go to Home Depot or where ever including most pool stores and purchase a product called Super Lube it comes in a silver colored can or tube I use them both but for your purposes the tube is better. It's a Teflon based lubricant and never gets tacky and when you use it clean and dry the lid O-ring carefully and then apply sparingly and do not over-tighten the lid.
It is likely you or more likely the owners before you had air coming into the system and likely misdiagnosed it as a gasket problem and instead it was due primarily to your leak problem as these Sta-rite gaskets last years and virtually never fail that way (I'll explain the connection in a minute) but they kept over-tightening the pot lid in trying to stop the air intrusion thinking it was the source of the problem but it isn't/wasn't.
All indicators point to my original predictions I'm afraid in that you have a fractured skimmer line look at the picture below.
This skimmer is similar to yours from an underground perspective the locations indicated by the arrows are a serious weak point in the plumbing and this picture illustrates why as well.
SkimmerPlumbingV.jpg 301.96K
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The 90degree elbow here is solidly mounted in the bottom of the skimmer with no ability to 'flex' or 'give' and therefore places a lot of strain on the center of the joint pushing it downward due to the weight of the pipe, the water inside and the dirt on top as it settles over time & now compound that with possibly an automatic suction pool cleaner and you have a recipe for a moderately costly piping repair.
Though this fitting is clear and a 'T' it's still representative as they also make 90's the same way. I couldn't find one that was white in a quick search but it illustrates the ONLY fittings that should be used in under ground plumbing and the only one I used when I built pools. I made that change 20 years ago and they're a bit more expensive but only pennies per unit and I felt it was far more worth it and I was right as I never had a failure once I made the change in spite of many prior but had much less headaches, call backs and expensive repairs which was more then worth the minimal extra cost. The company that makes these is named Dura and I'd insist on having it repaired with nothing less, but because of that little extra cost many cookie cutter pool companies and others too don't use them when building.
ReinforcedT copy.jpg 36.33K
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The reinforcing gussets you see in the joint are the primary factor for their strength they also have a few more internally, this is the thinnest point of the fitting but yet takes the most stress and strain.. If you factor in the pool cleaner (and BTW there was one there maybe they took it with them), those type of cleaners use a tongue (for a basic description) that uses water flow like a Rainbird sprinkler, in this case though the flow is inwards not outwards but the principle applied is the same and it channels that flow interruption to move the unit on the floor and walls with a clicking sound and the hydraulic hammering effect created by the flow being interrupted moves the water to & fro within the pipe and that exacerbates the problem creating a continual, rhythmic rocking motion and fracture of the pipe joint.
The only one that doesn't use this system is a Pool Vac system and is by far my most recommended, user friendly and reliable cleaner..
This pipe as you can see is well below the mouth of the skimmer so once it drops below the mouth it continues to get water flow back up through the skimmer through the other pipes in the system which are all tied together and the vacuum maintained on it even with the pump off instead you get a back flowing siphoning effect.. If you notice though, and imagine the height of where the pipe lies you can see that it's right about the location of your water level where it is now..
I see now that the skimmer valve is off, I assume you shut it off recently? It was not off before right? This is the only piece to the puzzle that doesn't fit, but it does if you shut it off since my previous posts as that means the skimmer is now isolated from the rest of the system and thus your pool is now gaining water again and no longer leaking.. The reason your skimmer has water too is that it will lose very slowly now as it has minimal pressure on it by only the small volume of water trapped in the skimmer and another factor is that a skimmer line is subject to a lot of small debris such as what you have in it now that can/will get sucked into the crack and hang up with minimal suction to pull to move it through literally blocking the leak until it rots and decomposes and gets sucked through again at which point it will leak much harder again..
You need to get the blue adapter out of the line and then do the test I outlined in my previous posts to confirm it is the skimmer line. Once you've done this you can seal it off at least for now and get it filtering by leaving a sealed plug in the line, the skimmer valve off and operating it through the M/D line and using the vacuum line to clean it which BTW is where the cleaner should have been installed anyways.. Then when you see it is holding water get a competent (?) company to do the repair and not the one that plumbed it in the first place as the system plumbing above ground including the valves is not impressive, too many 90's too many couplings it's quite a mish mash I'm sorry to say and representative of what's probably underground...
The repair should be around $300 to $600 if it's done right and I'm factoring the inflation costs these days.. Hopefully you have some under deck access immediately behind your skimmer and they don't have to go through your deck, that's a nightmare all around..
I suggest this was also the source of the air intrusion that caused them to over-tighten the lid in the first place to try to make the pool cleaner work properly but it was more due to the pipe fracture below it and by using the cleaner also magnified the problem by causing it to suck more air and maybe even the pump to lose prime. when you load the system with a cleaner it will take air (much easier to pull then water is) from anywhere it can get it.
JFYI this type of leak is a lot of fun to find if you don't have the experience because the pool looses more water while it's off then when it's running due to sucking inwardly when operating so many technicians dismiss it being a pipe. The only exception is if the fracture is cracked in the direction of the water flow in which case it looses more water while running but still plenty while not..
Whew!! I need a nap now...
Edited by WarpSpeed, 2011-10-04 15:56:56.
Posted 2011-10-05 08:42:34
The blue adapter won't come off, any tricks?
Why does the skimmer have a pipe that goes down and attaches to the drain?
thx
Posted 2011-10-05 14:45:28
farang000999, on 2011-10-05 08:42:34, said:
The blue adapter won't come off, any tricks?
Why does the skimmer have a pipe that goes down and attaches to the drain?
thx
Try twisting the adapter to unscrew it, it should be threaded in, if you can't get it out you can't test the line by plugging it I can only tell you what should happen, I'm 12,000 miles away I can't give you the ingenuity to do it. If you're in over your head at this point maybe it's time to call in a professional with the info I've given you to prevent doing more damage or chasing a wild goose..
I haven't completely dismissed the returns as possibly the problem either since this hasn't been effectively tested as you mentioned it had been previously..
I took notice that the directional adapters are still in the wall returns as well so I'm wondering how you were able to plug them off to test the returns as there is no plug that can do that effectively while they're still in place. If you look inside them they have a small channel formed into the side of them and any plug you put inside will not seal them off because of it. Most are just pressed in but occasionally some unqualified idiot glues them in. You should be able to gently pull them off with a straight claw hammer or small pry bar taking care not to scar the wall. If they're glued they need to be sacrificed and cut out to do the job right and that takes special skills to do properly and without doing more damage.
Also if you have not been able to open the pot lid like you said then you've never stopped the back flow siphon to the returns and therefore the returns are still a major candidate.. You can't skip steps and say you did it, there's a process that has to be followed otherwise it's all just a waste of time and no insult intended but that's MY TIME being wasted..
I don't mean to be snooty here but removing the pot lid is pretty basic stuff that needs to be done regularly anyways so if that's a problem then certainly this more complicated stuff is going down paths you're not qualified to travel.
You didn't answer any of my questions in my previous post either, I've taken quite a bit of time with PS illustrations and such and given you quite a bit of information with little feedback to go on and without I can't give you proper info as it all just becomes guess work, I'm not asking just for banter, so it's a bit frustrating, we need to get to the point here it's dragging on, I usually charge $100 for the first 2 hours of diagnosis and I'm exceeding that now by some margin for free....
The pipe going to the M/D in the picture is the cheap way to install and isn't relative to your installation. The skimmer has 2 holes obviously in that case and a special valve that has a float in it and a small plastic tab that you can close which will force the pump to pull water through the M/D line instead of a separate line and valve system like yours has.. They do sometimes use both lines as well by plumbing the pipe to the M/D and then one to the pump directly through the plug you see in the bottom of the M/D instead of using it as a hydrostatic line but that is seldom done in Florida where there is so much static underground water requiring the plug in the bottom to equalize that water pressure..
Edited by WarpSpeed, 2011-10-05 15:04:57.
Posted 2011-10-06 00:29:53
Quote I took notice that the directional adapters are still in the wall returns as well so I'm wondering how you were able to plug them off to test the returns as there is no plug that can do that effectively while they're still in place. If you look inside them they have a small channel formed into the side of them and any plug you put inside will not seal them off because of it.
Ok. I had used a rubber plug stuck inside of there. But the water level is still not falling so I still think the skimmer leak is more likely as it seems to have stopped leaking since I turned off the skimmer valve.
Quote Ok, you have a KK or Barracuda automatic pool cleaner in this pool yes?
They had one of those.
Quote I see now that the skimmer valve is off, I assume you shut it off recently?
Yes I closed it so that I could stop the pool from turning green. I shut the skimmer and left the bottom drain on as illustrated in the picture. I did this at about where the pool water level is now.
Quote The pipe going to the M/D in the picture is the cheap way to install and isn't relative to your installation.
Ok, so if I get the blue adapter off and put a rubber plug in the skimmer and keep the skimmer valve on off, should be able to refill the pool and see if it continues leaking or not? Would this method be effective at isolating the skimmer?
Will get the teflon spray today after work and give it a shot and see if the return line are glued or stuck in.
Posted 2011-10-06 01:25:11
Ok, sounds good but not a rubber plug for the skimmer use a threaded plug like the one in your M/D.
Did you close the skimmer line before or after I mentioned it?
Edit: I see you said you just shut the skimmer line, so that's good news for the test bad news for the end result in that it confirms the missing piece.
If it was closed already the pool shouldn't have lost water unless it doesn't fully seal and that type of valve seal in those space saver Jandy valves is quite possible it has been damaged and water is leaking past it..
Jandy valves are the best on the market I even imported some here for a job I did some years ago. The Never Lube valve is now guaranteed for life with Teflon seals in them and no lube required.
Never lubes are larger and black, those valves are not Never lubes and they don't have any way to lube them, so the rubber seals swell and get pinched off after a while and then don't seal completely but since it's in a closed system it usually isn't really an issue, but in this case they can leak backflow which is why the back up to the test is to open the trap and break the prime AKA siphon...
The lube I'm suggesting is not to loosen the lid but it will keep it from being over tightened by creating a lubricated seal. They probably used this blue or greenish, gummy rubbish called water lube or aqua lube, don't use them the pool store may try to sell it to you not knowing about Super lube or not carrying it but don't buy it, it's crap comparatively speaking..
To get the top off, a pool store will have a special tool for a Sta-rite. There is a trick with a common hammer but I'm reluctant to say as it's kind of difficult to explain and you can break the lid..
I'll give it a try, but try at your own risk...
Take the hammer and place the palm of your left hand if your right handed firmly on the opposite side of the lid on the opposite side in the direction of removal (righty tighty = lefty loosey) and press firmly like un-screwing just like doing a breast press excercise.
Take the hammer and gently hit close to the outside edge of the lid where it meets the lid you can see the lid is thicker there where it is molded, anywhere else and it's too thin and you'll break it, hit with the hammer head flat and as low to the top of the lid as possible.. While pressing with firm pressure with your left hand gently tap this spot I mentioned with the hammer, on this spot it can take a pretty good hit without breaking but still try not to hit it too hard.. Once you break the vacuum and the initial sticking it should open easily from there, in fact this is usually a knuckle buster so keep your fingers tight and not extended, you could even break one if you're not careful as it lets loose pretty unexpectedly and you have to apply a lot of pressure with the other hand simultaneously. Then proceed to remove the pot basket and clean it out and replace taking care to make sure the 2 catches are properly in place and you've rotated the basket to lock it down properly.
If you're careful you can also use a large pipe wrench on the same spot or large pair of channel locks which I use but you have to twist with even pressure on both sides at once or you'll damage the lid and guaranteed your knuckles as well..
Having done this go ahead with cleaning it but hold off on lubricating it, leave it open and then if you plug the skimmer line you can refill the pool add some Cl2 and check it for a dry 24 hours. You know what it was doing before so it should be easy to see what it is doing now in the same period of time.
If it doesn't leak, for piece of mind I'd still go ahead with getting a second plug and putting a hole in it like I mentioned and screw that in and place some dye in front of it. It will suck like the pump is on if it's leaking it will not be ambiguous and I like to do this for customers as it's definitive like seeing the actual leak.
If it fails this test then put in the solid plug and then you can at least turn the pump back on (after lubing and closing the lid of course) and keep the pool clean until you can get a pool company to repair it..
I'd also ask the pool company to unscrew the tops of your valves and rotate them to the proper direction they aren't installed properly but the good thing about those valves is that no matter what direction you install them you can rotate them so they work properly..
Actually on second thought now that I think of it they probably just broke the stops off the bottom of the handles so they rotate 360 degrees now don't they?
Anyway I hope that works out for ya let me know what the result is..
BTW don't bother with the returns at the moment it may be extra work and cost for no reason.. Check the skimmer first..
Edited by WarpSpeed, 2011-10-06 01:31:10.
Posted 2011-10-09 13:36:46
I had noticed something else about your system but hadn't give it much digestion until now.
The pump is plumbed in with an MTA (Male Threaded Adapter) in the front and no doubt in the top as well and it looks as if they used Teflon tape instead of a good pipe dope to seal the threads. This should have been a schedule 80 tapered nipple instead and once your pump is running it will leak air into the pump likely so if you have air intrusion when it's running this will likely be the cause but at minimum the first place to begin.. You can test if it sucks air before plumbing by putting some glue around the outside and observing to see if it effects the air in the system dramatically, it may get sucked in pretty quickly so watch closely.
If it does you may be able to use some pipe dope around it to seal it as glue will not bond at all to the pump plastic (fortunately) but this is only temporary at best and messy at worst as when the pump shuts off the water inside being pumped equalizes suddenly and then momentarily pressure comes back forcefully and will blow out any sealer you put in place so it does need to be replumbed, it's unavoidable..
You can see this phenomena when a quick burst of water comes out of the pot lid seal at shut down. The previously forward pressure, backflows instantly and then it all returns to a slight vacuum afterwards but for that instant the entire system is under pressure.
The top fitting may leak water but not necessarily, though usually it does because the steam rises and this is even hotter then in the pot being directly over the impeller. In the old days this would have been a catastrophic pump melt down requiring a new pump but thanks to Sta-rite and new thermal plastics technology now damage is reduced to a minimum but the pump shaft seal may also become a victim as it has rubber seals on it so be aware of any leaks underneath the motor that do not seem to have an origin.
This is all a byproduct of the same pool leak as often at some point the pump ran dry when it came on automatically in the morning due to the water level dropping or too much air preventing the pump from priming, so it never does. This grows exponentially to create more of a problem the more damage is done and the more air that is introduced.
If you look closely the MTA may be distorted a bit out of shape due to the high temps that the water inside the trap got to. The water in the trap will literally get to a boiling point since it is not getting any cool water to cool it with and then it steams the pipe to melting point and the glue also loosens, the tell tail sign of this happening is often the condensation you see on the inside of the lid as in your picture (not in all cases mind you but in most cases).
Then when it does get some cool water flow the pipe goes from heated expansion to cooling shrinkage and the pump can go through this process numerous times but it really only takes it one time for damage to be done and from there on in it's worse every time..
Posted 2012-03-30 13:58:21
So Farang how about an update??
Posted 2012-03-30 15:40:47
Naam, on 2011-09-11 16:01:44, said:
farang000999, on 2011-09-11 10:36:18, said:
my inground pool is leaking. my plan is to just wait and see where the water stops at. however, if the leak is at the bottom (a crack i have not found) is there a risk of the pool popping out of the ground? would i have to drill relief holes? how low can the pool drain before it could pop out of the ground?
until the water level in the ground pops it up. if the water drains = no pop-up.
most pools should have a screw capped relief hole in the bottom under a plastic twist of cover to stop potential floating...just unscrew and leave open when pool empty...
Posted 2012-03-30 23:48:39
David006, on 2012-03-30 15:40:47, said:
Naam, on 2011-09-11 16:01:44, said:
farang000999, on 2011-09-11 10:36:18, said:
my inground pool is leaking. my plan is to just wait and see where the water stops at. however, if the leak is at the bottom (a crack i have not found) is there a risk of the pool popping out of the ground? would i have to drill relief holes? how low can the pool drain before it could pop out of the ground?
until the water level in the ground pops it up. if the water drains = no pop-up.
most pools should have a screw capped relief hole in the bottom under a plastic twist of cover to stop potential floating...just unscrew and leave open when pool empty...
No don't do that, you should have read more of the thread as he doesn't have a leak in the bottom and the pool in question is in Florida with high static water levels if he did until it actually drained completely which would not be advisable he should not remove the hydrostatic plug alone..
Edited by WarpSpeed, 2012-03-30 23:50:15.
Posted 2012-03-31 05:17:12
WarpSpeed, on 2012-03-30 23:48:39, said:
David006, on 2012-03-30 15:40:47, said:
Naam, on 2011-09-11 16:01:44, said:
farang000999, on 2011-09-11 10:36:18, said:
my inground pool is leaking. my plan is to just wait and see where the water stops at. however, if the leak is at the bottom (a crack i have not found) is there a risk of the pool popping out of the ground? would i have to drill relief holes? how low can the pool drain before it could pop out of the ground?
until the water level in the ground pops it up. if the water drains = no pop-up.
most pools should have a screw capped relief hole in the bottom under a plastic twist of cover to stop potential floating...just unscrew and leave open when pool empty...
No don't do that, you should have read more of the thread as he doesn't have a leak in the bottom and the pool in question is in Florida with high static water levels if he did until it actually drained completely which would not be advisable he should not remove the hydrostatic plug alone..
think I said when the pool is empty.?...never mind..
.....strange that the OP cannot find far more help and advice in the US..gotta be a million blogs out there....
Posted 2012-03-31 13:59:17
David006, on 2012-03-31 05:17:12, said:
WarpSpeed, on 2012-03-30 23:48:39, said:
David006, on 2012-03-30 15:40:47, said:
Naam, on 2011-09-11 16:01:44, said:
until the water level in the ground pops it up. if the water drains = no pop-up.
most pools should have a screw capped relief hole in the bottom under a plastic twist of cover to stop potential floating...just unscrew and leave open when pool empty...
No don't do that, you should have read more of the thread as he doesn't have a leak in the bottom and the pool in question is in Florida with high static water levels if he did until it actually drained completely which would not be advisable he should not remove the hydrostatic plug alone..
think I said when the pool is empty.?...never mind..
.....strange that the OP cannot find far more help and advice in the US..gotta be a million blogs out there....
Well actually the OP is not the one in Florida as I understand that's just where the thread ended up with another poster seeking answers, which is another reason it's important if not oft times boring and time consuming to read more and get a better sense of the thread content..
Edited by WarpSpeed, 2012-03-31 14:00:08.
Posted 2012-03-31 16:33:12
Well actually the OP is not the one in Florida as I understand that's just where the thread ended up with another poster seeking answers, which is another reason it's important if not oft times boring and time consuming to read more and get a better sense of the thread content..
Yeah a bit boring to scroll through the whole thread..nevertheless the WWW still has lots of answers....better I leave it to the experts on TV methinks...beer is probably about to explode in freezer ...lol
Posted 2012-04-19 18:45:15
PoolDoctor, on 2011-01-13 22:03:25, said:
Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.
Best,
Gil
I have a 9M x 3M x1.5M pool, losing one tile ( about 4 inches ) of water a day.
It used to leak through the spider filter as sand pebbles from the sandwash deck would get into the
filter and create bubbles or pits where the water could leak out. I finally got tired of removing the head and cleaning it out and I can not find a replacement seal for it here in Phuket.
But now I have a new problem. I was going out of town for a few days and asked the staff to shock the pool with chlorine. I am guessing they did not buy chlorine but hydrochloric acid from some one as when I returned the pH level was extremely acidic. I added 22 pounds of soda ash but it did not seem to make any difference. The grout is now very soft and crumbles at the touch. To add to the
confusion as to the source of the leak, we had an earthquake here which moved the ground the same week. I closed all the valves once I saw it was losing a tile a day and I have been waiting to see where the water level will stop dropping. I capped the main drain at the bottom of the pool and the water is now below all return lines, lights, etc. and still dropping.
I am pretty much convinced at this point it is leaking through the grout as I can see no clear sign of a break, crack or water movement.
So, the question is, is it possible to lose this much water a day through the grout?
If so, can you recommend a grout to fix this problem? Do I need to remove all the old grout?
Finally, could you do this job?
Advice welcome.
Posted 2012-04-25 22:32:55
farang000999, on 2011-09-16 01:15:10, said:
well i got rubber plugs and it is not the piping. that leaves the light and the drain. i can see that the light niche was previously wrapped with epoxy. at the base of the cord, where it meets the expoxy mountain, it appears to be separating. however, when i spray some food coloring it really does not appear to get sucked in at all.
so that only leaves the drain. i have search the pool for cracks and none exist.
if the pool is leaking from the drain wont that make it very risky that the pool pops out as the ground becomes more filled with water and the pool lighter?
Hi,
Can you tell me where you got the rubber plugs from?
Posted 2012-05-10 07:20:12
Naam, on 2011-09-09 18:10:57, said:
i hate to burst the "bucket" bubble but i can't help it. water in a bucket under equal conditions such as sun radiation and ambient temperatur will always evaporate faster than water in an inground pool provided that the poolpump is not working and therefore the surface not moving.
reason:
the bucket water will heat up to a higher temperature than the water in an inground pool with the walls not exposed to higher air temperature than the soil. higher temperature = higher differential water temp / air temp causes higher evaporation. even the above ground pool the OP described will not heat up as fast as the water in a bucket.
by the way, the "PoolDoctor" was right with his claim "considerable loss of water because of defective seal 5-way valve". it happened to me in my former home years ago.
True; but the trick is to put the bucket in the pool. Put the bucket on one of the pool steps, weigh it down with a brick, fill with water to the same level as the pool, observe over time.
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