Posted 2011-09-26 22:48:04
 eslteacher, on 2011-09-26 22:20:28, said:
Hey, now don't me wrong. I am not an advocate of a vegan/vegetarian diet but thats not to say it can't be an effective diet if done properly. But in my opinion, incorporating meat into one's diet is a healthier option. And if you look at most of the healthiest populations throughout the world and in our history, the majority of them consumed meat/dairy and often times made up the majority of their calories.
Okay, so nutrients that cannot be found in plants or in only trace amounts;
- Creatine - essential for ATP.
- Taurine - One of the essential amino acids that play many pivotal roles in the body. Cannot be found in plant foods.
- Carnitine
- Carnosine
- B complex vitamins as you already mentioned.
- Iron
- Zinc
- Omega 3 fatty acids - an incredibly important fat that once again plays an instrumental role in human health. Best sources of O3 are in fatty fish. Omega 3 can be found in plant sources but in the ALA form which the body has to convert into DHA and EPA. And here, the conversion rate is extremely low. Another reason why taking flax seed oil may not be as beneficial as one would think. Consuming fatty fish containing high amounts of O3, it is already in its DHA and EPA form.
It is always better to get these nutrients from real food sources as opposed to supplementation.
I'm pretty sure we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one  I only supplement B12 because it is so hard to come by naturally, but as far as I know I'm not missing anything else.
But I am going to look into the nutrients you mentioned. Some of them I know off the top of my head, others I will look into.
So here's what I have for the essential fatty acids. Any thoughts?
For iron, I'm pretty sure I can explain that fully enough on my own as we've had lots of experience with that in my family here. Before I get into the details, suffice it to say that you can get more than enough iron from green leafy vegetables! While the amount of iron in plants is not as high as that of meat product, plant-based iron is much more absorbable and used more fully by the body. So if you eat a bowl full of greens your body will absorb more iron than if you eat an animal food with more iron that is much less absorbable. Does that sound reasonable?
Now, for my personal experience. My husband is from Isaan where something like 90% of the population is iron deficient-- ranging from just mildly deficient to anemic to full blow thalassemia. My oldest daughter was about a year old when her doctor noticed she was quite anemic. Since she was so young, the dr. initially wanted to put her on high iron supplementation to see if that would help her get to where she needed to be. Her numbers were so low, that the dr. suspected thalassimia and recommended a very high iron dose. We compromised and the dr. agreed to let me try and get more iron into her naturally for a month and see how things looked. Since she was still breastfeeding, I increased my own green leafy veggie intake to as much as I could possibly eat in hopes of passing as much on to her as I could. I also started adding greens to everything she ate. And I kid you not, in that one month trial not only did her levels go up-- they went all the way up to normal without a single supplement. Then along came my second daughter who also was showing signs of the same problem, although much milder. Did the same regimen with her-- I upped my own intake to pass along, while also giving her greens with everything. Same result-- iron levels were perfectly fine at the next checkup. And thankfully, they did not need the extra high plant-based iron forever, cause I know I could not eat that many greens for years and years. But for a year or so, it was very worth it to get my girls stabalized and off to a healthy start. They both eat plenty of greens now on their own and haven't had an issue since.
I will get back to you on the other nutrients as I have a chance, as I always learn quite a bit from these types of discussions. Also hoping the OP doesn't mind
Edited by Niranut, 2011-09-26 22:48:58.
#27
cameravisio
Posted 2011-09-26 23:27:18
IF you could get true free range grass fed meat/dairy that is one thing, BUT they are still not foods for humans. Medical proved this 100 years ago. Our body cannot digest meats nor dairy and they require ACID to break down and our body is ALKALINE, so body takes calcium from bones to buffer acidity of wrong foods.
Fruits/nuts/seeds/leaves are our natural foods that keep our body alkaline.
All your needed nutrients are in these foods + sun exposure. Supplement with herbs is good too.
You can eat some meats if you want but we are not designed to digest them.
Any why would you want your nutrients from a cow. What does the cow eat for his nutrients to make all that beef ? GRASS
Cow's milk is not compatible with the human body. It doubles the baby cows' weight every 2 weeks. Goat's milk is closer to human milk.
If you want to go back in history to justify meat then go back 10,000+ years. There were no butchers, cookers, burgers. It is not natural food for us.
THe body needs FATS & SUGARS
Olive oil, nuts (fats for the brain) etc.
Sweet fruits (the 220 natural sugars for the humans) Never the commercial white refined sugars which are poison/over stimulants to the body.
Minerals come from the trees
Want a diet with NO fats & NO sugars (natural)....watch your health go down the drain.
Calories is a heat measurement and has no meaning with regard to the body's requirements.
#28
cameravisio
Posted 2011-09-26 23:56:09
Edited by cameravisio, 2011-09-26 23:58:25.
Posted 2011-09-27 15:24:01
Niranut, on 2011-09-26 22:48:04, said:
eslteacher, on 2011-09-26 22:20:28, said:
Hey, now don't me wrong. I am not an advocate of a vegan/vegetarian diet but thats not to say it can't be an effective diet if done properly. But in my opinion, incorporating meat into one's diet is a healthier option. And if you look at most of the healthiest populations throughout the world and in our history, the majority of them consumed meat/dairy and often times made up the majority of their calories.
Okay, so nutrients that cannot be found in plants or in only trace amounts;
- Creatine - essential for ATP.
- Taurine - One of the essential amino acids that play many pivotal roles in the body. Cannot be found in plant foods.
- Carnitine
- Carnosine
- B complex vitamins as you already mentioned.
- Iron
- Zinc
- Omega 3 fatty acids - an incredibly important fat that once again plays an instrumental role in human health. Best sources of O3 are in fatty fish. Omega 3 can be found in plant sources but in the ALA form which the body has to convert into DHA and EPA. And here, the conversion rate is extremely low. Another reason why taking flax seed oil may not be as beneficial as one would think. Consuming fatty fish containing high amounts of O3, it is already in its DHA and EPA form.
It is always better to get these nutrients from real food sources as opposed to supplementation.
I'm pretty sure we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one I only supplement B12 because it is so hard to come by naturally, but as far as I know I'm not missing anything else.
But I am going to look into the nutrients you mentioned. Some of them I know off the top of my head, others I will look into.
So here's what I have for the essential fatty acids. Any thoughts?
For iron, I'm pretty sure I can explain that fully enough on my own as we've had lots of experience with that in my family here. Before I get into the details, suffice it to say that you can get more than enough iron from green leafy vegetables! While the amount of iron in plants is not as high as that of meat product, plant-based iron is much more absorbable and used more fully by the body. So if you eat a bowl full of greens your body will absorb more iron than if you eat an animal food with more iron that is much less absorbable. Does that sound reasonable?
Now, for my personal experience. My husband is from Isaan where something like 90% of the population is iron deficient-- ranging from just mildly deficient to anemic to full blow thalassemia. My oldest daughter was about a year old when her doctor noticed she was quite anemic. Since she was so young, the dr. initially wanted to put her on high iron supplementation to see if that would help her get to where she needed to be. Her numbers were so low, that the dr. suspected thalassimia and recommended a very high iron dose. We compromised and the dr. agreed to let me try and get more iron into her naturally for a month and see how things looked. Since she was still breastfeeding, I increased my own green leafy veggie intake to as much as I could possibly eat in hopes of passing as much on to her as I could. I also started adding greens to everything she ate. And I kid you not, in that one month trial not only did her levels go up-- they went all the way up to normal without a single supplement. Then along came my second daughter who also was showing signs of the same problem, although much milder. Did the same regimen with her-- I upped my own intake to pass along, while also giving her greens with everything. Same result-- iron levels were perfectly fine at the next checkup. And thankfully, they did not need the extra high plant-based iron forever, cause I know I could not eat that many greens for years and years. But for a year or so, it was very worth it to get my girls stabalized and off to a healthy start. They both eat plenty of greens now on their own and haven't had an issue since.
I will get back to you on the other nutrients as I have a chance, as I always learn quite a bit from these types of discussions. Also hoping the OP doesn't mind
That's impressive. Good job.
In terms of it being more absorbable, I really wouldnt know. I'll take a look at it.
Posted 2011-09-27 18:06:56
eslteacher, on 2011-09-27 15:24:01, said:
That's impressive. Good job.
In terms of it being more absorbable, I really wouldnt know. I'll take a look at it.
Correction: after relating the iron story to my husband for the umpteenth time, he reminded me that it took a few months for my oldest (who was borderline thalassimia) to get her numbers up where they should be. It was after one month that we went back for a checkup, and there was enough of an improvement that the dr. agreed the natural approach was working fine to continue. We went back again a couple months later and she was fine. It was the younger daughter who we checked early and noticed a mild deficiency-- she took just a month to get where she needed to be.
Now, for today's nutrient-- creatine. I just had a minute to look into this and this seems to sum up the overall consensus of what I was able to find:
"The endogenic synthesis of creatine in the human liver is adequate for normal functioning of the human body. In other words, vegetarians do not suffer from creatine deficiency even though vegetables do not contain creatine. However, scientific studies show us that an addition of creatine intake to a vegetarian diet does indeed enhance physical performance."
(taken from here)
From what I can gather, the average person who is physically active is perfectly fine. I got the impression that professional atheletes and bobybuilders are big into creatine supplementation. I'm not about enhancing my physical performance beyond what I am designed to do, so I'm ok with that.
cameravision also makes an *excellent* point about the acid vs. alkeline issue, which is a big deal (and problem for long term meat eaters).
Posted 2011-09-27 18:28:32
cameravisio, on 2011-09-26 23:27:18, said:
IF you could get true free range grass fed meat/dairy that is one thing, BUT they are still not foods for humans. Medical proved this 100 years ago. Our body cannot digest meats nor dairy and they require ACID to break down and our body is ALKALINE, so body takes calcium from bones to buffer acidity of wrong foods.
Fruits/nuts/seeds/leaves are our natural foods that keep our body alkaline.
All your needed nutrients are in these foods + sun exposure. Supplement with herbs is good too.
You can eat some meats if you want but we are not designed to digest them.
Any why would you want your nutrients from a cow. What does the cow eat for his nutrients to make all that beef ? GRASS
Cow's milk is not compatible with the human body. It doubles the baby cows' weight every 2 weeks. Goat's milk is closer to human milk.
If you want to go back in history to justify meat then go back 10,000+ years. There were no butchers, cookers, burgers. It is not natural food for us.
THe body needs FATS & SUGARS
Olive oil, nuts (fats for the brain) etc.
Sweet fruits (the 220 natural sugars for the humans) Never the commercial white refined sugars which are poison/over stimulants to the body.
Minerals come from the trees
Want a diet with NO fats & NO sugars (natural)....watch your health go down the drain.
Calories is a heat measurement and has no meaning with regard to the body's requirements.
I agree with almost everything you posted there EXCEPT for eating meat and dairy. We are designed to eat meat, saying we arent is just ridiculous. You got that the other way around. Our bodies are, ARE designed to breakdown and digest meat. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Sunlight (vit D) is essential. It is amazing how important this nutrient is and how much of a role in can play in disease prevention.
Another factor that often flies off the radar is stress. I would say diet is 80% to health and the other 20% are exercise and managing stress both of equal importance. Stress is unavoidable but constant, day to day stress can lead to a variety of problems.
In another words, if you want to be healthy, get your diet in check and exercise, play, socialize with friends and manage your stress.
Posted 2011-09-27 22:29:23
cameravisio, on 2011-09-26 23:27:18, said:
IF you could get true free range grass fed meat/dairy that is one thing, BUT they are still not foods for humans. Medical proved this 100 years ago. Our body cannot digest meats nor dairy and they require ACID to break down and our body is ALKALINE, so body takes calcium from bones to buffer acidity of wrong foods.
Fruits/nuts/seeds/leaves are our natural foods that keep our body alkaline.
All your needed nutrients are in these foods + sun exposure. Supplement with herbs is good too.
You can eat some meats if you want but we are not designed to digest them.
Any why would you want your nutrients from a cow. What does the cow eat for his nutrients to make all that beef ? GRASS
Cow's milk is not compatible with the human body. It doubles the baby cows' weight every 2 weeks. Goat's milk is closer to human milk.
If you want to go back in history to justify meat then go back 10,000+ years. There were no butchers, cookers, burgers. It is not natural food for us.
THe body needs FATS & SUGARS
Olive oil, nuts (fats for the brain) etc.
Sweet fruits (the 220 natural sugars for the humans) Never the commercial white refined sugars which are poison/over stimulants to the body.
Minerals come from the trees
Want a diet with NO fats & NO sugars (natural)....watch your health go down the drain.
Calories is a heat measurement and has no meaning with regard to the body's requirements.
Your funny, just look at chimps they eat meat. The only reason we evolved our brains is because we started eating meat. Meat is packed with calories and much more viable then vegetables. We are omnivores we can eat most things.
People always were HUNTER (you don't hunt vegetables) Gatherers (you do gather them) for as long as we know.
Posted 2011-09-27 23:24:00
robblok, on 2011-09-27 22:29:23, said:
cameravisio, on 2011-09-26 23:27:18, said:
IF you could get true free range grass fed meat/dairy that is one thing, BUT they are still not foods for humans. Medical proved this 100 years ago. Our body cannot digest meats nor dairy and they require ACID to break down and our body is ALKALINE, so body takes calcium from bones to buffer acidity of wrong foods.
Fruits/nuts/seeds/leaves are our natural foods that keep our body alkaline.
All your needed nutrients are in these foods + sun exposure. Supplement with herbs is good too.
You can eat some meats if you want but we are not designed to digest them.
Any why would you want your nutrients from a cow. What does the cow eat for his nutrients to make all that beef ? GRASS
Cow's milk is not compatible with the human body. It doubles the baby cows' weight every 2 weeks. Goat's milk is closer to human milk.
If you want to go back in history to justify meat then go back 10,000+ years. There were no butchers, cookers, burgers. It is not natural food for us.
THe body needs FATS & SUGARS
Olive oil, nuts (fats for the brain) etc.
Sweet fruits (the 220 natural sugars for the humans) Never the commercial white refined sugars which are poison/over stimulants to the body.
Minerals come from the trees
Want a diet with NO fats & NO sugars (natural)....watch your health go down the drain.
Calories is a heat measurement and has no meaning with regard to the body's requirements.
Your funny, just look at chimps they eat meat. The only reason we evolved our brains is because we started eating meat. Meat is packed with calories and much more viable then vegetables. We are omnivores we can eat most things.
People always were HUNTER (you don't hunt vegetables) Gatherers (you do gather them) for as long as we know.
Amen.
I have nothing against vegetarians/vegans. I dont get all bent out of shape what they eat but thats not to say I cant criticize their diet. Its not an optimal diet and its amazing that people ignore what humans have eaten throughout our entire history. We tend to ignore populations that have remained in phenomenal health for centuries despite eating food that is deemed by many to be "unhealthy." There are populations throughout the world that are in fantastic health despite eating diets rich in fat/cholesterol which are supposedly going to clog arteries, give you heart disease and cancer and yet disease is virtually nonexistent in these populations.
We are designed to eat meat. Those who say otherwise really dont know what they are talking about.
Posted 2011-09-28 00:18:34
Cameravisio,
Actually, the stomach specifically employs an enzyme called 'protease', which is designed to break down protein. Meat is just chock full of protein. Plants have it, too. I'm not taking sides on which are healthier sources of such overall, but to say the body can't digest meat nor is meant to- when our teeth so clearly are omnivorous and we come from a line of omnivorous mammals (any biologist would recognise from our teeth alone that we had a meat-eating history) with some predatory instincts- is a bit in denial of our body function, evolution, and design.
PS, the stomach is lined especially so it won't start digesting itself. If we weren't 'designed' to digest meat, there'd be little need for such protection, no?
PPS, you seem misinformed- as many are- about what 'alkaline' and 'acid' foods mean in the body. You probably think in terms of the pseudoscientific nutrition BS that has been going around that 'fruit turns alkaline in the stomach'. Not so; but the mineral salts left by digestion of fruit encourage the formation of basic compounds in the body and that gives a little balance to the acidic salts left by protein digestion, so that the kidneys have less work to do in regulating pH balance.
Posted 2011-09-28 01:21:54
Exactly. Our dental structure indicates we are omnivores.
And our pancreas has a variety of digestive enzymes that are designed for both animal and plant foods.
Posted 2011-09-28 08:16:17
eslteacher, on 2011-09-27 23:24:00, said:
Amen.
I have nothing against vegetarians/vegans. I dont get all bent out of shape what they eat but thats not to say I cant criticize their diet. Its not an optimal diet and its amazing that people ignore what humans have eaten throughout our entire history. We tend to ignore populations that have remained in phenomenal health for centuries despite eating food that is deemed by many to be "unhealthy." There are populations throughout the world that are in fantastic health despite eating diets rich in fat/cholesterol which are supposedly going to clog arteries, give you heart disease and cancer and yet disease is virtually nonexistent in these populations.
We are designed to eat meat. Those who say otherwise really dont know what they are talking about.
Last question... What populations are referring to here? Where are they? When were they?
As for those of us who say eating meat is not ideal/optimal not knowing what we're talking about, I would respectfully disagree. Vice versa, actually But I don't think we're going to convince each other on Thai Visa, so here's wishing everyone all the best in their health & wellness endeavors!
#37
cameravisio
Posted 2011-09-28 11:05:41
Teeth - humans have only two 'blunt' canines at front top and bottom that don't cut thru much very well. Would you like to try and eat a cow raw in the field like an animal does ? Don't think you would get very far. You can only eat meat when it is cooked and cooking didn't exist originally.so it is not a natural food for us. Animals don't chew their meat, they rip it and swallow it, their stomachs are much more acid than ours, they have shorter intestinal tract for a faster transit time, their 'teeth' are much sharper then ours. They are meat eaters, we are not, the mouths prove it.
We can't break down meat in the mouth (first and most important stage of digestion) to a liquid as we can the natural foods.
Eat meat only for 30 days and see how you feel.
ACID stomach starts to digest itself eventually (stomach ulcers). Acid stomach is a default mechanism of the body to break down wrong foods. Stomach is meant to be alkaline naturally.
You can force the body to eat meat but it is not a natural food for it.
Meat 2011 poisoned, contaminated, parasites, hormones, anti biotics, slime etc. + the meat
Cows eat grass. Feed a cow dead meat = mad cow. Feed a human cow meat = ????
PH test your ph after you eat meats. And after you eat fruits. The body will tell you what the food is doing to you.
Protein: meat is fourth hand protein. Sun to grass to cow to human.
The body works way too hard to break down/get rid of the meat
Fruits/nuts/seeds/leaves have superior protein and require little digestion.
Run on a stomach full of meat ? And on a stomach full of fruit.......
Bodybuilders get all that build up from meat ? Or you need the steroids/hormones/injections as a supplement ?
Gorilla pound for pound the strongest animal on the planet eats GRASS, leaves, a few berries/nuts. Or is eating steaks when we arent looking ?
The evidence stares us in the face if you use common sense
Posted 2011-09-28 17:03:30
If you are going to eat meat you should limit red meat and try to get organic cuts and get rid of all diary except perhaps low fat yogurt.
You should try to eat mostly fish and chicken and the chicken would be better if it was free range or organic.
In an ideal world a vegetarian diet would be optimal but it is too hard to balance for most people and requires a lot of effort in our busy world to look at everything you eat all the time.
Posted 2011-09-30 10:31:21
cameravisio, on 2011-09-28 11:05:41, said:
Teeth - humans have only two 'blunt' canines at front top and bottom that don't cut thru much very well. Would you like to try and eat a cow raw in the field like an animal does ? Don't think you would get very far. You can only eat meat when it is cooked and cooking didn't exist originally.so it is not a natural food for us. Animals don't chew their meat, they rip it and swallow it, their stomachs are much more acid than ours, they have shorter intestinal tract for a faster transit time, their 'teeth' are much sharper then ours. They are meat eaters, we are not, the mouths prove it.
We can't break down meat in the mouth (first and most important stage of digestion) to a liquid as we can the natural foods.
Eat meat only for 30 days and see how you feel.
ACID stomach starts to digest itself eventually (stomach ulcers). Acid stomach is a default mechanism of the body to break down wrong foods. Stomach is meant to be alkaline naturally.
You can force the body to eat meat but it is not a natural food for it.
Meat 2011 poisoned, contaminated, parasites, hormones, anti biotics, slime etc. + the meat
Cows eat grass. Feed a cow dead meat = mad cow. Feed a human cow meat = ????
PH test your ph after you eat meats. And after you eat fruits. The body will tell you what the food is doing to you.
Protein: meat is fourth hand protein. Sun to grass to cow to human.
The body works way too hard to break down/get rid of the meat
Fruits/nuts/seeds/leaves have superior protein and require little digestion.
Run on a stomach full of meat ? And on a stomach full of fruit.......
Bodybuilders get all that build up from meat ? Or you need the steroids/hormones/injections as a supplement ?
Gorilla pound for pound the strongest animal on the planet eats GRASS, leaves, a few berries/nuts. Or is eating steaks when we arent looking ?
The evidence stares us in the face if you use common sense
Same can be said for most vegetables. we need to boil them before they become edible for us. Just try to eat grass and see how good it is for you or bamboo 
I wonder who brainwashed you.
Posted 2011-09-30 22:53:33
Niranut, on 2011-09-28 08:16:17, said:
eslteacher, on 2011-09-27 23:24:00, said:
Amen.
I have nothing against vegetarians/vegans. I dont get all bent out of shape what they eat but thats not to say I cant criticize their diet. Its not an optimal diet and its amazing that people ignore what humans have eaten throughout our entire history. We tend to ignore populations that have remained in phenomenal health for centuries despite eating food that is deemed by many to be "unhealthy." There are populations throughout the world that are in fantastic health despite eating diets rich in fat/cholesterol which are supposedly going to clog arteries, give you heart disease and cancer and yet disease is virtually nonexistent in these populations.
We are designed to eat meat. Those who say otherwise really dont know what they are talking about.
Last question... What populations are referring to here? Where are they? When were they?
As for those of us who say eating meat is not ideal/optimal not knowing what we're talking about, I would respectfully disagree. Vice versa, actually But I don't think we're going to convince each other on Thai Visa, so here's wishing everyone all the best in their health & wellness endeavors!
Inuit, Canada, since ever, until now*
* since a few years they get a more "balanced" diet, so it will not take long time until they are extinct...
Posted 2011-12-28 14:11:40
how is there any debate? Enjoy the phytoestrogens in the soy and the lovely effects of that. only thing debatable is whether avoiding milk all together is best I think.
Posted 2011-12-28 14:14:24
Tolley, on 2011-09-28 17:03:30, said:
If you are going to eat meat you should limit red meat and try to get organic cuts and get rid of all diary except perhaps low fat yogurt.
You should try to eat mostly fish and chicken and the chicken would be better if it was free range or organic.
In an ideal world a vegetarian diet would be optimal but it is too hard to balance for most people and requires a lot of effort in our busy world to look at everything you eat all the time.
Why? Missing out on a lot of healthy fats if you eat only chicken, of course free range is FAR superior, its not even close. All the omega 3:6 ratios are out of control when the animals eat an unnatural diet (like us). People who have very low healthy fat intake are at an increased risk of stroke, cancer, and overall death.
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