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[rockyysdt]

Xangsamhua, on 2011-12-14 15:46:38, said:

We know we have consciousness, and we know we have memory and imagination and reasoning ability.  Moreover, we know that others have these things, too.   Are these the things that constitute mind or are they derived from some kind of universal mind, something beyond our individual consciousness and on which we draw to initiate thought and action, both of which are products of the brain and the central nervous system?  

In drawing on a 'cosmic' mind, perhaps we adapt it to our level of awareness and taint it with the karmic effects of greed, anger and delusion, thus appropriating it to ourselves in a sullied form.  If this is so, the "Mind" on which we draw is untainted and, if coupled with a life lived according to the Dhamma, retains its purity.  Translated into intention and action, the pure Mind exercises a therapeutic role in our lives.  In Buddhist teaching, this will ensure a serene life and a good rebirth.

I'm not sure, though, how this differs from the Hindu belief that we are each individually one with the Ultimate Reality, Brahman, as expressed in the wonderful Sanskrit aphorism Tat Tvam Asi, "Thou art That" or "That thou Art".  However, one thing we can be sure of is that we can't point to any one phenomenon and say "Thou art Mind".

Using one of Camerata's interpretations of the meaning of Khan ( [noun]  soul; spirit), it appears to be yet another grasping of the idea of soul, or something which is permanent or immortal, as is the Christian soul, the Atman and so on.

Mankind has always struggled with the fear of his mortality, and has entertained religions which offer something more.

I've learned that there are two camps when it comes to Buddhism:

• One in which followers believe in re birth into many lives until enlightenment takes place (and I must say, enlightenment is a 18th century word and never appeared in the original canonical works of the Buddha).
• The other is where birth death & re birth are moment to moment events, happening so fast, as with frames of a film in a movie, that we are left with the perception of consciousness and a soul.

The Buddha lived during a time when Brahmanism controlled all facets of life, and those who broke its rules could be met with death.

The Buddha spoke in metaphors and packaged his teaching in ways which fitted into thinking of the time.
It allowed the Buddha to eloquently impart his knowledge, but in such a way that those who were deluded could draw from it what they wanted to see.

Terminology such as "birth, death & re birth", easily satisfied  Brahmanist who  understood reincarnation.

He spoke of awakening, or to wake up to the way things really are, not enlightenment.

Awakening from delusion, aversion, and greed.

The Buddha also taught that there was nothing inside.
Our minds are simply processes with the illusion of consciousness.
That doesn't mean we don't exist, but it does mean there is no soul and upon expiration of our body, our mind (memories, volition, consciousness, conditioning) can no longer be supported.

Moment to moment birth, death and re birth supports all of the other teachings, including kharma, impermanence & awakening.

The Buddha was brilliant but he lived in the physical world.
He taught people to free themselves from delusion (Brahmanism and religion), greed, and aversion.

This ties in with Kwan as it appears that those who cling to it, or to such things as Nirvana (A Buddhist heaven in which one is reunited with a universal mind) Christian Heaven, Valhalla, and other such places, appear to be clinging to delusion, aversion & greed.

Edited by rockyysdt, 2011-12-15 13:27:52.

[dutchguest]

At the moment I am reading “The Tibetan book of the dead”. From this I get the impression that the kwan is the “vital force”, residing somewhere in the navel-area and entering and leaving the body through the crown of the head in the bardo-state, the state between death and possible rebirth.

There are many gods and other supernatural beings in the book which might deter some to read the book or take it seriously, but if you perceive them metaphorically, as projections of our mind and not as really existing beings in the outer world, it may make some more sense. I understood that the Tibetans percieve them as well metaphorically as as really existing, just like many Thais see dreams and ghosts in the same time as projections, fantasies and as having a real existence and meaning.


http://www.summum.us.../book1.shtml#p1

“If the person dying be disposed to sleep, or if the sleeping state advances, that should be arrested, and the arteries pressed gently but firmly. Thereby the vital-force will not be able to return from the median-nerve and will be sure to pass out through the Brahmanic aperture. Now the real setting-face-to-face is to be applied”.

[dutchguest]

dutchguest, on 2011-12-24 12:02:46, said:

At the moment I am reading “The Tibetan book of the dead”. From this I get the impression that the kwan is the “vital force”, residing somewhere in the navel-area and entering and leaving the body through the crown of the head in the bardo-state, the state between death and possible rebirth.

There are many gods and other supernatural beings in the book which might deter some to read the book or take it seriously, but if you perceive them metaphorically, as projections of our mind and not as really existing beings in the outer world, it may make some more sense. I understood that the Tibetans percieve them as well metaphorically as as really existing, just like many Thais see dreams and ghosts in the same time as projections, fantasies and as having a real existence and meaning.

I want to add a few remarks:

There is some objective, provable reality in these eastern concepts about the kwan or vital force. We must be careful not to throw away the baby with the bathwater. Our western skeptic, scientific mind has still a rather limited understanding of what is subjective experience and what is objective reality and the relation between the subjective and objective, based on an absolute separation of the two spheres in science, while in an absolute, ultimate sense they are one and the same. Also our dreams and fantasies belong to the objective world of facts and happenings. And, according to Buddhism, nothing happens without a reason.

The Japanese ritual form of suicide, the harakiri, seems to be the fastest way of committing suicide as it is a direct attack on the vital force in the navel area. A knife has to be put in exactly the right place and death will follow immediately.

[Polsci]

dutchguest, on 2011-12-24 12:02:46, said:

At the moment I am reading “The Tibetan book of the dead”. From this I get the impression that the kwan is the “vital force”, residing somewhere in the navel-area and entering and leaving the body through the crown of the head in the bardo-state, the state between death and possible rebirth.

There are many gods and other supernatural beings in the book which might deter some to read the book or take it seriously, but if you perceive them metaphorically, as projections of our mind and not as really existing beings in the outer world, it may make some more sense.

Ah, thanks for bringing up the title of my favorite book! Morbid, yes.

You got it right that Kwan is a vital force and is called such only for the living. It's the vin-yaan (Vinnana in Pali) that permanently leaves the body upon physical death.

[dutchguest]

Polsci, on 2012-01-08 07:40:20, said:

dutchguest, on 2011-12-24 12:02:46, said:

At the moment I am reading “The Tibetan book of the dead”. From this I get the impression that the kwan is the “vital force”, residing somewhere in the navel-area and entering and leaving the body through the crown of the head in the bardo-state, the state between death and possible rebirth.

There are many gods and other supernatural beings in the book which might deter some to read the book or take it seriously, but if you perceive them metaphorically, as projections of our mind and not as really existing beings in the outer world, it may make some more sense.

Ah, thanks for bringing up the title of my favorite book! Morbid, yes.

You got it right that Kwan is a vital force and is called such only for the living. It's the vin-yaan (Vinnana in Pali) that permanently leaves the body upon physical death.

Thanks for your explanation. So if I understand well vinyaan can be seen as the eternal and universal awareness that is temporarely manifesting itself in the human form and is in a certain way the medium through which rebirth and karma are possible. May be my reference to the book of the dead is not so lucky in a topic about “kwan”. I am not so at home in the spiritual world and in the terminology so I have to grope in the dark a bit, but I have a intuitive feeling it is an important book, although beyond my rationality and experience. I also have a feeling such a book could only be written in Tibet at that time and by an enlightened person. It must have been a very sacred and meditative atmosphere and culture. It would be nice if an enlightened person could write a actualized version of the book about his experiences with death and rebirth and the time between and his remembrances of past lives.

[Xangsamhua]

dutchguest, on 2012-01-09 08:46:51, said:

Polsci, on 2012-01-08 07:40:20, said:

You got it right that Kwan is a vital force and is called such only for the living. It's the vin-yaan (Vinnana in Pali) that permanently leaves the body upon physical death.

Thanks for your explanation. So if I understand well vinyaan can be seen as the eternal and universal awareness that is temporarely manifesting itself in the human form and is in a certain way the medium through which rebirth and karma are possible.

Thank you, Dutch Guest, but I wonder.

If (1) "kwan" exists, and (2) is the temporary manifestation in human form of eternal and universal awareness, in what way is it different from "mind"?  

If our individual "minds" are manifestations and adaptations of a universal mind then there seems to be no room for another vital force (other than, perhaps, Schopenhauer's blind and impassionate energizing "Will", which would cancel out both universal mind and spirit).

It may be easier, as per Ockam's razor, to simply dismiss "kwan" as a myth and focus on mind, manifested as mindfulness, wisdom and morality, as the Buddha taught.

[dutchguest]

Xangsamhua, on 2012-01-09 10:56:24, said:

dutchguest, on 2012-01-09 08:46:51, said:

Polsci, on 2012-01-08 07:40:20, said:

You got it right that Kwan is a vital force and is called such only for the living. It's the vin-yaan (Vinnana in Pali) that permanently leaves the body upon physical death.

Thanks for your explanation. So if I understand well vinyaan can be seen as the eternal and universal awareness that is temporarely manifesting itself in the human form and is in a certain way the medium through which rebirth and karma are possible.

Thank you, Dutch Guest, but I wonder.

If (1) "kwan" exists, and (2) is the temporary manifestation in human form of eternal and universal awareness, in what way is it different from "mind"?  

If our individual "minds" are manifestations and adaptations of a universal mind then there seems to be no room for another vital force (other than, perhaps, Schopenhauer's blind and impassionate energizing "Will", which would cancel out both universal mind and spirit).

It may be easier, as per Ockam's razor, to simply dismiss "kwan" as a myth and focus on mind, manifested as mindfulness, wisdom and morality, as the Buddha taught.

Hi,
I see the mind as a rather superficial function in dealing with the outer world, the rational function, located in the brains. On a deeper level we have the heart dealing on the level of feelings. At the deepest level we have the navel area dealing with life on an existential level (to be or not to be). This is supposed to be the kwan or hara area.
With this division I think I am talking about the mind in a narrow sense: in a broader sense, a Buddha-mind encloses all three areas. It is a question of awareness, a sleeper is not (much) aware of the functioning of the deeper areas and lives mainly through the mind (in a narrow sense), a Buddha is aware of all areas, which means he is not a slave of his feelings and instincts. So mind in the broader, Buddha-sense is in a certain way a master over live and dead, has gone beyond life and death, and is the same as the universal, eternal awareness.
As I see it now I would not qualify “kwan” as a myth, but as a very subtile, yet vital and really existing form of energy. The focus on mindfulness, wisdom and morality is just the way to progress from the small mind to a broader mind that should make man more aware of the energies that are moving him.

[Xangsamhua]

dutchguest, on 2012-01-09 14:49:43, said:

Xangsamhua, on 2012-01-09 10:56:24, said:

dutchguest, on 2012-01-09 08:46:51, said:

Polsci, on 2012-01-08 07:40:20, said:

You got it right that Kwan is a vital force and is called such only for the living. It's the vin-yaan (Vinnana in Pali) that permanently leaves the body upon physical death.

Thanks for your explanation. So if I understand well vinyaan can be seen as the eternal and universal awareness that is temporarely manifesting itself in the human form and is in a certain way the medium through which rebirth and karma are possible.

Thank you, Dutch Guest, but I wonder.

If (1) "kwan" exists, and (2) is the temporary manifestation in human form of eternal and universal awareness, in what way is it different from "mind"?  

If our individual "minds" are manifestations and adaptations of a universal mind then there seems to be no room for another vital force (other than, perhaps, Schopenhauer's blind and impassionate energizing "Will", which would cancel out both universal mind and spirit).

It may be easier, as per Ockam's razor, to simply dismiss "kwan" as a myth and focus on mind, manifested as mindfulness, wisdom and morality, as the Buddha taught.

Hi,
I see the mind as a rather superficial function in dealing with the outer world, the rational function, located in the brains. On a deeper level we have the heart dealing on the level of feelings. At the deepest level we have the navel area dealing with life on an existential level (to be or not to be). This is supposed to be the kwan or hara area.
With this division I think I am talking about the mind in a narrow sense: in a broader sense, a Buddha-mind encloses all three areas. It is a question of awareness, a sleeper is not (much) aware of the functioning of the deeper areas and lives mainly through the mind (in a narrow sense), a Buddha is aware of all areas, which means he is not a slave of his feelings and instincts. So mind in the broader, Buddha-sense is in a certain way a master over live and dead, has gone beyond life and death, and is the same as the universal, eternal awareness.
As I see it now I would not qualify “kwan” as a myth, but as a very subtile, yet vital and really existing form of energy. The focus on mindfulness, wisdom and morality is just the way to progress from the small mind to a broader mind that should make man more aware of the energies that are moving him.

Thanks, Dutch Guest.  I'll go away and think about this.

By the way, there's an error in my post above.  I meant to refer to Schopenhauer's "Will" as dispassionate, not impassionate.  Actually, even that is not correct.  The "Will" is more than dispassionate ("not influenced by strong feeling"), it is totally devoid of feeling at all other than an urge to perpetuate itself.

[dutchguest]

dutchguest, on 2012-01-09 14:49:43, said:

As I see it now I would not qualify “kwan” as a myth, but as a very subtile, yet vital and really existing form of energy. The focus on mindfulness, wisdom and morality is just the way to progress from the small mind to a broader mind that should make man more aware of the energies that are moving him.

Leaving the kwan and hara for what they are and trying to translate the eastern conceptions in a western way with which I am more accustomed, I think Freud put us on the right track with his concept of sublimation. Sexual energy can be transformed from the unconscious animalistic reproductive function into more conscious creative forms of expression. This is what distinguishes man from animals. I see sexual energy as the same as vital or life energy, also originating in the navel area, the area where we were connected with our mothers and from where our life originates.

[sabaijai]

Polsci, on 2012-01-08 07:40:20, said:

dutchguest, on 2011-12-24 12:02:46, said:

At the moment I am reading “The Tibetan book of the dead”. From this I get the impression that the kwan is the “vital force”, residing somewhere in the navel-area and entering and leaving the body through the crown of the head in the bardo-state, the state between death and possible rebirth.

There are many gods and other supernatural beings in the book which might deter some to read the book or take it seriously, but if you perceive them metaphorically, as projections of our mind and not as really existing beings in the outer world, it may make some more sense.

Ah, thanks for bringing up the title of my favorite book! Morbid, yes.

You got it right that Kwan is a vital force and is called such only for the living. It's the vin-yaan (Vinnana in Pali) that permanently leaves the body upon physical death.

Kwan is not the same as vinnana (tilde over 2nd n; my thai keyboard has none). The two concepts arose from two separate belief systems.

Kwan comes out of pre-Buddhist Tai animism, and refers to spirit(s) that govern bodily functions. See this post above:

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4237903

Vinnana, on the other hand, is linked to the mind, ie consciousness, eg (from Wiki) 1) as a derivative of the sense bases (āyatana), part of the experientially exhaustive "All" (sabba); (2) as one of the five aggregates (khandha) of clinging (upadana) at the root of suffering (dukkha); and, (3) as one of the twelve causes (nidana) of "Dependent Origination" (paticcasamuppāda) which provides a template for Buddhist notions of kamma, rebirth and release.
The Vinnana Sutta:

At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

[dutchguest]

sabaijai, on 2012-01-10 15:58:58, said:

Polsci, on 2012-01-08 07:40:20, said:

dutchguest, on 2011-12-24 12:02:46, said:

At the moment I am reading “The Tibetan book of the dead”. From this I get the impression that the kwan is the “vital force”, residing somewhere in the navel-area and entering and leaving the body through the crown of the head in the bardo-state, the state between death and possible rebirth.

There are many gods and other supernatural beings in the book which might deter some to read the book or take it seriously, but if you perceive them metaphorically, as projections of our mind and not as really existing beings in the outer world, it may make some more sense.

Ah, thanks for bringing up the title of my favorite book! Morbid, yes.

You got it right that Kwan is a vital force and is called such only for the living. It's the vin-yaan (Vinnana in Pali) that permanently leaves the body upon physical death.

Kwan is not the same as vinnana (tilde over 2nd n; my thai keyboard has none). The two concepts arose from two separate belief systems.

Kwan comes out of pre-Buddhist Tai animism, and refers to spirit(s) that govern bodily functions. See this post above:

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4237903

Vinnana, on the other hand, is linked to the mind, ie consciousness, eg (from Wiki) 1) as a derivative of the sense bases (āyatana), part of the experientially exhaustive "All" (sabba); (2) as one of the five aggregates (khandha) of clinging (upadana) at the root of suffering (dukkha); and, (3) as one of the twelve causes (nidana) of "Dependent Origination" (paticcasamuppāda) which provides a template for Buddhist notions of kamma, rebirth and release.
The Vinnana Sutta:

At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

Thanks, I leave the kwan for what they are.

From a psycho-analytic point of view they are i.m.o. projections of fysical energies that are not recognised as such (energies) but have taken other forms and were endowed with personalised powers.

I thought I could come to some common denominator, essence of all spiritual fenomena, awareness, ghosts etc. But things are becoming to confusing.

[Polsci]

Perhaps it has to do with cognates. Thai language, as you know, borrow heavily from other languages and go through changes culturally, socially, religiously, politically (and add your own adverbs). Current usages and meanings of these Thai cognates don't refer to the same thing as their Sanskrit, Pali, French, English, Chinese, Khmer, Arabic, Malay, Lao words. Unfortunately, the words like "Kwan" and "Vinyan" in Thai don't directly and correctly correspond to all the words in English. Every word requires detailed explanations. Vinyan, for example, can be heard in everyday conversations about dead people that their Vinyan (s) leave bodies. Then, a Vinyan that leaves the body caused by a violent or sudden death becomes a "bad" ghost or Phii that hangs around the place where the unfortunate incident takes place. Despite associating with Hinduism, Viññana (Pali) or Vijñana (Sanskrit) that means consciousness, mind, or awareness has nothing to do with the lowly ghost (Thai animism) in Thai.

But it's then the lost soul or Kwan that temporarily leaves the body due to a traumatic event. Kwan can be called back to a body with the pulse via a Kwan ceremony. Warm bodies have Kwan (s). Dead bodies have Vinyan (s) that can be ceremonially asked to move to a spirit house or an appropriate abode for such being. Or to another rebirth.

Another close term in Thai is Chit-Chai or Jit-Jai (Citta in Pali). Chit (Jit) can briefly travel to a different plane (of existence) at will during a meditation or uncontrollably during a dream state. Out of body experience in English? A contemporary usage of Jai is Jai-Loy (floating heart/mind or wandering thoughts).
Speaking of being spaced out, I gotta get back to the real world.