324 replies to this topic
Posted 2011-05-05 12:54:49
 Mobi, on 2011-05-05 12:19:23, said:
Johnniey, on 2011-05-04 21:05:34, said:
Ok, you don't believe in(or understand) God. Laughing at and calling those who do arrogant is rather childish. Be happy with your non-belief and 'live and let live'.
I find it very strange that many alcoholics drive themselves crazy and get very angry over something(God) that they don't even believe exists.  I used to do the same thing when I was young. I never knew I was sleeping until I woke up. A turning point was when I read a book called, 'a new pair of glasses' by Chuck C.
You can listen to the guy talking here - http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php
Sorry if I have upset you, it wasn't my intention as I certainly respect anyone who has a spiritul belief, of whatever nature as long as it is genuinely held. Anger just doesn't come into it and I am not laughing at anyone. It seems you are a little over-sensitive.
This is a cool, calm debate - I hope...
The 'arrogance' to which I referred, is the 'religious arrogance' of someone who believes that he or she is so important in this universe that there is a God out there who actually cares about him or her as an individual. Maybe the choice of word is injudicious, but to me it expresses how I see these people. It is not meant as an insult, but merely as a state of mind, in the same way as one can talk about someone having 'intellectual arrogance', without the accused considering the term an insult.
Mobi - you haven't upset me. Yes, I am sensitive, but that is irrelevant  However, I don't appreciate some of your writings. Basically what you're saying is that people in AA who have a faith in God are somehow still 'sick' or inferior to yourself who has 'common sense and reasoning'. You say you respect 'these people' but do you really?
Quote Since AA started in a Christian country, it follows that belief in God would become a part of the AA doctrine. For Bhuddists the 5th precept is not to
take any intoxicants.
Interestingly, I have met hundreds of Thai alcoholics who couldn't get sober by practicing the 5th precept or ordaining as a monk. However, as soon as they started believing in a 'higher power' and surrendering to that power, they were able to stay sober - many for years now.
Posted 2011-05-05 12:57:35
Mobi, on 2011-05-05 12:19:23, said:
Johnniey, on 2011-05-04 21:05:34, said:
Ok, you don't believe in(or understand) God. Laughing at and calling those who do arrogant is rather childish. Be happy with your non-belief and 'live and let live'.
I find it very strange that many alcoholics drive themselves crazy and get very angry over something(God) that they don't even believe exists. I used to do the same thing when I was young. I never knew I was sleeping until I woke up. A turning point was when I read a book called, 'a new pair of glasses' by Chuck C.
You can listen to the guy talking here - http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php
Sorry if I have upset you, it wasn't my intention as I certainly respect anyone who has a spiritul belief, of whatever nature as long as it is genuinely held. Anger just doesn't come into it and I am not laughing at anyone. It seems you are a little over-sensitive.
This is a cool, calm debate - I hope...
The 'arrogance' to which I referred, is the 'religious arrogance' of someone who believes that he or she is so important in this universe that there is a God out there who actually cares about him or her as an individual. Maybe the choice of word is injudicious, but to me it expresses how I see these people. It is not meant as an insult, but merely as a state of mind, in the same way as one can talk about someone having 'intellectual arrogance', without the accused considering the term an insult.
Mobi - you haven't upset me. Yes, I am sensitive, but that is irrelevant However, I don't appreciate some of your writings. Basically what you're saying is that people in AA who have a faith in God are somehow still 'sick' or inferior to yourself who has 'common sense and reasoning'. You say you respect 'these people' but do you really?
Quote Since AA started in a Christian country, it follows that belief in God would become a part of the AA doctrine. For Bhuddists the 5th precept is not to
take any intoxicants.
Interestingly, I have met hundreds of Thai alcoholics who couldn't get sober by practicing the 5th precept or ordaining as a monk. However, as soon as they started believing in a 'higher power' and surrendering to that power, they were able to stay sober - many for years now.
Posted 2011-05-05 18:34:32
Mobi, on 2011-05-05 12:23:47, said:
Rick Thai, excellent post and I agree with every word you have said.
It seems almost inconceivable that we can have such an intelligent, well reasoned debate on such a controversial subject without the participants resorting to inflamatory comments and personal abuse.
Amazing! - Maybe God is at work here
I haven't started yet!!!
Posted 2011-05-06 14:12:09
Patsycat, on 2011-05-05 18:34:32, said:
Mobi, on 2011-05-05 12:23:47, said:
Rick Thai, excellent post and I agree with every word you have said.
It seems almost inconceivable that we can have such an intelligent, well reasoned debate on such a controversial subject without the participants resorting to inflamatory comments and personal abuse.
Amazing! - Maybe God is at work here
I haven't started yet!!!
Addiction therapy often cites a spiritual awakening as a prerequisite to curing any harmful addictive behaviours.
Whether that spirituality is via Christianity, Buddhism, Islam or any other spiritual path it is still a necessary step in tackling addictive behaviours according to many experts in this area.
Posted 2011-05-06 15:05:44
Sorry, I meant that as a joke to Mobi who I have been in contact with for years.
I admire and respect Mobi through reading about the ups and downs in his life and am amazed that he has managed to stay sober (again) for so long. And I hope he carries on...
A couple of years ago I also played with the idea of AA. I read up about it and talked about it with friends etc.
Here, in Geneva, they have English language meetings all over town. They even have a ladies only one. I felt, and still feel, that AA was and is not for me. I balk at any sort of "brain washing" situation. Be it in a work, relationship etc. situation.
But, by talking with friends in a similar situation, we have managed to concoct our own little AA meet ups. We feel relaxed and know each other well enough to shout and swear whenever we want.
Yes, we still drink. But I have noticed that we drink less. Myself, I used to get up, have a coffee and then some wine and then some more wine and on and on and on until vodka time. Now, I get up drink coffee,coffee, coffee. At 11.30 am I have my aperitif. One glass of wine does me till 1 pm. Then I potter around doing my thang and do not have any more alcohol until about five. And even then it may be only a couple of glasses.
My friends (who I have known for 20 odd years) bring more help to me than a bunch of strangers at an AA meeting would. It's because we know each other and we know each others histories and life styles.
Good luck everyone!!
Posted 2011-05-06 15:12:09
May I add - there are some "friends" with whom I have cut contact with.
They are the ones who saw Patsy as the "let's go out and get hammered" persona. Which I am not anymore. I now enjoy having a drink and conversation and remembering how I got home.
Shise, I must be getting old!! The other day I went into town to meet some friends at 3pm. I was home and in my jammies at 6.30!!
#32
trisailer
Posted 2011-05-06 15:54:26
" I balk at any sort of "brain washing" situation"
I think that most who wind up on the doorstep of AA are maybe starting to think that a little brainwashing might be just what's needed.
Posted 2011-05-06 19:08:07
ThaiPauly, on 2011-05-04 05:39:31, said:
I am very aware that aa is the most effective of all the different types of self-help suppot groups available around the world and I too would recommend it to anyone who felt they needed to stop drinking, its success rate is about 10% which is really pretty high compared to alternatives. But are the 9 out of 10 that don't stay leave, many of them because they just cannot connect with this Higher Power? I don't know but its a big ask for an athiest to be told that in order to recover you need to find a "God of your understanding" Many people just can't buy into the whole 12 step regime no matter how sick they are, but what's the alternative? Even if you go to a detox centre most of them will send you out to aa meetings as part of their programme.
I have heard at many many AA meetings "It was my best thinking that got me here". Sometimes it is better to turn it over.
Posted 2011-05-06 23:57:38
trisailer, on 2011-05-06 15:54:26, said:
" I balk at any sort of "brain washing" situation"
I think that most who wind up on the doorstep of AA are maybe starting to think that a little brainwashing might be just what's needed.
I agree, but if you have an alternative, softer approach, like i have. Would you not take it? I am not putting AA down, I am just telling my side of my alcohol addiction.
What works for one person may not work for another.
For me, at the moment with my friends is the way to go. Perhaps in a year or two i may seek the AA way to go.
I am lucky to have friends and family (sister, mother) to talk to. My mum understands me perfectly - my dad was an alcoholic.
Posted 2011-05-07 00:04:19
The friend that tried to get me to AA was an overpowering bully.
I refused. He insisted. I kicked him and he punched me....
Not the Zen like entrance i was thinking about. Two black eyes.
That person is on the "non friends" list and I feel relaxed and good in myself.
#36
RickThai
Posted 2011-05-07 00:45:49
I agree with what many of you posted concerning the letting go of some friends. Hard drinking 'friends" can and do exert peer pressure when it comes to drinking. Most of my "alcoholic" friends don't bother to hang out with me anymore, since I don't drink.
That is fine with me. If the only (or overriding) commonality you have with those friends is hanging out in bars or sharing a 12-pack, then (I think) you are better off finding a new set of friends that have more in common with you.
Some of my long-time friends still drink around me, and it doesn't seem to bother them or me. But they were generally friends who were moderate drinkers at best; not extremely heavy drinkers (i.e. alcoholics).
I have found that it is much easier for me to make friends since I stopped drinking, than when I was drinking. I find people more interesting, and as a result, I think people find me more interesting. At any rate, I know more people seem to ask me for my phone number and e-mail address than before (even some good-looking, 20-something COEDs).
Hopefully, everyone can become a better person once they kick their addiction and start turning their attention to the more important things in life.
I seldom even talk about drinking anymore,unless I am on a forum such as this one.
If by sharing my experiences, I can help one alcoholic get a little closer to being alcohol-free, then I will feel blessed.
Chok dee!
RickThai
Posted 2011-05-07 10:16:27
I drank for 30 years and stopped 20 years ago. It has been a long time. I have to think a bit to remember what it was like. I do remember the stories I heard at meetings about why people stopped. I have literally heard thousands of stories and seen thousands of people who were in bad shape when they came in. There were some common threads. Hitting bottom is a common thread. Bottoms are not the same for everyone. Some seem mild but they are the exception. Most are hard. Ego and booze are best friends.
Drinking for a long time made me crazy but I didn't know I was crazy. The booze and my ego teamed up and convinced me I was not crazy.
It takes years of sobriety to undo the years of drinking. My shrink recommended AA because he knew, they knew more about the disease than he did. He took care of the problems he knew more about and told me to seek a sponsor to take care of the alcoholic problems. A male can't have a female sponsor and a female can't have a male sponsor. Of course there are exceptions but that is normally a good rule. And there is sobriety and good sobriety.
A sponsor should be a person who has good sobriety. As a rule if you drink for 20 years it is going to take more than 2 or 3 years to get sane.
Most of this thread is serious but it should be pointed out that AA meetings are fun. I posted that my sponsor told me I should go to meetings until I enjoyed going and then I could stop. It took me about three years to really enjoy meetings. By then I had AA responsibilities and was part of the administration of a group. There are behind the scenes things that have to be done. Buying coffee and snacks, paying rent for the hall, signing receipts for those that are doing court ordered meetings and planning speakers and special meetings. There are good groups and really good groups. And of course there are different personalities. Some you get along with and some you don't. If you don't like the vibe of one meeting go to a different one. They are not all the same.
But I did want to make the point that AA meetings are fun. Not at first but after a few years when you get the hang of the thing. It is common in AA to say, “don't quit before the miracle happens.” It is not an instant cure. It takes years. But that is not a bad thing. What, at first may be fraught with fear and anger turns into joy.
Posted 2011-05-07 10:58:21
Quiting (forever) any addiction, smoking, drinking, drugs, sex, etc, requires a great deal of inner strength and self discipline.
The fact that many people have done it and continue to do it, means that it is possible.
In fact, in accordacne with the AA program it is not self discipline nor self will that is needed to stop using. It is the surrendering to the action. The giving up trying to give up. Admitting that you have been beaten and the belief in a higher power. Any one who tries to abstain through sheer will power or inner strength has not spiritually understood the first step on the AA program.
Like trisailor, I had a year of total abstaince and through relapse understood that the human body is in its most relaxed, receptive, and intelligent state when not under the influence of any mind-altering substances. An alcoholic, or addict is someone who has compulsive thought patterns, when directed towards wholesome activities can produce brilliant results.
Edited by Geekfreaklover, 2011-05-07 11:01:20.
Posted 2011-05-07 11:27:52
Apologies for stating the obvious, but in my case it was easy to ascertain alcohol weakened my resistance to alcohol
I was lucky I found that my wife and children became more important than going out and getting 'blasted' as Patsycat refers. I stopped, as Patsycat, associating with people who had that hard drinking mentality, not easy, some of them are close family members, they found it strange that I didn't enjoy going out and drinking anymore. It was difficult to convince them the change was so great, and of course here is the rub.....they see nothing wrong with their lifestyle......
Posted 2011-05-07 12:44:32
Johnniey, on 2011-05-05 12:57:35, said:
Mobi - you haven't upset me. Yes, I am sensitive, but that is irrelevant However, I don't appreciate some of your writings. Basically what you're saying is that people in AA who have a faith in God are somehow still 'sick' or inferior to yourself who has 'common sense and reasoning'. You say you respect 'these people' but do you really?
I don't don't why it is that you always seem to misunderstand, or dare I say it - twist my words.
Sick? - for sure - whether or not they have a faith in God. Alcoholism is a disease, therefore the sufferers must be sick. Further, many of them admit to having a range of other sicknesses, most commonly, one or other form of depression.
My contention is that these sicknesses, in which I am a fellow sufferer, leads some to grasp at spirituality as a way to save them from their alcohol addiction. I do not consider myself 'superior' to them, and in many ways I envy them their beliefs and peace of mind - I wish that I too could share their spirituality.
Yes, my powers of reasoning and my 'common sense' have convinced me that there is no God out there for me, but I am not trying to say that because of this I am in some way superior - different maybe, but not superior.
You really seem to be bothered by my point of view - is it because that deep down you question your own belief?
I detest all organised religions with a purple passion, as they are all full of lies, hypocrisy, avarice, hate, intolerance, power seekers and control freaks; but a personal belief in a 'Higher Power'? Why not? Good luck to them and respect to them. 
Posted 2011-05-07 13:00:04
Patsycat, on 2011-05-06 23:57:38, said:
For me, at the moment with my friends is the way to go. Perhaps in a year or two i may seek the AA way to go.
I am lucky to have friends and family (sister, mother) to talk to. My mum understands me perfectly - my dad was an alcoholic.
Hi Patsy, good to see you posting here.
Do I detect in that last sentence a tacit admittance that you are an alcoholic? If I may say so, that's a bit of a departure from your previous position. I am not gloating, I am just glad and thankful that you can finally see yourself for what you clearly are.
There are many kinds of alcoholics Patsy, and they are not all spewing their guts out on street corners and drinking meths from brown paper bags..... but you know all that....
You also know that your 'gently, gently' approach and your endless attempts at 'controlled drinking' always end in failure. Friends who drink regularly will never really help you with your problem. They are either alcoholics themselves, in which case they, like you, are in denial, or they are 'controlled drinkers', in which case they cannot really understand the problems of an alcoholic.
At the very least, if you do go to AA, you might make some new, sober friends who will understand your problems so much better and be able to advise you in good practical ways how to change your life around.
But no one knows more than I that this is a personal decision and nobody can make it for you. It will come, if at all, in your own good time.
Good luck, my love.... 
Posted 2011-05-07 14:39:21
Mobi, on 2011-05-07 12:44:32, said:
Johnniey, on 2011-05-05 12:57:35, said:
Mobi - you haven't upset me. Yes, I am sensitive, but that is irrelevant However, I don't appreciate some of your writings. Basically what you're saying is that people in AA who have a faith in God are somehow still 'sick' or inferior to yourself who has 'common sense and reasoning'. You say you respect 'these people' but do you really?
I don't don't why it is that you always seem to misunderstand, or dare I say it - twist my words.
Sick? - for sure - whether or not they have a faith in God. Alcoholism is a disease, therefore the sufferers must be sick. Further, many of them admit to having a range of other sicknesses, most commonly, one or other form of depression.
My contention is that these sicknesses, in which I am a fellow sufferer, leads some to grasp at spirituality as a way to save them from their alcohol addiction. I do not consider myself 'superior' to them, and in many ways I envy them their beliefs and peace of mind - I wish that I too could share their spirituality.
Yes, my powers of reasoning and my 'common sense' have convinced me that there is no God out there for me, but I am not trying to say that because of this I am in some way superior - different maybe, but not superior.
You really seem to be bothered by my point of view - is it because that deep down you question your own belief?
I detest all organised religions with a purple passion, as they are all full of lies, hypocrisy, avarice, hate, intolerance, power seekers and control freaks; but a personal belief in a 'Higher Power'? Why not? Good luck to them and respect to them.
It's a choice many alcoholics I've known have had - to live a life based on spiritual principles or die an alcoholic death. Sadly, a few have chosen the latter.
#43
trisailer
Posted 2011-05-07 15:25:46
"I detest all organised religions with a purple passion"
The AA Preamble:
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.
Where does it say it's an "orgainized religion" Mobi?
I think that many people are actually afraid that they might get better or be transformed. They hold on to the approach they've had for life even though they know that it's not working. What other possible explaination could there be for a person to resist trying a process that has worked for so many millions. The danger for you is not organised religion the danger for you is you.
Posted 2011-05-07 18:40:11
Seems odd to read some things here. AA is the most successful way to stop drinking in our world today. There simply isn't a better way available. Every alcoholic, of course, as part of his or her disease thinks there is. A part of AA is going to meetings. Since there is no cure meetings are part of the treatment and the need to attend them does not stop. Perhaps the frequency gets less but it never ceases.
It is one of the dreams of the alcoholic to be able to drink moderately. It is one of those things, it does not work. It is not just me with this opinion. Go to any one of the 100,000 AA meetings world wide and ask them. There a couple million people going to 100,000 different AA meetings all over the world who think meetings are necessary and total abstinence is the only sure way to stay sober. Makes you stop and think.
Posted 2011-05-07 19:56:12
trisailer, on 2011-05-07 15:25:46, said:
"I detest all organised religions with a purple passion"
Where does it say it's an "orgainized religion" Mobi?
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I never said it did. I was not attacking AA.
I was making a general comment about spirituality and religion. I am fully aware that AA does not endorse any organised religions. If I did, given my abhorrence to them, I would never recommend alcoholics to go to AA meetings, now would I?
So sorry, if once again someone has taken my comments as some sort of attack on themselves, or AA.
We are a sensitive bunch aren't we....
Peace and sobriety....
#46
trisailer
Posted 2011-05-07 20:45:38
Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought your objection (and many others) to committing to the AA program was your resistance to "organized religion". It is quite common and it was my main reason for staying uncommitted for so long. I apologise for projecting it onto you.
I didn't feel like I was being attacked, I was only responding to your writings and your history of issues with alcohol. I'm thinking that you do want to stop drinking so I don't understand your resistance to a full committment to the program. By full committment I mean at least 4 meetings a week and a sponser who you make a committment to.
I've read some of your blog and I can't see that your way is working very well. It is a 12 step progran but the only real necessary step is the 1st one.
I remember when I was early in recovery and not getting the whole spritual thing I kept asking people "when am I going to get the spritual thing" they replied don't worry, you don't get it it gets you. When your ready. I knew a few people who admitted that they were still on the 1st step after years and that's ok.
I'm going to withdraw from this because I'm hardly the proper person to represent AA. I spent 2 years working the program back in 1991 and since that time I pretty much lost interest in alcohol. I occaisionly have a glass of wine or a beer but never could get to my previous levels. Don't like the buzz anymore.
I do wish you luck. We have more in common than you can imagine.
Posted 2011-05-07 21:06:09
That was an interesting 1st post until the stuff about god came into the article. I skipped that part and continued skimming over some other posts. I drank everyday for about 15 years until new year which just passed. I was in a motorcycle accident and i hit and gave a nasty leg injury to another motorcyclist. I came away practically unscathed. It was then that i realised that my drinking was in fact affecting everyone around me and 2 days later i stopped. Was it divine intervention? I've no idea, but something made me realise that if i continued the way i was going, the next time it would be much worse. Maybe it was just common sense. I can relate to a lot of the symptoms in the first post too. Religion helps a lot of people get through different struggles in their life, but it's not my thing. I do try to practice being a good person though, even more so now that i have stopped drinking. I think that is mostly down to having 2 loving parents with good morals and family values.
Posted 2011-05-10 18:09:25
As we get older we get wiser.
The over the top drinking i was doing 20 years ago!!! I'm surprised I am still alive.
Now, with my 2 or three glasses of wine a day. I feel good. Not drunk not falling over breaking things.
Relaxed.
I admit to an addiction to alcohol to all and sundry.
Smokie - I also gave up the cocaine from one day to the next. Missed it a bit but afterwards nada. Booze is more difficult because you don't have to do a dodgy deal to get it!!!
Posted 2011-05-11 16:40:44
Patsycat, on 2011-05-10 18:09:25, said:
As we get older we get wiser.
The over the top drinking i was doing 20 years ago!!! I'm surprised I am still alive.
Now, with my 2 or three glasses of wine a day. I feel good. Not drunk not falling over breaking things.
Relaxed.
I admit to an addiction to alcohol to all and sundry.
Smokie - I also gave up the cocaine from one day to the next. Missed it a bit but afterwards nada. Booze is more difficult because you don't have to do a dodgy deal to get it!!!
Or when watching a cookery programme last night seeing them chopping up a few lines. They were however pouring out the vino.....got my attention that did..... 
Posted 2011-05-11 17:45:04
Have you ever watched any Anthony Bourdain vids?? Jeez, that man eats and drinks all sorts... And still remains sexy.
Back on topic -
Through this thread I have taken the big decision to find an AA meeting here in Geneva.
I shall go and give it a try - If i like i like, if i don't i won't.
I might even see some people that i know down there.
I shall report back.
By the way, thank you Graham.
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