Hi Clive (Boeing)
I suppose it all depends upon what the meaning of philco'sgross is.
Gross received before tappers split, or (often the misconception) whats left in their hand., which is what i had presumed.
Boeing if you are only getting .33kg per month over the yearthat's considerably lower than the figures you should be achieving. How old are your trees ?
I find that many will look at it on a monthly basis when itshould only be calculated over a 12 month period.
Some of these government stats are flawed in that they lookat the countries rubber output and divide it by the number of rai put torubber. Bearing in mind that includesrubber rai from 1-7 years, and other non or poorly producing rubber, it givesflawed figures and should never be relied upon.
Perhaps there are other producers out there who also have some annual records that will determine their kg per tree over the year, if so, it would be nice to compare yields, so that everyone may be able to benefit from increasing their yield ?
4
Rubber Trees
Started by Lickey, 2011-05-11 01:32
#52
scotbeve
Super Member Posted 2011-06-02 19:47:25
In my humble opinion, the statement by Tothemark, "Its not about the $ received its all about the Kg's." is exactly to the mark. I am not sure however that his maths are the same as mine. Philo's "600 8yo was giving THB 20000 Gross pr/mnt. for 8 mnt." was just that. A gross amount including tappers percentage, and it was on last years prices. So my calculator tells me that THB 20,000 divided by last years average price of THB100/kg = 200kg for 600 trees per month. This equates to 0.33 kg/tree/month, using your preferred calculation. This in turn is 200 kg/rai/year using my, and the Governments preferred calculation. This incidentally is exactly the same as the THB 100,000 per 10 rai quoted by fatfather today. Remember that the governments national average is 289 kg/rai/year. Clive Clive, Thanks for that.... I suppose I'll find slight variances of monetary gains per annum but my (conservative) figures are close to that. Plenty of variables = plenty of estimates (or a few different spreadsheets). #53
Boeing757
Member Posted 2011-06-02 20:48:50
Tothemark. Thank you for your reply.
Firstly, I am certainly not an expert. My 49 rai are only half way through their 7 year gestation period. The .33 kg/tree/month figure was not mine, but my attempt to convert Philo's figures into your preferred calculation. The thing I certainly agree with is a desire to convert figures into meaningful calculations we can all understand. There are many statements around which, despite the best intentions are really meaningless as not enough facts are included. People often asume that you know that a figure is per year or per tree or, as we have just proven Gross or Net. Scotbeve. I agree that we should keep things conservative. I stated some time ago that I would only consider 300kg/rai/year, 100baht/kg and 50/50 split with tappers. I see no good reason why I should change my mind just now. Then in 3-4 years time, I may be pleasantly supprised. Keep this post going. I love it! Clive #54
tothemark
Advanced Member Posted 2011-06-02 20:55:59
In my humble opinion, the statement by Tothemark, "Its not about the $ received its all about the Kg's." is exactly to the mark. I am not sure however that his maths are the same as mine. Philo's "600 8yo was giving THB 20000 Gross pr/mnt. for 8 mnt." was just that. A gross amount including tappers percentage, and it was on last years prices. So my calculator tells me that THB 20,000 divided by last years average price of THB100/kg = 200kg for 600 trees per month. This equates to 0.33 kg/tree/month, using your preferred calculation. This in turn is 200 kg/rai/year using my, and the Governments preferred calculation. This incidentally is exactly the same as the THB 100,000 per 10 rai quoted by fatfather today. Remember that the governments national average is 289 kg/rai/year. Clive Clive, Thanks for that.... I suppose I'll find slight variances of monetary gains per annum but my (conservative) figures are close to that. Plenty of variables = plenty of estimates (or a few different spreadsheets). Clive and Scot, Im going to pull my hair out if i had any !  I appreciate where you guys are coming from and I understand that you are both not tapping for rubber as yet but soon will be. But please, there are some misconceptions that you are working too. Clive, the figure you were quoting as 100bht per kg in 2010 is for mats not cup rubber and you should base your average price for 2010 at around 55bht per kilo on cup rubber for 2010. http://www.irco.biz/...c-index.php?st= I did make the mistake of using this years price as opposed to 2010 to do my calculation and I may have also misinterpreted that Philco's gross was before paying the tappers. However, the result remains the same but with a different calculation. 420kg from 600 trees at 55bht is 22,600bht in the month GROSS. (based upon .73kg per tree) We get over 1kg per tree per month on our farm and my extended family who have younger rubber, get around .7 to .8kg per month. It isnt some mythical government spouted figure, it is fact. Now if Jim could confirm some yields from his area perhaps that could put this anomaly to bed........  Finally, remember that these yields are based on a twelve month period and not any given month, which may vary considerably. Edited by tothemark, 2011-06-02 21:02:12. #55
Boeing757
Member Posted 2011-06-02 21:41:12
Please don't pull your hair out on account of me!
I certainly appreciate your reply and accept it from a far more experienced source than me. You are absolutely correct that my assumption was for the average 2010 mat price. As I mentioned previously, there is often not enough information to go by, and guesses have to be made. You will notice that there is no mention if mats or key yang were made. As "for putting this to bed", I don't think so. It is for just this kind of reaction we are all here. Keep it coming! Clive #56
scotbeve
Super Member Posted 2011-06-02 23:06:57
In my humble opinion, the statement by Tothemark, "Its not about the $ received its all about the Kg's." is exactly to the mark. I am not sure however that his maths are the same as mine. Philo's "600 8yo was giving THB 20000 Gross pr/mnt. for 8 mnt." was just that. A gross amount including tappers percentage, and it was on last years prices. So my calculator tells me that THB 20,000 divided by last years average price of THB100/kg = 200kg for 600 trees per month. This equates to 0.33 kg/tree/month, using your preferred calculation. This in turn is 200 kg/rai/year using my, and the Governments preferred calculation. This incidentally is exactly the same as the THB 100,000 per 10 rai quoted by fatfather today. Remember that the governments national average is 289 kg/rai/year. Clive Clive, Thanks for that.... I suppose I'll find slight variances of monetary gains per annum but my (conservative) figures are close to that. Plenty of variables = plenty of estimates (or a few different spreadsheets). Clive and Scot, Im going to pull my hair out if i had any ! I appreciate where you guys are coming from and I understand that you are both not tapping for rubber as yet but soon will be. But please, there are some misconceptions that you are working too. Clive, the figure you were quoting as 100bht per kg in 2010 is for mats not cup rubber and you should base your average price for 2010 at around 55bht per kilo on cup rubber for 2010. http://www.irco.biz/...c-index.php?st= I did make the mistake of using this years price as opposed to 2010 to do my calculation and I may have also misinterpreted that Philco's gross was before paying the tappers. However, the result remains the same but with a different calculation. 420kg from 600 trees at 55bht is 22,600bht in the month GROSS. (based upon .73kg per tree) We get over 1kg per tree per month on our farm and my extended family who have younger rubber, get around .7 to .8kg per month. It isnt some mythical government spouted figure, it is fact. Now if Jim could confirm some yields from his area perhaps that could put this anomaly to bed........ Finally, remember that these yields are based on a twelve month period and not any given month, which may vary considerably. I'm basing mine on USS 3 w/5% moisture - I wouldn't want to go any other way - but don't want to RSS! Start tapping at 1.5 m with a 50cm girth or better and definitely after 7 yrs.Prices will always be difficult to predict - tho' my insight into the oil & gas sector helps a bit. Edited by scotbeve, 2011-06-02 23:16:58. #57
philo
Senior Member Posted 2011-06-03 12:36:30
TY all that have done the math. What I thought I saw was a misproportion:
600 8yo was giving THB 20000 Gross pr/mnt. for 8 mnts 500 7yo was giving THB 8000 Gross pr/mnt. for 8 mnts The two plots similar - only 3 kms apart, same village, same soil, same treatment, saplings, fertilizer, water .... Info about 1st plot from old owners - I just bought it for my children. Receipts. Info about 2nd plot from my wife - no receipts. I will wait till the end of the month - go there and talk to people with plots adjacent to the two plots, and ask them what their production is. I have given her the house, two cars, the children and monthly cash - against honesty. #58
englishinsiam
Senior Member Posted 2011-06-03 14:01:27
I add my congrats to you Jim on your humorous and informative primer... ..wifey and in laws have just this week opened up another 600+ trees and they seem to have started at the 800 to one metre level on 45+ cm trees...growth rate seems all over the map in some rows unfortunately...(we bought this part of the farm with these trees at about 3yo). Wifey et al tapped 3 on 1 off on the mature trees on another part of the farm..now doing the same on new ones. On the subject of weed control , I read on an Indian state website that clear cut and removal of all weeds/grass is not recommended ( natural moisture retention seemed to be the factor along with erosion)...during all our floods down here thousands of trees on flat land simply fell over due to ground turning to treacle on land with little or no ground cover. We have sprayed Glyphosphate to get rid of the brush type weeds and now mostly have just that vicious leg cutting grass which we cut every three months or so...seems to grow up behind you as you walk the line though...all that grass mulch has got to be good for the trees methinks. Interestingly some areas just grow some low pretty purple flowered weeds which turn your hands black after you pull a rai or so..lol Time now to throw some more baht on the ground in the form of fertiliser I guess.... May all your cups runneth over.. cheers david The Purple flowered weeds are Butterfly Pea and the flowers are traditionally used by Thai's to combat Hairloss. You crush the flowers into a mulch and rub it on your head.My wifes dad had a problem about 20 years ago and went around with it on his head all the time. He now has a good head of hair, maybe you can sell them to baldies :-) #59
tothemark
Advanced Member Posted 2011-06-03 15:55:37
TY all that have done the math. What I thought I saw was a misproportion: 600 8yo was giving THB 20000 Gross pr/mnt. for 8 mnts 500 7yo was giving THB 8000 Gross pr/mnt. for 8 mnts The two plots similar - only 3 kms apart, same village, same soil, same treatment, saplings, fertilizer, water .... Info about 1st plot from old owners - I just bought it for my children. Receipts. Info about 2nd plot from my wife - no receipts. I will wait till the end of the month - go there and talk to people with plots adjacent to the two plots, and ask them what their production is. I have given her the house, two cars, the children and monthly cash - against honesty. Hi Philo, Glad to see you came back. I thought for a moment you had fallen in to a pit of despair, just remember the only way is up  Looking at your info I would confidently say that the 500 trees should be giving you about 16000 per month. This is assuming they are all being tapped. Who is doing the tapping of each set of trees and what is their cut,how is the fertiliser paid for ? Could there perhaps, be something lost in translation as to your wifes explanation ? However, the other point to consider is that dont rely on 8 months as the exact period you can tap. Its not as if everyones jets off to Switzerland for four months waiting for the tapping season to start again. You will find some will tap non stop if they can (finances demand it) and some rainy months you can still tap some days. Its going to be difficult for you as an absentee landlord and again perhaps a wife with animosity. But work to between .7 and .8 per kilo per tree as the entire 12 month period and you wont be far off the actual figures at the end of the year. Good luck #60
thoongfoned
Advanced Member Posted 2011-06-03 16:49:12
afew years ago a thai guy said to me on the subject of how much money will the trees bring in is to think that every tree will give you 1 baht per day of its working life : 500 trees should return 500 bahts every day??? yet to see the results but to me dont sound to far off the mark. after the ten/eleven year mark the trees should be in their prime and nearly double output for a good few years, so maybe 2 baht + a tree.<br><br>happy tapping.
#61
philo
Senior Member Posted 2011-06-04 10:42:07
Thanks again. I will always try to think about a 'norm' tree - average soil, fertilizer, treatment, water, tapping skills etc - as if I go out in the Nong Khai wilderness and pick a tree that on DateInAsia would be rated Average. All I need to know is the age. And I will think in gross production.
I have now read the entire thread (is the good Mr. Collister the same man that has videos on youtube?). Anyway - would like to try again with some uploaded material (source: Wiki. Layer 4 on the photo is called 'phloem' and gives nutrition to the tree by capillar forces, layer 5 for a rubber three is the latex vessels that are to be cut ortogonally to get the most latex, and layer 6 and 7 are the bark and the skin. In total a mm or so. Cutting too deep damages the tree's nutrition source. As an experiment: Take one tree, cut 2-3 mms around the circumference, and it will die. The video shows these latex vessels and how they form a helix - hence why the cuts are made with an angle. Attached Files
#62
philo
Senior Member Posted 2011-06-04 13:45:01
A few remarks/requests please:
1. In the post above I forgot to say cut 2-3 mms in a YOUNG tree. 2. By 'gross' I mean the produce of the tree as 'dried cups' - before any split or mat making or ... (I understand that even this concept is difficult, in my ex wife's village some people have to go faaar away to sell their rubber because they used to 'increase' the produce by putting stones in the cups). 3. Could a mod please delete post # 46. I must have been more drunk than usual, since I didn't even manage to edit it down to zero. Thanks. #63
Boeing757
Member Posted 2011-06-06 08:04:16
With regards to the last few posts, I would like to turn this post around to a subject that perplexes me somewhat, and i am not trying to be smart. I really do not understand. Maybe someone will enlighten me.
I have mentioned that last years average RSS 3 price was about THB100/Kg. (Actually it was THB 116.08) Tothemark has now revealed that last years average cup rubber price was THB 55/Kg. A fact I can accept completely. WHY? For the added extra work and equipment needed, why are farmers making cup rubber when they could double their income by making sheets? Clive #64
Bosse137
Senior Member Posted 2011-06-06 09:16:39
Two things: 1. I have read,that although fertilises are nesecery and importent for the trees,and therefore also for the output of liquid,they do not,in the short perspectiv,enhance the production of it.Is this correct? Like if you give fertilisers to strawberries,the leaves will benefit,but less fruit. 2. Why do people pay 200 baht/hour to tappers?! I have 800 trees and the tapper cuts them in 6 hours.If I paid 40-50%,he would get about 1600-2000 baht. Now,I have done some cutting myself,and I found it to be not so hard work and working nighttime,when there is no burning sunshine but cool weather,is different from,let`s say,planting rice or cutting sugarcain,,something that pays far less.OK,you can say,that cutting rubber takes more skill then planting rice,but whatever work you compare to,rubbercutting pays a lot more.By the way,when I say "not so hard work",I can add,that I am 68 years old with no previous experience of this work,so my point is,if I do not find it hard,why would a younger ,experienced person do that...
#65
Bosse137
Senior Member Posted 2011-06-06 09:23:10
The answer to why farmers go on with cup-rubber for about half the price is,that making sheets takes away appr.half the weight,which means,the final revenu will be the same,but making sheets takes a lot of more work plus the problem with storing them.
#66
Bosse137
Senior Member Posted 2011-06-06 09:23:54
The answer to why farmers go on with cup-rubber for about half the price is,that making sheets takes away appr.half the weight,which means,the final revenu will be the same,but making sheets takes a lot of more work plus the problem with storing them.
#67
Bosse137
Senior Member Posted 2011-06-06 09:25:02
The answer to why farmers go on with cup-rubber for about half the price is,that making sheets takes away appr.half the weight,which means,the final revenu will be the same,but making sheets takes a lot of more work plus the problem with storing them.
#68
scotbeve
Super Member Posted 2011-06-06 10:09:13
Friday's FOB prices (cut 20% to 25% of this for your "at the gate" prices):
http://www.thainr.co...detail=pr-local http://www.irco.biz/Cprices-th.php http://rubbermarketn...et/rubber-thai/ Note that cup rubber is not half the price (FOB) of USS 3 (5% moisture). #69
Bosse137
Senior Member Posted 2011-06-06 11:11:11
Two things: 1. I have read,that although fertilises are nesecery and importent for the trees,and therefore also for the output of liquid,they do not,in the short perspectiv,enhance the production of it.Is this correct? Like if you give fertilisers to strawberries,the leaves will benefit,but less fruit. 2. Why do people pay 200 baht/hour to tappers?! I have 800 trees and the tapper cuts them in 6 hours.If I paid 40-50%,he would get about 1600-2000 baht. Now,I have done some cutting myself,and I found it to be not so hard work and working nighttime,when there is no burning sunshine but cool weather,is different from,let`s say,planting rice or cutting sugarcain,,something that pays far less.OK,you can say,that cutting rubber takes more skill then planting rice,but whatever work you compare to,rubbercutting pays a lot more.By the way,when I say "not so hard work",I can add,that I am 68 years old with no previous experience of this work,so my point is,if I do not find it hard,why would a younger ,experienced person do that... I better correct myself before somebody else does it;It`s more like 300 Baht/hour.And the six hours is the time I need for the work.My stepson does it in 3 hours,which would amount to 600Baht/hour! Another thing,the percent is on the selligprice.I do not no of any other labourwork,where this is the case (I could be wrong).If you harvest corn,rice,sugarcain,whatever,you do not get paid depending on the sellingprice.About quantity,reasonably skilled tappers will have about the same amount in kilos.In other words,wether the selling price is high or low,the work is exactly the same and should therefore be paid the same amount.Some people pay per tree,eg 50 satang/tree,which is more logic.But of course,up to anyone to pay what he wants,I`m just curious as to why.... By the way,sorry for the tripple-post... #70
scotbeve
Super Member Posted 2011-06-06 11:33:21
Bosse,
It seems to me that profit sharing is the only way to go as far as being a foreigner here. I've left my brother-in-law in charge of all my farms for the past 7 years and he's done a great job. Yes, he is very trustworthy... This has included jobbing out all our farm machinery (close to 20 yrs. now...)... They're all well maintained and as busy as feasibly possible. Next year, when tapping starts, he'll get exactly 50% profit - tho' first year won't be too much. My brother-in-law has hired permanently 6 or 7 villagers to tap our plantations and after they have had a trial period under the supervision of a well-experienced tapper (govt. supplied for free BTW), they will be on payroll but not for only tapping. We will share the cost of the tappers, tools/lights/cups, etc., fuel costs, machinery, etc. in other words, everything. #71
Bosse137
Senior Member Posted 2011-06-06 13:37:19
Bosse, It seems to me that profit sharing is the only way to go as far as being a foreigner here. I've left my brother-in-law in charge of all my farms for the past 7 years and he's done a great job. Yes, he is very trustworthy... This has included jobbing out all our farm machinery (close to 20 yrs. now...)... They're all well maintained and as busy as feasibly possible. Next year, when tapping starts, he'll get exactly 50% profit - tho' first year won't be too much. My brother-in-law has hired permanently 6 or 7 villagers to tap our plantations and after they have had a trial period under the supervision of a well-experienced tapper (govt. supplied for free BTW), they will be on payroll but not for only tapping. We will share the cost of the tappers, tools/lights/cups, etc., fuel costs, machinery, etc. in other words, everything. #72
jamescollister
Senior Member Posted 2011-06-06 13:41:56
Hi all
been off line for awhile, so have missed a bit . Anyway will toss my 2 bits worth in on a few questions. Yes I am the guy on you tube. Cup rubber does not fetch the same price as sheet, dry cup is roughly half the price of dry sheet. Thais do cup because it is easy, less work and no need for machines and smokers, A Thai farmer can tap his trees go back to sleep, tend his rice or what ever and leave the rubber in the cup. When the cup is full he just throws it on the ground to let it dry. Then one day he will go pick it up and sell. The income question, don't know how many times over the years this has been covered and I don't have an answer, I have over the years turned somewhat Thai and have long given up on keeping numbers and figures. I don;t even know how many trees we are tapping. All I can go by is how much cash is sitting on the table once a month when we sell. As last season was really our first year of tapping and the trees need time to lean to give up their latex. I know that the better trees produced around 5 kilos of RSS last season, how much improvement this year time will tell. You can not work the numbers on a tree 'day, month, kilo etc. You have to do it on a year by year base and remove your costs. Not much use if your trees are super producers and making rubber like it is going out of fashion if you have to pay out more than they earn. Remember you may be on 50 % with your tappers, but they will not be paying half the pickup truck, tractor or rolling machines costs. That's out of your pocket. It all adds up and you need to spend money to make money. At the end of the day you may have lost money. Some one mentioned why not just hire tappers on a day wage, won't work, to start you would also need to hire grass cutters and people to fertilise and take general care of your plantation. Add to this if you hire a day man and he goes out to tap and the rain starts you will still have to pay him and you will have earned nothing. Last year one month during the rains we got only 5 tapping day, but the tappers went out every night that it wasn't raining just encase it stayed dry. Jim #73
scotbeve
Super Member Posted 2011-06-06 13:55:16
Hi all been off line for awhile, so have missed a bit . Anyway will toss my 2 bits worth in on a few questions. Yes I am the guy on you tube. Cup rubber does not fetch the same price as sheet, dry cup is roughly half the price of dry sheet. Thais do cup because it is easy, less work and no need for machines and smokers, A Thai farmer can tap his trees go back to sleep, tend his rice or what ever and leave the rubber in the cup. When the cup is full he just throws it on the ground to let it dry. Then one day he will go pick it up and sell. The income question, don't know how many times over the years this has been covered and I don't have an answer, I have over the years turned somewhat Thai and have long given up on keeping numbers and figures. I don;t even know how many trees we are tapping. All I can go by is how much cash is sitting on the table once a month when we sell. As last season was really our first year of tapping and the trees need time to lean to give up their latex. I know that the better trees produced around 5 kilos of RSS last season, how much improvement this year time will tell. You can not work the numbers on a tree 'day, month, kilo etc. You have to do it on a year by year base and remove your costs. Not much use if your trees are super producers and making rubber like it is going out of fashion if you have to pay out more than they earn. Remember you may be on 50 % with your tappers, but they will not be paying half the pickup truck, tractor or rolling machines costs. That's out of your pocket. It all adds up and you need to spend money to make money. At the end of the day you may have lost money. Some one mentioned why not just hire tappers on a day wage, won't work, to start you would also need to hire grass cutters and people to fertilise and take general care of your plantation. Add to this if you hire a day man and he goes out to tap and the rain starts you will still have to pay him and you will have earned nothing. Last year one month during the rains we got only 5 tapping day, but the tappers went out every night that it wasn't raining just encase it stayed dry. Jim Jim, Like most family businesses in the LOS, one picks the most trustworthy member (yes, folks - there are some indeed...) and puts him / her in charge of a "project" - especially when the owner is in "remote" mode. I look at it as Jim does. Every different plantation will be just that - different numbers. An annual nett profit is the only way to look at it. We can estimate all we want or use numbers from producing rubber plantations for a VERY ROUGH figure. But in the end, price fluctuations, weather, and plantation maintenance will dictate you nett result. Another point I would like to make is that just growing one product will get one in trouble as 10's of thousands of Thai farmers have been in the past. Be diversified - we have 5 products, one being rubber which is only costing us money at the moment... but the other 4 products go up n' down as markets dictate. #74
chang35baht
Senior Member Posted 2011-06-06 15:19:37
Cup lump 69 baht/kilo yesterday in Chiang Rai.
#75
scotbeve
Super Member Posted 2011-06-06 15:28:16
Cup lump 69 baht/kilo yesterday in Chiang Rai. Thanks Chang! Any word on USS prices in CR? BTW - Would you happen to know the most recent news about the Chiang Saen "collection point" of rubber for export " to the north"? My S - I - L is involved with the "co-op" for the north at the Amphur level and so far, everything sounds upbeat.... |
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