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[ripley]

There is much discussion about living the Condo Life, much of which requires reference to Thai Condo Law. It's easy to use the incorrect term, causing confusion. Here are some commonly confused:

AGM = Annual General Meeting

EGM = Extraordinary General Meeting (called if an AGM doesn't have a quorum or if 20% of Owners request one)

Manager = Person hired to implement management tasks

Juristic Person Manager (JPM) = Person elected at an AGM to check all official paperwork for legality and to sign required documents submitted in the name of the owners. The "hand" of the Owners, if you will. This person has to have some legal qualifications and must be a Thai citizen.

Juristic Person = The Owners and their building as an entity

Committee = Sometimes referred to as "Board". A group of not less than 3, not more than 9 owners elected by the owners at an AGM to serve a 2 year term of office

Regulations = Rules for your individual condo which do not conflict with Thai Condo Law, written and approved by a vote at either an AGM or EGM

Maintenance Fund = An annual assessment based on the square meterage of your ownership. This amount is used to pay staff, make repairs and keep the building in peak condition. The amount of fee per ownership ratio may be altered only by an AGM or EGM and voted in by a percentage of Owners specified in Condo Law.

Sinking Fund =  A one-time assessment maintained intact to be used only for building emergencies

Can we agree that these definitions are correct? They are the ones I've checked out with lawyers over the years.

There are some terms I'm still not certain of, one of which is "Competent Official". Anyone know that one?  I don't know how the Sinking Fund is accessed, whether that requires an AGM or EGM, or what the requirements are for an increase. Anyone know?

Anymore verified terms we might need?

[Delight]

  This post is a very good initiative from Ripley.

  

  Just a few points.

  

  EGM

  The name of  the follow- on meeting, from either a AGM or an EGM that initially failed  to achieve the 25% quorum ,remains unchanged .An AGM will always be an AGM since by law certain topics must feature on the agenda of a AGM.

  

  Sinking  fund.

  The Act is very quiet about Sinking funds.

  

  My subjective position is that I see it for larger maintenance work –typically the painting of the building –the replacement of the   lift rope etc.etc.

  This will unlikely be a one –time request for cash from the co –owners-given the life span of the building.

  Prudent Management will  ,as you say, keep some reserves aside for the un –foreseen

  The suggestion as to 'How Much ' will be a decision for the committee.

  The proposal from the committee has to be approved by the co owners  at  an  AGM /EGM by a simple majority of the voting allocations.

  

  

  Competent official:

  

  The Act  says :

  

  'Official' means the state officer appointed by the Ministry to enforce this act  .

  

  In practice this is the Land Office.

  

  But the phrasing suggests to me that the Ministry have given themselves plenty of scope   for alternative options.

  

  Juristic  Person.

   I would add the following to your definition.

  

  An   entity   which  shields  its shareholders from personal  liability.

[ripley]

Should have mentioned in definition of "Committee":

Committee = Sometimes referred to as  "Board". A group of not less than 3, not more than 9 owners elected by  the owners at an AGM to serve as their representatives in all matters of                      condo governance. (Term of office is maximum 2 yrs unless replacements cannot be found, in which case term may be extended.)

[pkrv]

Thanks for starting this tread. It looks like the sinking fund is a part of the the bylaws of your specific condominium.

For us it states - On transfer .... the Buyer shall make contribution to a sinking fund for the common benefits of the Co-owners ...... for the purposes of replacement and repair to the Common Property in proportion to the area of the Unit to the total of all the units in the condominium......

for us this was a one off payment of 750 THB psm

But I guess it will at some point need to be topped up I am still researching this.

There is a lot more text but I have asked for an electronic copy rather than laboriously retyping it - I will get back on some of our definitions - PKRV

[ripley]

Our condo was advised that we were legally required to have a Sinking Fund as described above. I don't see the term mentioned specifically in Condo Law, however it does say that the JP pays in for the upkeep of the bldg. and the amount , etc. is determined in the Regulations of the Condo. In any case, since the matter comes up often in discussions about Condos, reckon we'd better have a good definition for "Sinking Fund".

[pkrv]

ripley, on 2011-06-07 15:40:43, said:

Our condo was advised that we were legally required to have a Sinking Fund as described above. I don't see the term mentioned specifically in Condo Law, however it does say that the JP pays in for the upkeep of the bldg. and the amount , etc. is determined in the Regulations of the Condo. In any case, since the matter comes up often in discussions about Condos, reckon we'd better have a good definition for "Sinking Fund".

OK - I have this

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[Delight]

ripley, on 2011-06-07 15:40:43, said:

Our condo was advised that we were legally required to have a Sinking Fund as described above. I don't see the term mentioned specifically in Condo Law, however it does say that the JP pays in for the upkeep of the bldg. and the amount , etc. is determined in the Regulations of the Condo. In any case, since the matter comes up often in discussions about Condos, reckon we'd better have a good definition for "Sinking Fund".

My view is that if a developer specifies a sinking fund plus the regular maintenance fee in the advertising and in the contract with a purchaser , then he can legally collect it ,since the entire money can be classed as a maintenance fund -payable at the beginning of the 'condo' year.The Law just states that the contract must not be to the detriment of the purchaser.

The wording:

Sinking funds are at the discretion of the developer  or  as determined at a General meeting.

may clarify your definition

Edited by Delight, 2011-06-07 18:36:53.

[Delight]

I can think of 2 more terms that might justify their place in the Ripley's  list of definitions.


1) Completion -This word appears in the advertizing by developers. But completion of what? The completed  building with the necessary safety certification or full Completion ie when the building has been fully registered as a condo.

2) Transfer

I throw it open for comment

Edited by Delight, 2011-06-07 19:51:53.

[pkrv]

Delight, on 2011-06-07 19:51:01, said:

I can think of 2 more terms that might justify their place in the Ripley's  list of definitions.


1) Completion -This word appears in the advertizing by developers. But completion of what? The completed  building with the necessary safety certification or full Completion ie when the building has been fully registered as a condo.

2) Transfer

I throw it open for comment

Sorry I can only embed print screen images - here we go sections 1.1 to 1.12 of my contract

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[ripley]

pkrv - Is your thumbnail from your condo's regulations or from a translation of Thai Condo Law?
  
   Delight - Can you source your "Sinking funds are at the discretion of the developer  or  as determined at a General meeting."


I was aiming for the simplest possible definition of terms, because they are often used in debates about the meaning and intent of Law. In the case of "Sinking Fund" for instance, to just explain how a Sinking Fund differs from the Maintenance or any other fund or Condo Account. As far as I can tell, the differences are:
1.) The Sinking Fund is maintained separately from the annual Maintenance fund
2.) The Sinking Fund is to be used for emergencies - not for General Maintenance purposes.

I wonder if it's accurate or appropriate to add that the Condominium is required by law to have a Sinking Fund, but as I see no clear reference to that in Condo Law, has anyone else received a legal opinion? Likewise to access & discretion? Maybe, for the purposes of definition on this thread only, it's better to simply state the basic difference. Seems like the rest could be an entire subject for debate??? Whaddya think?

How would we define "Completion" (& in what context) - and "Transfer"?

[pkrv]

ripley, on 2011-06-07 22:30:08, said:

pkrv - Is your thumbnail from your condo's regulations or from a translation of Thai Condo Law?

Not the Condominium act - No - But a part of a contract you sign when purchasing a condominium - However I have suddenly thought you may be buying a condominium off the plan (as I did) Is this the case? It makes a difference to responses.

Edited by pkrv, 2011-06-07 22:48:49.

[Delight]

ripley, on 2011-06-07 22:30:08, said:

  
   Delight - Can you source your "Sinking funds are at the discretion of the developer  or  as determined at a General meeting."

My proposed addition to your definition was entirely based on practical activity.

'prv 'had to pay a sinking fund up front

There was no demand on the new condo that I purchased about 4 years ago for a 'up front 'sinking fund . One was created at our recent AGM.

Slightly off topic-Q for 'prv'  -Did you obtain your chanote during the same transaction  that you  paid your final payment -paid the sinking and maintenance fund. Then  with  this transaction in place you  moved in?

Edited by Delight, 2011-06-07 23:16:49.

[pkrv]

Delight, on 2011-06-07 23:16:13, said:

Slightly off topic-Q for 'prv'  -Did you obtain your chanote during the same transaction  that you  paid your final payment -paid the sinking and maintenance fund. Then  with  this transaction in place you  moved in?

Yes/No/Sort of they were extreamly difficult times with onshore/off shore rates in operation and the date of the transfer closed due to an election I think we transferred on the UK's Chrstmas day (the 25th December, they all differ) , but things were quite amicable - about a day - And I did sign a limited power of attorney to the developer to make the transfer – no need to visit the land office if you do not speak, read, write Thai nor indeed understand Thai legal matters – it's somewhat pointless, and indeed is common practice for Farangs.

Edited by pkrv, 2011-06-08 00:04:56.

[Delight]

I have  taken the liberty of stitching relevant elements of 'prv's' contract together.

Removed the actual name of his condo and highlighted the word 'Contribution ' with respect to that part that deals with sinking funds.  MANY CONDO DEFINITIONS -DATA SUPPLIED BY 'prv'.jpg   817.85K   24 downloads

This is the most professional contract that I have ever seen.

That said the only other contract that I have seen before  was the one that I signed in respect of my purchase.
By contrast I think mine was written by Mickey Mouse.

The way I see it most of the definitions that Ripley is seeking are contained within the 'prv' contract

I attach the JPEG

[ripley]

Most excellent input!

   Pkrv's contract offers some good material & extra definitions. I do have a problem with Condominium Juristic Person as a definition of Juristic Person tho. As soon as I read Condominium Juristic Person means a Juristic Person.... my eyes start to cross! (as they do when reading most legalese). Perhaps this definition is entirely separate and meant to describe the Committee, Manager, JPM, etc - the active governing structure which is used by the Juristic Person to get work done? That's what it reads like. So there would be 2 terms: Juristic Person (JP) and Condominium Juristic Person.(CJP)? I've never heard of a CJP, but it kinda makes sense and the Manager, JPM, and Committee are all registered with the Land Office.
   If that makes sense to pkrv & Delight, maybe we just simplify and add the "CJP" definition, and add "An entity which shields the owners from personal liabilities." to the previous definition of Juristic Person? Then add pkrv's definitions of other terms such as "Transfer" and "Completion" (slightly simplified)?
   Trying to keep definitions as simple as possible, just to give users a "grip" on terminology and point people in the right direction. They'll have to do the detail research themselves, because the law is vague and it's possible to wrangle indefinitely within a condo, court or with lawyers on some points.

Edited by ripley, 2011-06-08 11:42:25.

[pkrv]

Guys - Just one point - In my case it is critical to understand clause 14.3

The contract is actually in Thai - picking out English words is probably fruitless - it is an estimation of the contract - that is it.

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[ripley]

I'm sorry. I don't get why this is critical. I read that the agreement is in accordance with Thai Law and that , in case of misunderstanding or dispute, the Thai version is dominant.   I believe that applies to all translations.
  
What am I missing?

[pkrv]

ripley, on 2011-06-08 15:19:57, said:

I'm sorry. I don't get why this is critical. I read that the agreement is in accordance with Thai Law and that , in case of misunderstanding or dispute, the Thai version is dominant.   I believe that applies to all translations.
  
What am I missing?

OK the English version of my contract, as Delight correctly says, says "Contribution" to the Sinking Fund - I have no idea what the Thai word was, but I am about 99.99% sure, it meant you will pay it.

Sinking funds are pretty much one off events and need to be overseen and protected - they are there to protect against major disruptions to your condominium, not day to day maintenance.

Edited by pkrv, 2011-06-08 16:10:49.

[Delight]

pkrv, on 2011-06-08 16:08:04, said:

ripley, on 2011-06-08 15:19:57, said:

I'm sorry. I don't get why this is critical. I read that the agreement is in accordance with Thai Law and that , in case of misunderstanding or dispute, the Thai version is dominant.   I believe that applies to all translations.
  
What am I missing?

OK the English version of my contract, as Delight correctly says, says "Contribution" to the Sinking Fund - I have no idea what the Thai word was, but I am about 99.99% sure, it meant you will pay it.

Sinking funds are pretty much one off events and need to be overseen and protected - they are there to protect against major disruptions to your condominium, not day to day maintenance.

I took the word 'contribution 'to mean 'an initial contribution'
Implying that funds will/may have to be collected in the future -dependent on the needs of the building.

No question you have to pay it -it is not a' voluntary' contribution

[PattayaParent]

Co-Owner - is it related to the physical person or the physical unit?

ie. if I own 10 units am I 10 co-owners with equal rights to each unit (e.g. 10 parking permits), or am I 1 co-owner with a single right to only 1 parking permit no matter how many units i own?

[Delight]

ripley, on 2011-06-08 11:29:37, said:

   . I do have a problem with Condominium Juristic Person as a definition of Juristic Person tho. As soon as I read Condominium Juristic Person means a Juristic Person.... my eyes start to cross! (as they do when reading most legalese). Perhaps this definition is entirely separate and meant to describe the Committee, Manager, JPM, etc - the active governing structure which is used by the Juristic Person to get work done? That's what it reads like. So there would be 2 terms: Juristic Person (JP) and Condominium Juristic Person.(CJP)? I've never heard of a CJP, but it kinda makes sense and the Manager, JPM, and Committee are all registered with the Land Office.
  

  I can only help here by attempting to explain the mechanisms involved.

  Condominium Juristic Person

  This is the building and the co –owners as one entity. This entity having limited liability

  

  Creation of the jobs Juristic Person Manger and Manager (Building)

  This is covered in Section 35 of the Act

  Section 35:     The juristic condominium shall have one manager who may be an ordinary person or a juristic person. In the case where the manager is a juristic person, such juristic person shall appoint an ordinary person to be the person acting for the juristic person in the capacity as the manager.

  

  Thus the Juristic Person Manager is appointed . This JPM in turn appoints the Manager

  At the first EGM at the condo where I live the co –owners voted to replace the JPM . This decision automatically removed the Manager (Building).

  

  I have no idea how one becomes a Juristic Person Manager

  Maybe you have to go to Juristic Person Management  School

Edited by Delight, 2011-06-09 14:17:37.

[Delight]

PattayaParent, on 2011-06-09 13:27:11, said:

Co-Owner - is it related to the physical person or the physical unit?

ie. if I own 10 units am I 10 co-owners with equal rights to each unit (e.g. 10 parking permits), or am I 1 co-owner with a single right to only 1 parking permit no matter how many units i own?

  

  The Act says:

  Definition of a  co -owner

  'Co –owner'-means an owner of an apartment in a condominium'

  It does not say 'person who is an owner'

  This gives the scope (in my view ) such that Thai Companies can own apartments.
So for 'Co-owner' Read 'Owner'

  Ref car parking spaces

  
This is dependent on the Rules and Regulations. If these rules do not specify a limit as to say parking places -but simply says, for example, each co- owner has 2 parking spaces -then you would have enough space for your 20 cars.

  These 20 car spaces could be necessary if you rent out your 10 condos

if you own 10 condos then for certain you have a voting allocation equivalent to the sum total of the  voting allocation of each condo.  This total must not exceed the sum total of all the other condos.

Edited by Delight, 2011-06-09 15:01:55.

[PattayaParent]

Delight, on 2011-06-09 14:51:02, said:

PattayaParent, on 2011-06-09 13:27:11, said:

Co-Owner - is it related to the physical person or the physical unit?

ie. if I own 10 units am I 10 co-owners with equal rights to each unit (e.g. 10 parking permits), or am I 1 co-owner with a single right to only 1 parking permit no matter how many units i own?

  

  The Act says:

  Definition of a  co -owner

  'Co –owner'-means an owner of an apartment in a condominium'

  It does not say 'person who is an owner'

  This gives the scope (in my view ) such that Thai Companies can own apartments.
So for 'Co-owner' Read 'Owner'

  Ref car parking spaces

  
This is dependent on the Rules and Regulations. If these rules do not specify a limit as to say parking places -but simply says, for example, each co- owner has 2 parking spaces -then you would have enough space for your 20 cars.

  These 20 car spaces could be necessary if you rent out your 10 condos

if you own 10 condos then for certain you have a voting allocation equivalent to the sum total of the  voting allocation of each condo.  This total must not exceed the sum total of all the other condos.

That's exactly how I interpret it but in my condo they seem to use it either way it suits them, as in a proxy only being able to represent  maximum 3 co-owners, they interpret as people, not units.

[Delight]

PattayaParent, on 2011-06-09 15:41:10, said:

Delight, on 2011-06-09 14:51:02, said:

PattayaParent, on 2011-06-09 13:27:11, said:

Co-Owner - is it related to the physical person or the physical unit?

ie. if I own 10 units am I 10 co-owners with equal rights to each unit (e.g. 10 parking permits), or am I 1 co-owner with a single right to only 1 parking permit no matter how many units i own?

  

  The Act says:

  Definition of a  co -owner

  'Co –owner'-means an owner of an apartment in a condominium'

  It does not say 'person who is an owner'

  This gives the scope (in my view ) such that Thai Companies can own apartments.
So for 'Co-owner' Read 'Owner'

  Ref car parking spaces

  
This is dependent on the Rules and Regulations. If these rules do not specify a limit as to say parking places -but simply says, for example, each co- owner has 2 parking spaces -then you would have enough space for your 20 cars.

  These 20 car spaces could be necessary if you rent out your 10 condos

if you own 10 condos then for certain you have a voting allocation equivalent to the sum total of the  voting allocation of each condo.  This total must not exceed the sum total of all the other condos.

That's exactly how I interpret it but in my condo they seem to use it either way it suits them, as in a proxy only being able to represent  maximum 3 co-owners, they interpret as people, not units.

I think that we are going off -topic
however
The Condo Act rules in respect of Proxy carriers specifically refers to 'People' not 'Co -owners'.

[ripley]

Seems to me that our condos work in different ways regardless of actual Thai Condo Law, in some cases because we don't understand TCL and in some cases because the law is vague.This is further complicated by the fact that all we have is Translations of TCL, and the courts of law operate according to the actual Thai version. There is apparently no way to translate the Thai version into English with complete accuracy which means surprises lurk around the corner for anyone who attempts to litigate. In a way, we're often playing it by ear!

   Further, some of our definitions here are based on actual experience in litigation wherein we learn the hard way what certain terms mean! Others are subjective, based on the systems of our condos, our individual contracts, the regulations of our building. Although we can agree on most terms, our separate hardcore experiences necessitate disagreement on others.

   For instance: My experience and legal counsel received has been that a building must have a Juristic Person Manager who is elected at an AGM and whose job is to serve as the "legal hand" of the Juristic Person for the purposes of signatures on documents and government communications. The building must have a hired Manager to carry out the tasks of managing the building, and an elected Committee to represent the wishes of the owners by monitoring management, management, expenditures, etc. But mine is not the experience of all condo owners.

   Recently I encountered here the concept of Condominium Juristic Person (CJP) - apparently the people registered with the Land Office as JPM, Manager and Committee. News to me,  altho it makes sense.

   So, the best we can hope for here is a "Glossary" of sorts. We're really not in a position to go into terms in depth on this Topic, but simply to explain to what they refer and serve as a "pointer" to those seeking information. In the context of the "Glossary" we aren't in a position to delve into the wheres and why-fors of the terms. That is, in my opinion, a job for other Threads.

   So, how about we first make a list of the words we want to define, then come up with the very basic definitions? An example might be "Sinking Fund" - An amount to be maintained separately from the Maintenance or any other condo funds, to be used for building emergencies, (?) In other words, no reference to where it comes from, how it's accessed, etc. - just what we can all agree it is.