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[english_farang_lady]

I would be interested in learning how the care of animals (or lack of it) fits in to the Buddhist faith.

[RamdomChances]

english_farang_lady, on 2005-10-21 21:00:53, said:

I would be interested in learning how the care of animals (or lack of it) fits in to the Buddhist faith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think its slightly under where the "care of people" fit in but I'm not a Buddhist so might be wrong

[bina]

we had two other long threads to do with this: look under "euthenasia" (might search never workds so cant find the link anymore)....since i work with animals and have thai workers the question of care etc has come up often

lack of care is more often not a philisophical/religous matter but a financial matter: example: friend of mine's wife has been sick for four days with high fever but wont go to the doctor because of cost (small small muubaan upcountry) if she worsens then they might go but then again it could be too late, as is often the case....so why pay for a sick dog or cat... they get given food, water, a place to sleep, but thats it, until death arrives


i have a sick ferret that has an hiv type syndrome, no cure... i thought to 'put her down', the thai workers say, release her outside the jackals will do the job therefore, no bad karma for me by killing not for food purposes....

[english_farang_lady]

bina, on 2005-10-21 22:59:49, said:

we had two other long threads to do with this: look under "euthenasia" (might search never workds so cant find the link anymore)....since i work with animals and have thai workers the question of care etc has come up often

lack of care is more often not a philisophical/religous matter but a financial matter: example: friend of mine's wife has been sick for four days with high fever but wont go to the doctor because of cost (small small muubaan upcountry) if she worsens then they might go but then again it could be too late, as is often the case....so why pay for a sick dog or cat... they get given food, water, a place to sleep, but thats it, until death arrives


i have a sick ferret that has an hiv type syndrome, no cure... i thought to 'put her down', the thai workers say, release her outside the jackals will do the job therefore, no bad karma for me by killing not for food purposes....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hullo Bina - Thank you for your reply.  I will search previous threads, thanks for the tip.

Understand the financial implications.  Fully appreciate this.
Thai response to the sick ferret is telling - they seem more concerned about bad karma for you than for the welfare of the animal. You, on the other hand, are thinking of the animals welfare, and putting it out of its misery.  That, it seems to me, is the difference. Letting the jackals 'finish the job' would obviously not be in the animals best interests.  I admire you, trying to take care of animals, it must be so very difficult at times.    Many thanks for your reply.

[Abandon]

a guy ran over a dog outside a temple. He took it in and gave it to the monks and said "Sorry, my karma ran over your dogma"



hehe

[meadish_sweetball]

[robitusson]

english_farang_lady, on 2005-10-21 21:00:53, said:

I would be interested in learning how the care of animals (or lack of it) fits in to the Buddhist faith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When sickness, suffering and death are seen as intrisic, unaviodable parts of life and not as bad or wrong as the West sometimes sees them, it changes the way we look at things.

[bina]

http://www.thaivisa....showtopic=12734

also if u go to the site of journal of buddhist ethics they have some good articles u have to do a search...

found this also, just google to get the article--In Buddhist Bangkok, Even Stray Dogs Have Their Day
Following Euthanasia Ban, They Get Condos, Care; 'Mike Tyson' Unleashed
By CRIS PRYSTAY
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
March 24, 2004; Page A1
and lots lots more, just google

[Ice Maiden]

I've noticed the way some Thais treat animals though it is really quite cruel. We live with three dogs and yesterday I stopped the children punching them  

They also got a puppy the other day as a gift for my Step-mums brother. Her sister has dropped it one hundred times and when she does they all find it funny! My Dads other ex Thai wife had a dog in England, she used to beat it with a wooden stick everyday if it didn't eat it's food. The dog unfortunatley grew up to be so nasty we had to put it down  

My step-mum's other sister also got a puppy and threw it out when it was older because it wasn't cute anymore.

If they want to buy a dog then why don't they learn how to look after it?

[kayo]

There was an intersting article in one of the local papers here about how kids, if taught from a young age how to love, care for animals, would stand an increased chance of being good commonly DECENT adults, towards animals, but also towards people in general...

It worked for me.

[sbk]

I agree with Ice Maiden here. I don't think its so much the about the Thai people's opposition to putting an animal down or even the idea that everything suffers so much as it is the wilfull cruelty that everyone sees enacted out towards animals by Thais and many farangs each and every day. All one has to do is look to the Isaan thread and the discussion of how to poison cats by farangs to see a blatant disregard for life.  All one has to do is see a taxi aim for a street dog rather than let it cross the street to see overt cruelty.

Personally, I doubt it is that much different in the west but is far less blatant there as it is not an accepted part of the culture whereas here it seems to be.

But I do find the cruelty to animals and other humans to be quite hypocritical in a nation that prides itself on its Buddhist lifestyle.

[chownah]

The only scriptural reference I've seen that deals with animals is about Right Livelyhood.  It basically says you shouldn't have a job that involves killing.  Does anyone else have information on this or any other scriptural reference to animals?

[RamdomChances]

Personaly I've not really witnest much overt crulty towards animanls here, more of just a sublime indifferance. It's not that they want to be cruel to animals is't just they are so far down on the pecking order they they just dont care.

[taxexile]

Quote

But I do find the cruelty to animals and other humans to be quite hypocritical in a nation that prides itself on its Buddhist lifestyle.

thailand has for a long time been "a hub of hypocritical behaviour"

but its the one hub that they dont like to publicise too much.


the treatment of cats and dogs here is nothing short of barbaric.
but the thai public will generally close their eyes to things that they find to be distasteful or provocative and maybe thats why so many of the problems here go both un-noticed and unsolved.

animals , (despite the veritable abundance of  buddhist values seen to be dripping off thais by the bucketload) , are very much the lowest of the low here , unless they are edible of course.

buddhism for most here seems to be a way of buying credit towards a comfortable afterlife for themselves rather than using it as a way to improve the wellbeing of society.


in thailand dogs and cats are definately only for christmas.


years ago , i remember a scenario in my wifes sisters house in bangkok.
two  cockroaches appeared from under a box and proceeded to march across the floor , my wife got up and with a piece of paper upended them so that they were on their backs floundering around and unable to right themselves.

they cant turn themselves over and will die shortly i was told.

i watched for a while until after about half an hour i went over and flattened one with a book and killed it.

shrieks of horror from the family , i had killed a living creature , even one as horrible as a cockroach.

better to turn them over and let them suffer for hours until they die of exhaustion i was told.

next day as they were boiling live crabs for supper , well thats another story.

hypocracy ??? , not here mate.

Edited by sabaijai, 2005-10-24 17:18:28.

[chownah]

I'm wondering if this topic should be moved out of the Buddhist forum since the responses have been mostly about Thai people's insensitivity to animals and seems to not have very much to do with Buddhism.   What do people think?

[Abandon]

There was a story in the Udana (Ithink) about some kids throwing stones at fish in a pond, and the Buddha (I think) asked them - do you think the fish are enjoying it? Well what're you dong it for then?

But animals don't get much mention other than as metaphors for states of mind.


(I think)

[siamesekitty]

In Thai when you call someone สัตว์ (saht), which means "animal", it's a very rude word. Try it sometime if you're ever looking for a fight.  


(just FYI)

[sabaijai]

I'll let it run another day or two in case someone comes up with something to say that's relevant to Buddhism. So far we're mostly talking about Thai culture, not Buddhism.

There are other threads on this topic in this forum that may answer the OP's question. Search for 'animal' or 'vegetarian' (separate but related issues, vis a vis Buddhism).

One thing to keep in mind is that the feelings westerners have for cats and dogs borders on a reverence that many Thais may not feel themselves. Different cultures have different ways of regarding animals. In France horses are used for food, in Vietnam dogs likewise.

A Westerner might think nothing of killing an annoying mosquito but find the same act against an annoying dog inhumane. A practicing monk would find the killing of either creature unwholesome.

Whoever takes a stick
to beings desiring ease,
when he himself is looking for ease,
will meet with no ease after death.
Whoever doesn't take a stick
to beings desiring ease,
when he himself is looking for ease,
will meet with ease after death.
Udana II, 3

[taxexile]

Quote

A practicing monk would find the killing of either creature unwholesome.

unless it is the popular northeastern monk , luang pho khun parisutto , who said to thaksin ,

"dont bother putting drug traders in jail , the sin from killing one ya ba trader is the same as from killing one mosquito. nothing to be afraid of."

matichon raiwan 30/9/2003.

[sbk]

Sabaijai, sorry, i am the one who pointed out that the treatment of animals didn't seem very Buddhist to me.

[bina]

sorry but did anyone check out the articles in the journal of buddhist ethics??

there are some other articles somewhere but ive lost track of all my bookmarks.... but all in all, animals as such werent treated as separate but just as part of the 'loving kindness' etc, no killing, etc but there is no specific reference that i could find that specifically states 'no cruelty to animals' as there is in the mishna in judaism where there is a specific phrase that warns against committing cruel acts to animals ,not that anyone here follows that really well....

i think what random chance said is closest to truth: indifference is more the word  and not actual cruelty per say ( donkeys with burning tires tied on their backs, etc , cats with firecrackers on tails, etc as we see among the palestinian kids)

[sabaijai]

taxexile, on 2005-10-23 11:06:04, said:

Quote

A practicing monk would find the killing of either creature unwholesome.

unless it is the popular northeastern monk , luang pho khun parisutto , who said to thaksin ,

"dont bother putting drug traders in jail , the sin from killing one ya ba trader is the same as from killing one mosquito. nothing to be afraid of."

matichon raiwan 30/9/2003.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even killing a mosquito, for a monk, would be a violation of the Vinaya or monastic code. I believe recommending killing to a layperson is also a violation.

If you go looking for them, you'll find plenty of irregular monks. Reminds me of the days when the PLAT insurgency was active, Phra Kittivutho announced on at least one occasion that "Killing a communist is like placing fish in a monk's bowl."

[phibunmike]

RamdomChances, on 2005-10-23 12:24:45, said:

Personaly I've not really witnest much overt crulty towards animanls here, more of just a sublime indifferance. It's not that they want to be cruel to animals is't just they are so far down on the pecking order they they just dont care.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

- although I have to say that up here in Isaan people drive at 20mph and brake violently just in case that dog on the verge decides to wander out into the road...

[taxexile]

Quote

i indifference is more the word and not actual cruelty per say

from a religious perspective , isnt the indifference to the suffering being witnessed the same as the cruelty causing the suffering

does buddhism (or any other religion) suggest active intervention to reduce the suffering ?

[chownah]

taxexile, on 2005-10-24 07:39:29, said:

Quote

i indifference is more the word and not actual cruelty per say

from a religious perspective , isnt the indifference to the suffering being witnessed the same as the cruelty causing the suffering

does buddhism (or any other religion) suggest active intervention to reduce the suffering ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that indifference to the suffering is probably closer to a correct attitude from a Buddhist perspective than causing the suffering.  Indifference is sometimes very close to detachment.

A similar idea is, perhaps, contained in the writings about Right Livelyhood.  The Buddha says that a Buddhist should not have a job that involves killing...so I guess being a butcher is ruled out...but...the Buddha ate meat (at least I have heard it claimed so) and it is not forbidden for monks to eat meat.  Many people might think that eating meat is morally equivalent to killing the animal.

Also, Theraveda Buddhism (the kind common in Thailand...the kind that focuses directly on what the Buddha taught) is not a religion.  It is the practice of following the advice of the Buddha.  The Buddha did many years of research into how the mind works and when he presented his findings to the experts of the time they almost all agreed that his ideas and techniques were valid.  No one asks you to 'believe in the Buddha'.  On the contrary, the Buddha says that everyone can do what he describes and they must judge for themselves if his techniques are right or not and you have to do the work yourself.....its all up to you individually and personally.