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[DMB]

I have been reading lots and varied stories of people farming rubber or considering it?
My wifes family have several rai of trees and i have seen all the figures banded around.
My question is at what year generally will the trees no longer be able to be tapped and has anyone any idea of what the mature trees can sell for if sold for timber?
The families trees are only 3/4 years old at the moment and i guess i was just thinking way ahead.

[jamescollister]

Hi DMB
          I'll have a guess you are not young, as most of us on the farming forum are on the wrong side of 50. If that's the case don't think you will be around for the selling. As for price that will depend on clone type and how well the trees have been looked after. Think you are looking at 300,000 Baht a rai plus.  Who knows what it will be in 30 years or so. Jim

[DMB]

Thanks Jim.
I am actually in my late 30s.
Thankyou for responding.
Having scoured the forum and youtube i appreciate your reply as you obviously have a good knowledge of all things rubber!
At what age do the trees reach the point of no longer being able to tap? I know it may vary but in your expert opinion a rough idea would be useful?

[DMB]

sorry didnt read your reply obviously as you have already said 30 years or more!!

[David006]

jamescollister, on 2011-08-28 15:30:37, said:

Hi DMB
          I'll have a guess you are not young, as most of us on the farming forum are on the wrong side of 50. If that's the case don't think you will be around for the selling. As for price that will depend on clone type and how well the trees have been looked after. Think you are looking at 300,000 Baht a rai plus.  Who knows what it will be in 30 years or so. Jim

[TPI]

David006, on 2011-08-28 16:05:15, said:

jamescollister, on 2011-08-28 15:30:37, said:

Hi DMB
          I'll have a guess you are not young, as most of us on the farming forum are on the wrong side of 50. If that's the case don't think you will be around for the selling. As for price that will depend on clone type and how well the trees have been looked after. Think you are looking at 300,000 Baht a rai plus.  Who knows what it will be in 30 years or so. Jim

Surely you have made a mistake??? ฿3,900 per tree is laughable (฿300,000 divided by 76) try ฿300 on a very good day!

[jamescollister]

TPI, on 2011-08-29 12:12:03, said:

David006, on 2011-08-28 16:05:15, said:

jamescollister, on 2011-08-28 15:30:37, said:

Hi DMB
          I'll have a guess you are not young, as most of us on the farming forum are on the wrong side of 50. If that's the case don't think you will be around for the selling. As for price that will depend on clone type and how well the trees have been looked after. Think you are looking at 300,000 Baht a rai plus.  Who knows what it will be in 30 years or so. Jim

Surely you have made a mistake??? ฿3,900 per tree is laughable (฿300,000 divided by 76) try ฿300 on a very good day!

No mistake, go into any good furniture outlet in the west and see how much a hardwood table etc costs. most people don't realize that all that nice shiny furniture is really old rubber trees. Some places they are grown just for lumber. Jim

[jamescollister]

Rubberwood
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rubberwood is the wood from the Pará rubber tree (Hevea brasiliensis). It has always been used on a small scale, but has become much more common now, a relative new-comer on the market. There are extensive plantations with these trees in southeastern Asia: the older practice was to just burn the tree at the end of its latex-producing cycle, due to the poor properties of the wood. Now, industrial processing may serve to keep the deficiencies of inferior quality woods under control in the finished product, and this applies here: the wood from these trees is now put to use on a wide scale. The wood has become economically significant.

Rubberwood is now advertised as an "environmentally friendly" wood, as it makes use of plantation trees that have already served a useful function (however, in promoting the wood, sellers often go overboard and make false claims about its strength and durability). The wood is very susceptible to decay and should be used only indoors. It has a notable tendency to warp, which can be kept under control (mostly) by applying pressure during drying. However, it is fairly easy to work, and glues well: it is mostly used in the form of engineered lumber (finger-jointed) which eliminates some of its disadvantages. Also, as it is a byproduct and plentiful, it is cheap, which makes it a very popular material in the countries with plantations. Products made of rubberwood are a significant export for these countries; such products include toys, cutting boards, and the lower grades of furniture.

Rubberwood is sometimes also called parawood, or "Hevea" for the genus that the tree belongs to. An aggressive marketing ploy is to market it under the name "Malaysian Oak," which has trustworthy sound.

[DMB]

May be a few years!! but at least there is a reasonable retirement fund at the end of all that hard work?
Presuming that the timber is still of value to someone?
Is there any actual figures anywhere of what has prices have actualy been achieved or are you estimating?
It does seem quite a good sum but i guess an awful lot of time,money and hard work has gone into those trees?

[jamescollister]

DMB, on 2011-08-29 13:02:24, said:

May be a few years!! but at least there is a reasonable retirement fund at the end of all that hard work?
Presuming that the timber is still of value to someone?
Is there any actual figures anywhere of what has prices have actualy been achieved or are you estimating?
It does seem quite a good sum but i guess an awful lot of time,money and hard work has gone into those trees?

DMB don't really know where you would look to see the current price, or for that matter how they grade the lumber. Suppose if you have big tall trees with out lower branches you get more. Try searching on Malaysian or Indian sites they are more likely to be in English.
Not a thing that I will be around for, will leave that for the kids to sort out in 20 or so years. Jim

[DMB]

I know the prices now really has no bearing on what to expect in 30 years but just trying to think ahead!!
I will carry on trawling the net to try and find some information,struggling thus far?

[tothemark]

jamescollister, on 2011-08-28 15:30:37, said:

Hi DMB
          I'll have a guess you are not young, as most of us on the farming forum are on the wrong side of 50. If that's the case don't think you will be around for the selling. As for price that will depend on clone type and how well the trees have been looked after. Think you are looking at 300,000 Baht a rai plus.  Who knows what it will be in 30 years or so. Jim

Hi Jim,
Never thought I would be disagreeing with you !

But the figure per rai for old rubber varies between 20,000 to 40,000 baht per rai. I know this as fact because we have had a number of offers on our rubber which is over 20 years old.
The higher figures applies to the height of the trunks, where the 3m ones fetch the best money. Most trunks in Thailand are 2m+ on older trees, something to do with the height of the population and being able to prune height - methinks.
The 300,000 per rai is probably correct as the manufactured article in the shops, just goes to show what they make on the stuff.

[jamescollister]

tothemark, on 2011-08-29 18:07:48, said:

jamescollister, on 2011-08-28 15:30:37, said:

Hi DMB
          I'll have a guess you are not young, as most of us on the farming forum are on the wrong side of 50. If that's the case don't think you will be around for the selling. As for price that will depend on clone type and how well the trees have been looked after. Think you are looking at 300,000 Baht a rai plus.  Who knows what it will be in 30 years or so. Jim

Hi Jim,
Never thought I would be disagreeing with you !

But the figure per rai for old rubber varies between 20,000 to 40,000 baht per rai. I know this as fact because we have had a number of offers on our rubber which is over 20 years old.
The higher figures applies to the height of the trunks, where the 3m ones fetch the best money. Most trunks in Thailand are 2m+ on older trees, something to do with the height of the population and being able to prune height - methinks.
The 300,000 per rai is probably correct as the manufactured article in the shops, just goes to show what they make on the stuff.

As I said I never really looked in to it much, but the 300,000 was what I was told a logging company here was paying. 20,000 to 40,000 seems cheap for the amount of board lumber you would get from a big trees. Maybe there is a lumber man out there who knows about lumber. Jim

[jamescollister]

Pen. Malaysia logs, domestic (SQ) US$ per m³
DR Meranti 258-277 ⇑
Balau 313-342 ⇑
Merbau 343-375 ⇑
Rubberwood 93-127 ⇑
Keruing 234-250 ⇑
Peninsular Malaysian meranti logs are
Hi all took a bit of finding, but got there. The above is the rubber wood price bulk supply. $93 to $127 US per cubic meter. Don't know how many cubic meters in a big old rubber tree, but would think a few. I'll let someone else try and figure how much a stand of trees is worth. Jim

[DMB]

Thanks for finding that out Jim.
I wouldnt have a clue as to how much you would expect from a fully mature tree or how to work it out approx from your data?
I would be very disappointed if each rai was only worth 20-40,000 bht.

[GilleThai]

DMB, on 2011-08-31 00:10:16, said:

Thanks for finding that out Jim.
I wouldnt have a clue as to how much you would expect from a fully mature tree or how to work it out approx from your data?
I would be very disappointed if each rai was only worth 20-40,000 bht.

www.helsinki.fi/vitri/publications/theses/Rubber.../Thesis_final_Rantala.pdf might be a place to look for volume pr tree. At least they have volume pr ha (page 40) even if the numbers are on trees younger than 30 years.

[jamescollister]

Have to say, I like Tothemark took what I heard on face value and never questioned the number. If Mark, a respected member, had not posted I would still be none the wiser.
Still not much wiser now, as I have no idea how much lumber you get from a tree. Think there is some sort of formula, about breast height diameter X height. Anyway if there are people selling old rubber, I would be contacting the Royal Thai Forestry Dept. or a big lumber supplier to see if they can recommend a logging company and hopefully get a fair price. Jim

[tothemark]

jamescollister, on 2011-08-31 10:39:05, said:

Have to say, I like Tothemark took what I heard on face value and never questioned the number. If Mark, a respected member, had not posted I would still be none the wiser.
Still not much wiser now, as I have no idea how much lumber you get from a tree. Think there is some sort of formula, about breast height diameter X height. Anyway if there are people selling old rubber, I would be contacting the Royal Thai Forestry Dept. or a big lumber supplier to see if they can recommend a logging company and hopefully get a fair price. Jim

Hi Jim,
No disrespect but if the lumber was worth 300,000 a rai I would be buying up all the rai i could of old rubber and i have seen a few. However, the lumber aspect is an important consideration when buying old rubber especially if you are looking at circa 100,000 to 130,000 as a purchase cost of older rubber per rai (this figure is based on rubber rai that i have been offered). The lumber goes some way to covering your replanting costs and growth cycle costs, especially if you can hit 40,000, ours unfortunately are only worth 20,000 as they are not 3m trunks.

A number of companies advertise on boards near rubber areas offering to buy the wood and actually travel round touting for business as well, thats how i got my figures, these figures were also confirmed by our land lawyer in Udon earlier this year when I asked him if our wood would fetch 40k per rai.

There was also some rubbish chinese whispers kicking about last year where the Thai government would buy back old rubber plantation lumber at well over the odds at around 60,000 per rai (some even mentioned 100,000)  to stimulate replanting of better strains and higher yields, it was all bollocks in the end which was a shame, as it would have meant some real cheap land opportunities.

[jamescollister]

tothemark, on 2011-08-31 18:53:22, said:

jamescollister, on 2011-08-31 10:39:05, said:

Have to say, I like Tothemark took what I heard on face value and never questioned the number. If Mark, a respected member, had not posted I would still be none the wiser.
Still not much wiser now, as I have no idea how much lumber you get from a tree. Think there is some sort of formula, about breast height diameter X height. Anyway if there are people selling old rubber, I would be contacting the Royal Thai Forestry Dept. or a big lumber supplier to see if they can recommend a logging company and hopefully get a fair price. Jim

Hi Jim,
No disrespect but if the lumber was worth 300,000 a rai I would be buying up all the rai i could of old rubber and i have seen a few. However, the lumber aspect is an important consideration when buying old rubber especially if you are looking at circa 100,000 to 130,000 as a purchase cost of older rubber per rai (this figure is based on rubber rai that i have been offered). The lumber goes some way to covering your replanting costs and growth cycle costs, especially if you can hit 40,000, ours unfortunately are only worth 20,000 as they are not 3m trunks.

A number of companies advertise on boards near rubber areas offering to buy the wood and actually travel round touting for business as well, thats how i got my figures, these figures were also confirmed by our land lawyer in Udon earlier this year when I asked him if our wood would fetch 40k per rai.

There was also some rubbish chinese whispers kicking about last year where the Thai government would buy back old rubber plantation lumber at well over the odds at around 60,000 per rai (some even mentioned 100,000)  to stimulate replanting of better strains and higher yields, it was all bollocks in the end which was a shame, as it would have meant some real cheap land opportunities.

Tothemark clearly I am missing something here, the wholesale price is around the $100 US a cubic metre and you are getting about $10 for the whole tree. Wouldn't it pay for you to cut your own trees and get the local board man with his pickup mounted buzz saw to cut them up. Leave them to dry and then sell to the lumber yards at 3000  Baht 100 US a meter. Failing that charcoal here is 150 a bag, fairly sure you would get a few bags out of a tree. Can't find the current eucalyptus price, but would think you are getting or being offered a lower price per ton.  
Have been having a read on the net on the lumber subject, seems they are spinning you a line about the branch  heights, prime lumber is below the branches, but the usable lumber height, including big branches is well above. Maybe my maths  or logic is out and I am not seeing something. Jim

[jamescollister]

Back again and think I have found the answer, for in reality there is no answer. Found a study 1980s . there is a massive difference in lumber out put in the different tree types from barely usable lumber to 2 or more cubic meters per tree. Don't know which types of trees, but as I said probably won't be round to care.
To figure out the amount of lumber in a tree The breast height measurement is used. 4 feet 6 inches from the ground measure the diameter, then measure or guess the usable tree height, then calculate for volume as a tube. there are calculates for volume on the net. Guess my 300,000  Baht will be wrong in 90% of the cases as we all use the newer clones. Sorry if I had anyone buying new cars. Jim

[Mosha]

MIL got 600K for about 15 Rai of mature/end of producing trees. She has replanted, and she definitely won't see much of a return. Her plonker son, and tart daughter will. (Wife's 1/2 brother and sister)

[chang35baht]

To be honest, if I thought my 1400 30 year old trees were only worth 400,000-600,000 baht as lumber then I would seriously consider paying someone to cut and trim them myself and sell them on alone. I am sure more baht could be acheived. The figure of 300-400 baht per tree does seem ridiculous even in Thailand.
Or I would rather keep them myself and use them for firewood than let some lumber manufacture make 800/900% profit from them.
I would guesstimate that 2M cubed could be the mininmum achieved from an average 30 year old tree.
You still have the remaining task of removing the base/roots after the tree has been felled. I guess thar would eat up any money that is made from the sale of the lumber.
Don,t think I will be around for the sale of my trees either. Just as well, because it would be really annoying to see them go for such a pittance.

                       Chang35baht.

[jamescollister]

chang35baht, on 2011-09-02 13:22:29, said:

To be honest, if I thought my 1400 30 year old trees were only worth 400,000-600,000 baht as lumber then I would seriously consider paying someone to cut and trim them myself and sell them on alone. I am sure more baht could be acheived. The figure of 300-400 baht per tree does seem ridiculous even in Thailand.
Or I would rather keep them myself and use them for firewood than let some lumber manufacture make 800/900% profit from them.
I would guesstimate that 2M cubed could be the mininmum achieved from an average 30 year old tree.
You still have the remaining task of removing the base/roots after the tree has been felled. I guess thar would eat up any money that is made from the sale of the lumber.
Don,t think I will be around for the sale of my trees either. Just as well, because it would be really annoying to see them go for such a pittance.

                       Chang35baht.

If it were all so easy, as I said earlier we really need a lumber man to speak, but as I see it the 2 cubic meters is not achievable in the newer trees. There are some tables on the net that tell you how much lumber in board feet you will get form a certain volume of lumber. I read that in the newer trees the lumber in cubic meters is between 50 and 170 CM per hectare. I am guessing here, but think that there is some point when the diameter is below a certain size the real amount of usable timber drops right off. Still making your own lumber and char coaling the rest has to pay better. jim

[ClausGS]

HI All

I am a kind of wood man.
Anyway I have been working with funiture production all my life, and with that comes also yield calculation's of solid wood.

Here below a quick m3 estimation / calculation.

1 Rai = 80 trees
25 to 30 years old trees
circumference = 125 cm (At 1 M from the ground)
(I calculate with both 2m and 3m log's)
2m log  = 0.25 m3
3m log = 0.37 m3
1 rai = 80x0.25 = 20.0 m3
1 rai = 80x0.37 = 29.6 m3
In many countries the pulp wood prices are about 35 to 40 USD or 1100 to 1300 TBH ( this prices is for 1 ton or 1m3), Pulp wood is some of the lowest cost wood on the market.
Rubber wood is used for many furniture products mainly produced in Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia. so it is considered a bit better than pulp wood, but deffently a very low standard wood material for furniture.
Any way i therefore estimate the price to be about 1200 TBH / m3.
20.0 m3 x 1200 TBH = 24000 TBH / rai
29.6 m3 x 1200 TBH = 35520 TBH / rai

It seams to me that it is in line with what tothemark posted earlier.

To cut log's in to timber and then dry it to a moister content of 8 to 10% (wood need to be dry before it can be used for indoor furnitures) is not difficult if you have the right machinery, and that right machinery is a very high investment.
Also you will have atleast 40 to 50% waste in the cutting process (1m3 log = 0.5 m3 timber), and another 5 to 10% waste in the drying process.

I think the best way to get a higher price is to offer it to different companies and sell it to the heigest payer.
tothemark,,, the 20000 to 40000 TBH you where offered was that including cutting ?? i mean do you need to cut the trees you self?

Claus

[tothemark]

Hi Claus,

Yeah they do all the cutting in that price but leave you the stumps and the root system