RamdomChances

Thai Sayings and Phrases Wanted

973 posts in this topic

"Because they have nothing at stake,they are accordingly not interested in the negotiations and we are unsure of what the outcome will be this time." 

ผลการเจรจาในครั้งนี้จะเป็นอย่างไรก็ช่าง พวกเขาไม่สนใจเลย เพราะไม่ได้มีส่วนได้ส่วนเสียในเรื่องนี้

I think you are right to break the sentence into parts, though for the benefit of the readers here you could have explained which parts of your English sentence correspond with which parts of the Thai sentence.

A distinctive feature of Thai is that a sentence can be put together in many, many different ways to yield a similar meaning. We could also recast the English, and still end up with a meaning that is faithful to the Thai. Much will depend on the context in which the sentence appears.

ผลการเจรจาในครั้งนี้จะเป็นอย่างไรก็ช่าง

I gather that for this part, you give us this meaning in English:

''...and we are unsure of what the outcome will be this time."

This is - forgive me saying so - loose. I think we could also say this:

The result of the talks this time could come out any way, regardless (ie it doesn't matter)...

Nothing appears in this sentence to suggest the speaker is worried, uncertain or doubtful about the outcome....yet that is the impression I take away from the English.

I can think of half a dozen different ways we could recast this in Thai, to yield a similar meaning, or perhaps change the register a little: make it less formal, add words to give a sassy or spiky emphasis (if that's what we want).

Those variations might be just as ''accurate''...once again, it will depend on the context, and what the speaker is trying to get across.

If I wanted to make it less formal, the first thing I would do is break the sentence up. In trying to squeeze all these ideas into one sentence we end up with something which (in my view) looks rather formal and clumsy....but then maybe the speaker wants a formal tone, and to be more concise!

If you are translating, you are almost obliged to spell out the different possibilities. Apart from anything else, it helps avoid arguments such as the one which appears below.

In your sentence, ก้ช่าง is with ผลการเจรจา not with พวกเขา so if you use 'accordingly' there the sentence is 'the results went accordingly' which means according to plan

Accordingly as it is used here is just another word for ''so'', or as snowleopard says, 'therefore'. You could even knock it out of the English and still keep the meaning.

Who uses words like ''accordingly' and 'therefore' anyway? I don't...they look ugly, and I try to avoid them.

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"Because they have nothing at stake,they are accordingly not interested in the negotiations and we are unsure of what the outcome will be this time."

ผลการเจรจาในครั้งนี้จะเป็นอย่างไรก็ช่าง พวกเขาไม่สนใจเลย เพราะไม่ได้มีส่วนได้ส่วนเสียในเรื่องนี้   

Now you see?

Sorry, I don't see. Your breaking up of the sentence infers lthings which are actually not there in the Thai version.

As the previous speaker says, these inferred things all depend on the actual circumstances. If you have additional background information about this sentence, maybe you are right to infer these things, but a professional translator should not 'fill out the gaps' unless he is absolutely certain what the real situation is.

There is no information in the Thai sentence that tells us whether the outcome of the talks is uncertain or not. The core message is that "they" are not interested in the ourcome of the talks because they are not involved and will not be affected / have nothing at stake.

'They are not interested in the outcome of the talks since it will not affect them (their interests). '

To get the proper meaning of the words ก็ช่าง they should be analysed together with อย่างไร (อย่างไรก็ช่าง - which is similar to อย่างไรก็ตาม which gives the meaning "whatever / irrespective of / no matter / irrelevant"

Secondly,"accordingly" is an adverb so it cannot modify "พวกเขา=they",which is a pronoun.

'Accordingly' is a word you filled in when you made your translation, it is not the actual meaning of ก็ช่าง ... Sure, 'accordingly' is an adverb in English. Please give me a sentence constituent analysis of your Thai sentence that shows that ก็ช่าง is an adverb in Thai?

The Thai sentence is confirmed as accurate.I think my analysis and translation is okay too.Some colleagues and students whom I've shown it to agree as well.

Yes, the Thai sentence is correct. There is no disputing that. But your claim that ก็ช่าง means 'accordingly' is incorrect. Your interpretation that the outcome of the talks is UNSURE is not substantiated by any evidence from this sentence.

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...these inferred things all depend on the actual circumstances. If you have additional background information about this sentence, maybe you are right to infer these things, but a professional translator should not 'fill out the gaps' unless he is absolutely certain what the real situation is.
Well put!
There is no information in the Thai sentence that tells us whether the outcome of the talks is uncertain or not.

My point above.

But your claim that ก็ช่าง means 'accordingly' is incorrect.
I wasn't aware anyone was asserting that...I assumed it was just dropped in to the English to smoothen it out. If that was the intention, then you are right: ก็ช่าง cannot be used to mean 'accordingly'.
To get the proper meaning of the words ก็ช่าง they should be analysed together with อย่างไร (อย่างไรก็ช่าง - which is similar to อย่างไรก็ตาม which gives the meaning "whatever / irrespective of / no matter / irrelevant"

Yes.

พวกเขาไม่สนใจเลย

This, coupled with จะเป็นอย่างไรก็ช่าง suggests to me that the tone of the sentence is much sassier than suggested by the English translation we have been given.

It is almost as if the speaker is saying, ''Well, these talks can come out any which way, because we're not interested (now)...''

In that case, this English translation ..''and we are unsure of what the outcome will be this time''...sounds out of place.

As you say, there is nothing in the Thai to suggest anyone is uncertain. And if the tone is as sassy as I suggest, then no one would care how the talks come out...they are beyond the point of caring what the result is.

If it is a sassy, throwaway tone we want, we could add particles and speech inflections to the sentence to express that idea more clearly.

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Yes... if that is it, it's hard to get the exact 'flavour' of the sentence.

'They could not care less about....' might be an alternative to achieve that effect.

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The Thai sentence is confirmed as accurate.I think my analysis and translation is okay too
I don't think the English meaning you ascribe to it is adequate, for the various reasons given above.

I suspect it is much sassier than suggested by the English given in your translation. We don't have the context from which you took this sentence, so we are forced to make a guess based on the information given.

If you know anything about translation, you will know what a painstaking craft it is. When you read Thai texts translated from other languages, sometimes you can almost see the other language sitting beneath...though this is not always a sign of quality.

The translator has to tread a fine line between capturing the meaning intended by the original text, and remaining faithful to his own language, so it 'sounds' as if a Thai might be saying it.

More than that, the sentence fragment which appears at the end of a paragraph might make sense in a superficial sense...but to get the full flavour, really needs to be read in the context of what comes before.

Speaking generally, the more formal a sentence, the more elusive the meaning. Formal language is almost inevitably complex or abstract, and so hard to pin down.

The sentence you give is not enough by itself to convey the intended meaning, because (I suspect) it has been taken from the context in which it originally appeared. If we knew the intended meaning, we could add other words to this stand-alone sentence to get it across more accurately.

I'd say that the best translation for ก็ช่าง "goh chang" in this Thai sentence is "accordingly"!

I've now found the part where snowleopard asserts that ก็ช่าง can be used as 'accordingly'. I'm afraid that's plain wrong...it can't.

As meadish said above, it should be used in conjunction with the previous words, to mean 'whatever, it doesn't matter'.

You don't have to agree with anything;and,frankly,I don't care whether you do or not

Is this kind of hostility really necessary? Your own 'work' is far from flawed, as you can see from the exchange above. Learning is supposed to be a collaborative venture, not a clash of egos.

When you reach the point where you feel you have nothing left to learn, please let me know - I'll be the first to congratulate you. For most people, however, acquiring a language requires thousands of hours of dedicated study.

It's an exercise in humility, if anything. Every day we are confronted with humbling evidence of how little we know, not how much - and to pretend otherwise is just silly. In my experience, the noisiest 'learners' are those who appreciate this the least.

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ผลการเจรจาในครั้งนี้จะเป็นอย่างไรก็ช่าง พวกเขาไม่สนใจเลย เพราะไม่ได้มีส่วนได้ส่วนเสียในเรื่องนี้
I can think of half a dozen different ways we could recast this in Thai, to yield a similar meaning, or perhaps change the register a little: make it less formal, add words to give a sassy or spiky emphasis (if that's what we want).

I think you're bluffing,Craftwork! -_-

Why are you suddenly using the pronoun "WE" when calling for a sixfold recasting of my sentence in Thai? :D

Why haven't you already done it yourself on a Thai language keyboard?.

I'm suspicious of your self-proclaimed proficiency in reading and writing Thai and I'd like to see you put your money where your mouth is. :o

This is the Thai language forum after all. :D

I expect to see those six sentences in Thai from you in your next post.OK? :wub:

You don't have to agree with anything;and,frankly,I don't care whether you do or not

Is this kind of hostility really necessary?

I wasn't addressing you! :D

The hostility you perceive is in your own mind.You just see the world the way you are,don't you C.W.?

Has the world been hostile and subjected you to a lot of "gay bashing" and;thus,made you this paranoid? :D

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

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I think you should address the substance of the post, which concerned a whole bunch of stuff apart from your fragile ego.

The fact is, you misunderstood that Thai sentence, but you are too vain to admit it. Meadish told you, and now I have told you as well.

I bet it really hurts, doesn't it, to find someone better than you? In my experience life is full of people like that, and they don't all have to be gay (joke). You just have to get used to it!

I have better things to do than get into a webboard fight with someone who (judging by his posts) is but a prickly newbie to the study of Thai.

That said, I am just itching to show you what a real translator is capable of doing (not me, I hasten to add)...but I fear it's too late for that.

You have already moved this thread away from the substance of the issue and into the personal stuff, which is where these debates inevitably end up.

No westerner can bear to have his knowledge of Thai questioned...it's like you've questioned his honour and dignity, his very right to exist. He feels immediately under threat, no matter how rudimentary his skills. Pathetic!

Thai is not your language to own...you're borrowing it, and by the sounds of it you have a helluva lot more work to do yet.

Good luck...oh, and ''Cheers!''

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Now you have lost me guys! :D

Don't worry about it Neeranam! :o

Craftwork thought it was the gay forum! :D

He's the one who got lost! :D

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

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Gentlemen,please!

Let's not degenerate to the level of many sites where senseless invective hurtles back and forth; to stick to the point, Snowleopard, at the risk of repeating myself, would you not agree a concise translation of your sentence would be-' Whatever the outcome of the talks they are not interested\ concerned as they have no vested interests at stake'?

Or to rephrase it- The outcome of the talks maybe whatever, they have no interest as they have nothing to gain or lose'.

Yours,

bannork.

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Snowleopard,

As you say, one dresses 'accordingly' because one knows the context or what has been said, but it's the same for 'appropriately'. For example, when foreigners go to The Grand Palace they're told to dress 'appropriately', in other words, respect the Thai cultural norms, remember the context one is in. Like 'accordingly' you can't dress 'appropriately' if you don't know the conditions, context,etc.

This leads me to the useful idiom,' splitting hairs'. do you know the Thai equivalent?

Yours,

bannork.

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Gentlemen,please! Let's not degenerate to the level of many sites where senseless invective hurtles back and forth...

Hear, hear! :o

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Snowleopard,

As you say, one dresses 'accordingly' because one knows the context or what has been said, but it's the same for 'appropriately'. For example, when foreigners go to The Grand Palace they're told to dress 'appropriately', in other words, respect the Thai cultural norms, remember the context one is in. Like 'accordingly' you can't dress 'appropriately' if you don't know the conditions, context,etc.

This leads me to the useful idiom,' splitting hairs'. do you know the Thai equivalent?

Yours,

bannork.

As you say, one dresses 'accordingly' because one knows the context or what has been said, but it's the same for 'appropriately'. For example, when foreigners go to The Grand Palace they're told to dress 'appropriately'

Hi Bannork,

If for some reason you were told to dress "inappropriately"by an authority which you respect,then you should dress "accordingly",shouldn't you? :o

(e.g civil disobedience)

They aren't real synonyms but I get your point,Bannork. :D

Then again,I was referring to the other definition. :D

Cheers.

Snowleopard

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Yes... if that is it, it's hard to get the exact 'flavour'
Who uses words like ''accordingly' and 'therefore' anyway? I don't...they look ugly, and I try to avoid them.

make it less formal, add words to give a sassy or spiky emphasis (if that's what we want).

If it is a sassy, throwaway tone we want, we could add particles and speech inflections
And if the tone is as sassy as I suggest
...but to get the full flavour
Yes... if that is it, it's hard to get the exact 'flavour'

ขอถามดูหน่อย "sassy" หมายความว่าอะไร :D

Vad hände,Sötbullen? :D Blev du bort-dribblad utav fikusen? :o

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Snowleopard,

'sassy' used to mean cheeky, as in a girl or young woman being a little naughty or forward, lowcut bras, hotpants,' shaking her booty' as the late great guitarist Freddie King used to say, and/ or mouthing phrases unsuitable for one of such tender years; however in recent times it has come to mean lively or spicy in the sense of giving an individual touch to something, making something intrinsically dull, interesting.

Richard Branson, the owner of 'Virgin' could be a male equivalent of 'sassy'. Am I stretching the definition too far?

bannork.

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Snowleopard,

'sassy' used to mean cheeky, as in a girl or young woman being a little naughty or forward, lowcut bras, hotpants,' shaking her booty' as the late great guitarist Freddie King used to say, and/ or mouthing phrases unsuitable for one of such tender years; however in recent times it has come to mean lively or spicy in the  sense of giving an individual touch to something, making something intrinsically dull, interesting.

Richard Branson, the owner of 'Virgin'  could be  a male equivalent of 'sassy'. Am I stretching the definition too far?

bannork.

Sounds on the mark to me, bannork. Although it's a somewhat outdated word these days and the term "wise ass" is more common & applied to females as well as males.

Depending on the lack of societal constraints etc. :o

บุณมี

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'Sassy' in the sense I think is meant here is very close to the definition you give, bannork. Basically, cheeky would do.

Quoting Neil Young, rock's grand old man:

'I sassed back at my mom

I sassed back at the teacher

I got thrown out of bible school

for sassing back at the preacher'

- Crime in the City

That quote I suppose should provide the flavour of 'sassy' - 'cheeky' essentially.

I am still not sure where you got this sentence from, Snöis, but I think it might help if we are to interpret it correctly.

Not up for starting a flamewar, but still maintaining that you made a couple of misassumptioms about the sentence - basically the mistakes I mentioned in my last post; and I see nothing wrong with that. None of us are perfect, least of all me, and to translate and interpret Thai is not the easiest of tasks.

The forum, ideally, should be a place where we can all get better by sharing the knowledge each of us has, be it snippets, puddles or oceans...

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How about: เซา เว้า (sao wao) - stop talking

and..........: หุบ ปาก (hup pak) - close [your] mouth

Under what circumstances should either be used? Or never? :o

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How about: เซา เว้า (sao wao) - stop talking

and..........: หุบ ปาก (hup pak) - close [your] mouth

Under what circumstances should either be used? Or never? :o

Basically, never with a stranger unless you're looking for trouble, I suppose.

Jokingly with close friends, I see no problem using it...

As for the Isaan expression, I don't know - but I would guess it's similar. Although Isaan culture seems to be more rustic and lack the obsession of the Siamese of speaking "polite" all the time, most of them would probably expect a foreigner to be more polite than themselves... at least they do here in the North.

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craftwork+meadish_sweetball
If it is a sassy, throwaway tone we want, we could add particles and speech inflections
And if the tone is as sassy as I suggest
...but to get the full flavour
Yes... if that is it, it's hard to get the exact 'flavour'
I sassed back at my mom

Don't go around kidding yourself re the definition of "sassy" anymore,Sugar-glob! :D

Here it is.... :o

"Sassy"is a variation of "saucy",and this colloquial expression means:impudent;saucy;rude;impertinent;insolent etc.!

Was it really this "saucy" flavour that you and your "sassy" mate C.W. were so eagerly craving to savour? :D

Here you can ingest the saucy icing on the cake by savoring some "sassy" Thai counterparts...

1.ทะลึ่ง "tah-leung"

2.หยาบคาย "yaap kaai"

3.ไร้มารยาท "rai maa-ra-yaat"

4.จองหอง "jong hong"

Snowleopard.

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Snowleopard,

I'm afraid I've developed a spot of indigestion after savouring a piece of your latest offering for some of your Thai counterparts contain ingredients that really can't be included in the same dish, for example:

จองหอง doesn't mean sassy,it means arrogant, conceited, too much self confidence, a big ego, as certain so-called VIPs possess.

หยาบคาย is more like crude, coarse or vulgar, ie ' as a country boy my humour was too coarse for the refined circles of Bangkok's hi-so'.

ไร้มารยาท means lacking manners or illmannered, I've often heard it used when a customer or consumer is complaining about the poor quality service he or she has received and the official responsible has shown no sense of respect or decorum.

ทลึ่ง is definitely the best word for cheeky and can be applied to a good percentage of Bangkok youth.

Happy eating,

yours,

bannork.

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ID: 72   Posted (edited)

[Personal contact message deleted. Wrong thread. /Meadish]

Edited by meadish_sweetball

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Snowleopard,

I'm afraid I've developed a spot of indigestion after savouring a piece of your latest offering for some of your Thai counterparts contain ingredients that really can't be included in the same dish, for example:

จองหอง doesn't mean sassy,it means arrogant, conceited, too much self confidence, a big ego, as certain so-called VIPs possess.

หยาบคาย is more like crude, coarse or vulgar, ie ' as a country boy my humour was too coarse for the refined circles of Bangkok's hi-so'.

ไร้มารยาท means lacking manners or illmannered, I've often heard it used when a customer or consumer is complaining about the poor quality service he or she has received and the official responsible has shown no sense of respect or decorum.

ทลึ่ง is definitely the best word for cheeky and can be applied to a good percentage of Bangkok youth.

Happy eating,

yours,

bannork.

Hi Bannork,

I didn't say they were real synonyms.I only said they were "sassy" and related! :o

You probably misunderstood "accidentally on purpose" this time. :D

I knew the meanings but thanks anyway for sharing your concept. :D

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

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bannork_ หยาบคาย is more like crude, coarse or vulgar, ie ' as a country boy my humour was too coarse for the refined circles of Bangkok's hi-so'.

Bannork,

The best and closest term for "sassy" might be the Thai โอหัง? :D

It's not perfect because it can also mean 1.dare;2.be bold enough;3.be arrogant etc.

Do you have a better one,B.N.?Somehow,you seem to have a real knack there for the meaning of rude Thai terms and their use at various occasions! :D

Has your skill in defining abusive Thai been honed to perfection due to your having lived long among them hillbilly yokels up there in "Hicks-ville"? :o

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

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Snowleopard,

ทะลึ่ง is definitely the word to use for cheeky, โอหัง is similar to ยโส in meaning arrogant, condescending etc; to get back to the thread, namely Thai sayings.

Here's a good one for all the Khaosan road tourists: ฝรั่งขี้นก farang khee nok, literally, the bird droppings westerners, meaning farangs with no money and/or dressed scruffily. Sadly, I myself fall into the first category but I try to avoid the second. Here's some more sayings to hopefully jumpstart the thread again.

อกหักดีกว่ารักไม่เป็น ok hak dee kwa rak mai pen, better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

ดาบสองคม dap songkhom, literally,a sword sharp on both sides, the same as the English,a double edged sword.

ก้ำกึ่ง kamkeung, 50-50, not certain, I always use this with the wife when she asks about the chances of us having the house completed before the next life.

ไม่เห็นน้ำอย่าตัดกระบอกไม่เห็นกระรอกอย่าโก่งหน้าไม้ don't count your chickens before they hatch.

ไม่มีใครอยู่ค้ำฟ้า nobody lives for ever.

ไก่แก่แม่ปลาช่อน,literally, old chicken, mother of snakehead fish, meaning a tricky, foxy older\ish woman, using her charms to seize one's assets; but why mother of snakehead fish?

Still no response to my request for an idiom equivalent to 'splitting hairs'.

Yours, bannork.

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BANGKOK 29 March 2017 02:43
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