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[Richard W]

konjianghai, on 2011-11-20 18:31:45, said:

So you trying to find the 6th tone mark by using thanthakhat based on Chong written system. ๊ is right for that 6th tone mark, it sound different then  ้ anyway from my point of view.

Using mai tri that way just shifts the problem, though I believe it makes it less severe.  For example, under your scheme, both [6]jao 'lord' (= Central Thai เจ้า) and [H]jao 'morning' (= Central Thai เช้า) would be written เจ๊า.  This would securely distinguish them from [F]jao 'to rent' (= Central Thai เช่า).  The ideal solution is to get a proper mai pan (or is it mai ben?) added to the Thai script.  The Thai script solution I prefer to use is to use Central Thai consonants with the old Lanna values (cf. akson nithet อักษรไทยนิเทศ), but it seems that most Thais are unhappy with sound values depending on the language.

konjianghai, on 2011-11-20 18:31:45, said:

Would it be more helpful if you use Diacritic when typing with Latin alphabets?

I believe there is a suitable diacritic for the 6th tone, U+1DC7 COMBINING ACUTE MACRON e.g. e᷇ (see Combining Diacritical Marks Supplement if it does not render properly).  This is based on the description as 'high-falling'.  Font support is currently poor.  It has also been pretty poor for the combining caron (for the rising tone) - Thai2English regularly substituted the breve.

Most other schemes of showing the tone extend naturally.  E.g., for this forum's scheme, I advocate using [6], as above.

[Richard W]

Thinking about the concept of a 'mai pan', a promotional intermediate would be to use ๕ as the tone mark.  To get it typed, one would have to place it after า, (or type <space, า, left, rubout, ๕, right>) but, apart from that, experimentation with fonts on LibreOffice on Ubuntu suggests it should work well.  To be perfectly general, one has the same problem with​ ะ, but I think that combination isn't needed.  Do educate me - I'm not sure how many different tones occur with dead, short syllables.  Chiang Mai certainly has rising, high and low at least, though the latter may be restricted to 'open' syllables.

[Richard W]

Mole, on 2011-10-30 19:21:21, said:

It's only บะ for northern Thai and I told about it's tone in my first post about this issue already. Many fruit/vegetable names which happens to use มะ this in central Thai, if it's also called the same, บะ will be used in northern Thai instead.

Richard W, on 2011-10-31 03:01:53, said:

MFL said:

บ่า, บะ, หม่า, หมะ, หมัก, หทาก ก็ว่า แต่ในพจนานุกรมนี้จะใช้คำนำหน้านี้เป็น บ่า เพียงรูปเดียว

Google found several instances of หมะก้วยเตด.

Mole, on 2011-10-31 08:53:16, said:

Perhaps you it's better you go and ask anyone who speak it then....

And now I've found แก๋งม่ะหนุน rather than แก๋งบ่ะหนุน in the example sentence for เก็ม on p5 of the Peace Corps Dictionary.  Is the pronunciation [L]ma[R]nun or [F]ma[R]nun?  Or is it an even more complicated matter?  Should I suspect a typo?

[nalaknarak]

I think some words are like central Thai but some are different. The tones are a little bit different too. Here I found this video on youtube:

[Mekong Bob]

Richard W, on 2011-11-15 05:05:17, said:

ThaiSold, on 2011-10-23 09:25:31, said:

keo, on 2011-10-16 12:09:35, said:

Not the best quality, but it's readable!

http://www.eric.ed.g...FS/ED401729.pdf

Problem with this dictionary there is not Thai translations for the examples to each word.  nor is there an english translation for examples so it's kinda hard to follow, seems to be a lot of tonal mistakes too like the word คั่บ they spell คับ which doesn't seem right.

When I had only worked through only 8 pages I thought it was quite reasonable (though horribly ambiguous), but having worked through all the words there do seem to be quite a few errors.  I'll list what I've found, and hope for confirmation or refutation from the experts.  I don't want to call something wrong just because different parts of the North use different tones (in terms of correspondences, not just the actual melody).  For example, the MFL gives [F]mae[H]ui as the word for 'grandmother', but then notes that in some areas it is pronounced [F]mae[6]ui, as spelt in tua mueang.

• I believe the following actually have the sixth tone, i.e. the same tone as หน้า 'face', เสื้อ 'clothing', ข้าว 'rice', ห้า 'five' and ผ้า 'cloth':
  
  • ญุ้ง = 'ยุ่ง', 'to be busy, involved'
    
  • นิ๊ง = 'เกี่ยง', 'to argue over'
    
  • เฒ่า in 'ป้อเฒ่า' 'grandfather'. (Etymologically, เฒ่า ought to be spelt เถ้า - it isn't just English that has etymologically incorrect spellings.)
• I believe the following actually have the 'falling' tone, i.e. the same tone as พ่อ 'father' (generally transcribed as ป้อ for Northern Thai) and แม่ 'mother'
  
  • ผ้าน = 'เข็ด, ขยาด' 'to be afraid of'
    
  • น้วม = 'ข้ำ, เละ', 'to be mushy'
• I believe the following actually have the 'high' tone, i.e. the same tone as น้า 'mother's younger sibling', ไม้ 'wood', น้อง 'younger sibling' and ม้า 'horse':
  
  • แต้ = 'จริง', 'to be true, real'
    
  • 2nd syllable of บ่ะป้าว = 'มะพร้าว', 'coconut'
    
  • 2nd syllable of ปี้ใป้ = 'พี่สะใภ้', 'sister-in-law' (I think ป๊ was misread as ป้)
    
  • ปู้ = 'male', as in ตั๋วปู้ = 'male animal' and  ปู้เมีย = 'kathoey'
    
  • ปื้น = 'พื้น', 'floor'
    
  • ต้อง as in ลุ๊ต้อง = 'ท้องเสีย', 'to have diarrhoea', especially as we already have กั๊ดต๊อง = 'อิ่ม', 'to be full'
    
  • แหล้ว = 'แล้ว', 'already'
• I believe the following actually have the 'low' tone, i.e. the same tone as as in เข่า 'knee', ไข่ 'egg', ผ่า 'chop' and ใหม่ 'new':
  
  • เตียว = 'กางเกง', 'pants'
    
  • 1st syllable of อีป้อ = 'พ่อ', 'father'

There are some others where there are clear errors:

• เข้าโปด for เข้าโป้ด
  
• ตั๊ดฮัน for ตั๊ดอั้น
  
• ซือ for ซื่อ (perhaps just a reproduction error)
  
• ฮัน for อั้น

Finally, there are many cases where the tone mark can only be seen in the example.

Richard W -

I have never heard the term "tua mueang" used to refer to the "Central Thai" dialect - can you please tell me where this term came from?

I have often heard "tua mueang" used to refer to the center of a district town, as opposed to the outskirts of that town.

Please clarify.  Thanks!

Edited by Mekong Bob, 43 minutes ago.