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[THAIPHUKET]

We like to drink red, 3-4 glases over an evening of 4-5 hours.
Alcohol 10-12%.  With a given body weight of 50kg, height, 165, age 40, can that already cause depencency?

[bunnaag]

depends on the size of the glasses.

[Slaps]

Welcome






.

[THAIPHUKET]

normal wine glases, rather the size of white wine glases.
Or to put it differently, how much of 10% alc is ok?

[challenger99]

your question seem simple but the answer have many "IF". Most asian feel after 1st or 2nd glass dizzy and Europeans need more, some much more. Myself was working over 20 years with russian and other communist countries and drunk Vodka from 1 dl glasses, sometimes easy 1 bottle (1 litre) on y evening. During living in Europe mostly each evening I killed a good red wine with Tanin.
Important is too, you drink while eat or not, there is no norm to say one is alcoholic or not ...... but we can say YOU are if you NEED each day alcohol or if it is just a pleasure. If you can make a break few days so I think we can say you aren't alcoholic

[gamini]

If you drink good quality wine you should not have a problem. Unfortunately such wine is very expensive in Thailand. Cheap wine may not make you an alchoholic but can damage you health in the long run ,if drunk in the quantities you quote

[TommyHellsten]

How Much Red Wine Can Cause Alcoholism ?

If you do not have it in your genes, you can drink 3-4 glasses a day without any problems
but if you are predisposed to alcoholism, I would suggest not to drink at all!

[xylophone]

gamini, on 2012-01-16 21:46:36, said:

If you drink good quality wine you should not have a problem. Unfortunately such wine is very expensive in Thailand. Cheap wine may not make you an alchoholic but can damage you health in the long run ,if drunk in the quantities you quote

There should be no problem with "cheap red wine" as it contains nothing different to the expensive red wine as a rule. I say, as a rule, because sulphur dioxide is used in all wines as a preservative, antioxidant and steriliser, and it is possible that cheaper producers may well not monitor quite how much is used, or use too much to cover a fault in the wine. Some folk may to be sensitive to this chemical.

I once met an 80 yr old Frenchman working in a vineyard in Burgundy who looked great and still worked a full day despite having drunk at least a litre of red wine per day since his late teens. Also many farm and vineyard workers of that time would regularly consume a bottle or more working the land, although it had an alcohol content of around 9% and was certainly not the highest quality wine!!

Some good comments above as regards how much to drink..........and a scientific study has shown that many Asian folk lack a gene to process alcohol so it can make them feel very unwell.

[Langsuan Man]

What you drink doesn't make you an alcoholic, the fact that you have to drink alcohol is what makes you an alcoholic

This is a normal subterfuge that persons who are alcoholics make to prove they they don't really have a problem.  Oh  I only drink beer, or wine, so I really am not an alcoholic.  It is only those folks that drink hard liquor that have the problem

3-4 glases over an evening of 4-5 hours is not the problem, if it is every night and your started out with only 1 or 2 glasses that is a problem

And to be perfectly honest, the fact that you are even asking this question indicates that you are concerned, which in itself is a  warning

[personchester]

A consumption of 3-4 glasses daily could result into alcoholism, 2-3 glasses would be saver, but not to be consumed daily because the body would become depended on it and one becomes an alcoholic.

Only drink wine five days a week, the two other days must ensue each other, that is to say stop for two days, and then hurrah, hurrah, start again for five days, and you will avoid the danger of becoming an alcoholic.

[xylophone]

One of the better definitions of alcoholism:-

"Alcoholism is a primary illness or disorder characterised by some loss of control over drinking, with habituation or addiction to the drug alcohol, causing interference in any major life function, e.g. health, family, job, spiritual, friends,legal."



Notice there that it doesn't say anything about how much you drink. So having a drinking problem isn't defined by quantity - but rather loss of control, which ultimately causes problems in other areas of your life, i.e. health, work, relationships etc.

[Eff1n2ret]

Not a scientific response to the OP, but I was reminded of a novel by a British author named Paul Torday, "The Irresistible Inheritance of Wilberforce". It's about a man who developed a liking for fine wine and had the wealth to indulge himself. Up to the moment of his death, just before which he drank a bottle of Chateau Petrus 1982 costing several hundred pounds, he persuaded himself that his consumption was that of a connoisseur, not an alcoholic.

It is an absorbing depiction of the moral and physical breakdown of a decent human being, rather darker than Torday's first novel "Salmon Fishing in the Yemen".

[Sheryl]

Lansuan Man and Philnz have it right...it is not how much you drink but whether or not you need to drink that makes an alcoholic.

There are people who drink way too much but aren't alcoholics, just have poor judgement (a lot of teenagers/college kids, for example).

And there are alcoholics who just drink beer, or just drink wine, or just drink on weekends etc..and of course alcoholics who have successfully stopped drinking, but are still alcoholics in that they would not be able to resume drinking in a "normal" controlled manner.

It is the element of compulsion that defines alcoholism, and unlike say heroin, that compulsion is not automatically caused by use, only some people are susceptible to it.

Now whether or not the amount of alcohol you are ingesting is harmful to your health is another question entirely. i would say that 4-5 glasses every single night is inadvisable from a health perspective and that you should keep it to 1-2 most nights.

And if you find it very difficult to do that, then the dependency question has answered itself.

[THAIPHUKET]

I am hypersensitive to the subject because a close friend was an alcoholic and as my Thai wife , by no means a drinker now, likes red wine.

From my talks, and please forgive any layman's misunderstandings of 10 years ago, with one of doctors involved in a special therapy I understood that to cure alcoholism is harder then to get rid of cocaine dependency. Because the brain seems to build receptors, receptors that will always cry for alcohol whereas heroin/cocaine withdrawal therapy is painful but can be permanent.
The alcohol treatment at the Charitee Berlin was roughly as follows
2-3 days patient in deep sleep, comatose. During that time some kind of blood purification with a special chemical which is meant to readjust the so called receptors.
Was strenuous and expensive.  In  the case of my friend it worked -- for a while-- too many unrelated psychological problems. But some 5 years later, he made it on his own will, he is dry since a number of years.

I had a similar treatment against smoking, also at the Charitee Berlin. I got 2 or 3 injections intramuscular. Slept for 2 days, not too deep , able to go to the bathroom, no side effects.
Never touched a cigarette again, no desire, smelling smoke doesn't bother me the least.
I was a heavy smoker, graduating from cigars to cigarettes. (NewYork fault, no Havana cigars allowed there)
In the end I smoked 40 Gudam Garam /day, clove , a dream of a smell, but hellish strong.
I selected some links which seem hit the nail.
http://clinicaltrial...how/NCT01266655
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21105289
http://psy-ccm.chari...11_with_REF.pdf
http://www.suchtakad...nnouncement.pdf
http://www.springerl...78xg8020m12301/

[mogandave]

If you be alcoholic, one's too many, and a thousand's not enough.

[THAIPHUKET]

Mogandave, that test I would like to avoid. Drunkards are bad but drunardess are unbearable... for me.

[ding]

mogandave, on 2012-01-19 21:32:58, said:

If you be alcoholic, one's too many, and a thousand's not enough.

Makes me hum a blues tune, that one.

Definition of an alcoholic;
A man or woman, sitting in an AA meeting, trying to figure out if they're alcoholic or not.

Anyway - the point that a cucumber turns into a pickle is a mystery, I figure. But once a pickle.... ain't no goin' back.
Sheryl gave a valid answer. Many styles of alcoholism, and degress of severity too.

Edited by ding, 2012-01-29 02:14:09.

[waza]

_{For healthy men and women, drinking no   more than two standard drinks on average on any day reduces the lifetime risk of harm from alcohol-related disease or injury (sometimes called long term harms).}

_{A standard drink is 10 grams of alcohol, but it is important to be aware that a standard drink can be significantly different from a typical serving of alcohol.}

_{150 ml glass of wine (9.5 to 13% alcohol) 1.4 to 1.6 standard drinks.
http://www.drinkwise...=1310377849=}

[StreetCowboy]

IN my opinion, counting your drinks will cripple you, whether alcoholic or not.
Not alcoholic: through worry;
alcoholic: through the limit of your skills of enumeration and lack of fingers

SC

[Johnniey]

ding, on 2012-01-29 02:10:36, said:

mogandave, on 2012-01-19 21:32:58, said:

If you be alcoholic, one's too many, and a thousand's not enough.

Makes me hum a blues tune, that one.

Definition of an alcoholic;
A man or woman, sitting in an AA meeting, trying to figure out if they're alcoholic or not.

I disagree -  there are many non-alcoholics in AA.

There's a huge difference between 'alcohol abuse' and 'alcohol dependence'.

There are many 'alcohol abusers' that sit in AA meetings and really shouldn't be there. They can't identify with the 'real' alcoholic/ alcohol dependent -  which causes all kinds of problems.

Here are criteria for the 'real' alcoholic/alcohol dependent:- (http://hamsnetwork.org/dependence/)
Alcohol Dependence - Diagnostic Code 303.90
A maladaptive pattern of alcohol use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:
(1) tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
-   a need for markedly increased amounts of alcohol to achieve Intoxication or desired effect
  -  markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of alcohol
(2) Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
-   the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for alcohol (refer to Criteria A and B of the criteria sets for Withdrawal from alcohol)  
-   alcohol (or a closely related drug such as valium) is used to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
(3) alcohol is often used in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended
(4) there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control alcohol use
(5) a great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain alcohol, use alcohol, or recover from its effects
(6) important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of alcohol use
(7) alcohol use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by alcohol (e.g. continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)

Edited by Johnniey, 2012-01-31 12:03:55.

[tjansen]

I am an alcoholic by my own diagnosis.  My life continued to deteriorate when I was drinking alcohol, and most of my problems occurred when I was drinking.  Also, I never stopped because I had had enough to make me feel good, which I thought was the reason I was drinking.

I have now been sober for 30 years, and my life is better and more fulfilling than I ever knew to wish for.  I give the credit for this to working (all) the 12 steps of AA.  Not easy with Steps 4 and 5, but well worth the effort.

Tom

[THAIPHUKET]

Congratulations Tom, truely! It must have been hard to stay dry all these years. As I said, those receptors never really seem to stop craving.

Edited by THAIPHUKET, 2012-02-05 20:36:31.

[Johnniey]

THAIPHUKET, on 2012-02-05 20:35:33, said:

Congratulations Tom, truely! It must have been hard to stay dry all these years. As I said, those receptors never really seem to stop craving.

My cravings stopped after about  1 month quitting and haven't had any since.

[ding]

Johnniey, on 2012-01-31 11:51:35, said:

ding, on 2012-01-29 02:10:36, said:

mogandave, on 2012-01-19 21:32:58, said:

If you be alcoholic, one's too many, and a thousand's not enough.

Makes me hum a blues tune, that one.

Definition of an alcoholic;
A man or woman, sitting in an AA meeting, trying to figure out if they're alcoholic or not.

I disagree -  there are many non-alcoholics in AA.

There's a huge difference between 'alcohol abuse' and 'alcohol dependence'.

There are many 'alcohol abusers' that sit in AA meetings and really shouldn't be there. They can't identify with the 'real' alcoholic/ alcohol dependent -  which causes all kinds of problems.

Here are criteria for the 'real' alcoholic/alcohol dependent:- (http://hamsnetwork.org/dependence/)
Alcohol Dependence - Diagnostic Code 303.90
A maladaptive pattern of alcohol use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:
(1) tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
-   a need for markedly increased amounts of alcohol to achieve Intoxication or desired effect
  -  markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of alcohol
(2) Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
-   the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for alcohol (refer to Criteria A and B of the criteria sets for Withdrawal from alcohol)  
-   alcohol (or a closely related drug such as valium) is used to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
(3) alcohol is often used in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended
(4) there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control alcohol use
(5) a great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain alcohol, use alcohol, or recover from its effects
(6) important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of alcohol use
(7) alcohol use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by alcohol (e.g. continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)

Ah me thinks you think too mut! It's a joke my friend. No worries.
One thing I do know for certain - I don't know shyte. But the good news is - I don't have to.

[StreetCowboy]

ding, on 2012-03-02 18:33:52, said:

Johnniey, on 2012-01-31 11:51:35, said:

ding, on 2012-01-29 02:10:36, said:

mogandave, on 2012-01-19 21:32:58, said:

If you be alcoholic, one's too many, and a thousand's not enough.

Makes me hum a blues tune, that one.

Definition of an alcoholic;
A man or woman, sitting in an AA meeting, trying to figure out if they're alcoholic or not.

I disagree -  there are many non-alcoholics in AA.

There's a huge difference between 'alcohol abuse' and 'alcohol dependence'.

There are many 'alcohol abusers' that sit in AA meetings and really shouldn't be there. They can't identify with the 'real' alcoholic/ alcohol dependent -  which causes all kinds of problems.

Here are criteria for the 'real' alcoholic/alcohol dependent:- (http://hamsnetwork.org/dependence/)
Alcohol Dependence - Diagnostic Code 303.90
A maladaptive pattern of alcohol use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:
(1) tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
-   a need for markedly increased amounts of alcohol to achieve Intoxication or desired effect
  -  markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of alcohol
(2) Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
-   the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for alcohol (refer to Criteria A and B of the criteria sets for Withdrawal from alcohol)  
-   alcohol (or a closely related drug such as valium) is used to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
(3) alcohol is often used in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended
(4) there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control alcohol use
(5) a great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain alcohol, use alcohol, or recover from its effects
(6) important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of alcohol use
(7) alcohol use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by alcohol (e.g. continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)

Ah me thinks you think too mut! It's a joke my friend. No worries.
One thing I do know for certain - I don't know shyte. But the good news is - I don't have to.

I don;'t like to divide the world into two classes of people whether it be black or white, alcoholic or non-alcoholic.
For me, the first beer feels lonely, the second feels thirsty and so on... and I've often been out with people who can go home a lot more easily than I can, but they still develop a thirst the more they drink...

Anyway, "... the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking"; regardless of whatever character defects or illnesses you bring into the Room

SC