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[JulesMad]

The US should have a list for everyone who is NOT on one of their blacklists. This is a lot easier to maintain as almost everybody will be on one (or more) of their blacklists. We can call this list the white-list; it is probably a very small list
But hey, mai pen rai, they are on my blacklist

[scorecard]

geriatrickid, on 2012-01-19 13:31:27, said:

webfact, on 2012-01-19 11:23:11, said:

Democrat MP Deems Nalinee's Appointment to Cabinet Inappropriate

The Democrat MP for Songkhla has questioned the appropriateness of including Nalinee Taveesin in the Yingluck 2 Cabinet, saying she is still on the United States blacklist over her alleged connections with a former Zimbabwean dictator.

Democrat Party MP for Songkhla, Sirichok Sopha, is questioning the appropriateness of the appointment of Nalinee Taveesin as the Prime Minister's Office Minister in the first cabinet reshuffle for the Yingluck Shinawatra government, saying she is still on the United States blacklist over her alleged business connections with former Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe.

Oddly enough, such concern does not extend to an accused murderer sitting in the Democrat caucus.
Outrage is indeed justified in this cas,e but the Democrats lost the moral higher ground when they did not remove the alleged murderer from their caucus.

And for the record so that there is no ambiguity, I believe that Nalinee Taveesin  must not be appointed to any cabinet position until she clears her name. It is unacceptable that a representative of the government be mixed up in something like this. It is  unacceptable and disgusting. The PM should show some backbone.

So should the red shirt man also be unacceptable for a cabinet post?

Edited by scorecard, 2012-01-19 15:41:04.

[wintermute]

I don't see anything objectionable with this underworld crime figure being on a blacklist. The E.U. bans similar shady individuals so the crybaby whiners and bandwagon USA haters can get off the pram at the next elementary school stop so the grown ups can talk. The fact of the matter is Thailand is full of underworld crime figures and mafia types who are involved in all sorts of shady schemes abroad. The country is a well known crossroads for this sort of activity.

[flying]

Tanaka, on 2012-01-19 15:14:51, said:

If you would stand up and look around you, you would notice that the US and the world around us, is very different from when the Constitution was written.

The principles that America was built on is what made us great.
I agree the US is very different & hopefully we can return to that which we once expounded.

The world is not different in many ways & John Quincy Adams speech on Foreign Policy in 1821
is more valid today
http://www.fff.org/c...AdamsPolicy.asp

Edited by flying, 2012-01-19 15:34:56.

[flying]

wintermute, on 2012-01-19 15:26:35, said:

haters can get off the pram at the next elementary school stop so the grown ups can talk.

You bring up an interesting point.

I live in the USA & am as much a patriot in the true sense of the word as you will find.

But I often wonder while reading the slamming Thailand takes here on this forum.
I wonder if most of these folks doing the slamming live in Thailand?

If so what is stopping them from getting off the pram as you say?

Surely they can do better?

I only visit 3 months a year but I visit because I like it.
I have no problem with what they do with *their* country.

But I do wonder about the haters as you call them

[bigbamboo]

Might have been a better idea to appoint someone a trade minister who was acceptable to all nations. Maybe the Thai government feels trade with the US will not be so important as they will likely be buying their hom mali rice from VietNam from now on? And on the plus side her Zimbabwean connections could help any Thais who wish to develop business interests there.

[wintermute]

bigbamboo, on 2012-01-19 15:47:01, said:

Might have been a better idea to appoint someone a trade minister who was acceptable to all nations. Maybe the Thai government feels trade with the US will not be so important as they will likely be buying their hom mali rice from VietNam from now on? And on the plus side her Zimbabwean connections could help any Thais who wish to develop business interests there.

It's amazing how they rationalize having mafia like figures at all levels of the government. I wonder how many Thai politicians are simultaneously on Interpol and U.S. blacklists. I bet it would be a pretty percentage.

[Dave9000]

GW Bush deals in oil with the Bin Laden family and becomes President. Taveesin deals with Mugabe, yet she, apparently, is the arse. Brilliant!!

[Lotusbluete]

webfact, on 2012-01-19 11:23:11, said:

Democrat MP Deems Nalinee's Appointment to Cabinet Inappropriate

The Democrat MP for Songkhla has questioned the appropriateness of including Nalinee Taveesin in the Yingluck 2 Cabinet, saying she is still on the United States blacklist over her alleged connections with a former Zimbabwean dictator.

Democrat Party MP for Songkhla, Sirichok Sopha, is questioning the appropriateness of the appointment of Nalinee Taveesin as the Prime Minister's Office Minister in the first cabinet reshuffle for the Yingluck Shinawatra government, saying she is still on the United States blacklist over her alleged business connections with former Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe.


Nalinee was blacklisted by the U.S. authorities in 2008. Sirichok said Nalinee's appointment is not unlawful, but it is inappropriate because her links to the Zimbabwean dictator conflict with the Pheu Thai Party's and the red-shirt group's stance to promote democracy.

Meanwhile, the incoming minister claimed the incident was a misunderstanding, adding that her lawyer said it was merely an allegation and there was no need to pursue further legal action.

She admitted to being acquainted with Mugabe because her work has allowed her to meet with many international political figures.

However, Nalinee denied having done business with him as alleged by some, and said the kind of conflicts the African dictator was involved in is not her business.

Nalinee reiterated that she has fulfilled the qualifications set out by the Constitution, since she was appointed as a trade envoy, and said the issue was brought up to discredit her.


-- Tan Network 2012-01-19

1.    I do not understand why TAN Network calls Mugabe the “former” dictator. Is Ian Smith back (from the grave!)? As far as I know Mugabe is still president of the then Rhodesia and he is still living in the then city of Salisbury.


2.    I think the US has every right to put somebody on a blacklist. A.) The US is an independent state and has their absolute right to do so, and B.) I am quite sure the US does not put somebody on a black list just for nothing. I  can imagine that their have their reasons for it


3.    I think on the other hand that also Thailand is an independent state and has the absolute right to name anybody it whishes as minister. I am sure Mrs. Nalinee can travel to many, many countries in this world like Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia etc without facing any difficulties


4.    If Mrs. Nalinee was put on a blacklist already in 2008 and if it is all a “misunderstanding” as she claims, why has she not cleared her name in the past 4 years? Very strange indeed.

And to all those who criticize the US for their sanctions: What other should the US do against this undemocratic regime of Mugabe? Invade like in Iraq?

[xthAi76s]

flying, on 2012-01-19 08:20:42, said:

The US should return to what its forefathers preached/taught

Keep their long nose out of others business & do not go abroad in search of monsters.

Sanctions like those against Cuba for instance are silly & long overdue for a change.
US citizens not allowed to buy some product because their government has a decades old beef
with someone is silly.

Now we extend that silliness to folks who are not even US citizens & blacklist them?
insanity has no limits in these cases.

Before the usual suspects chime in with anti-USA rhetoric........
Let me say I am as patriotic a person as you will find.

I live in the USA & am proud of our heritage.
I like the fact we are a Constitutional Republic & hope we keep it
that way by protecting what out founders laid out.

These days it is changing fast as we slip down a slippery slope

Our founders stole an entire country from natives who were already inhabiting it.  We shouldn't be so naive to think that the world would be better if the US kept its 'nose out of other countries' business'.  Someone will fill the role as it's a function of human nature -- not nationality or national character.  You can't name a strong 'empire' at any point in history which did not exert its influence on those it could.

[wolf5370]

flying, on 2012-01-19 08:20:42, said:

The US should return to what its forefathers preached/taught

Keep their long nose out of others business & do not go abroad in search of monsters.

Sanctions like those against Cuba for instance are silly & long overdue for a change.
US citizens not allowed to buy some product because their government has a decades old beef
with someone is silly.

Now we extend that silliness to folks who are not even US citizens & blacklist them?
insanity has no limits in these cases.

Before the usual suspects chime in with anti-USA rhetoric........
Let me say I am as patriotic a person as you will find.

I live in the USA & am proud of our heritage.
I like the fact we are a Constitutional Republic & hope we keep it
that way by protecting what out founders laid out.

These days it is changing fast as we slip down a slippery slope

Yes that worked out wondefully for Rowanda didn't it - so, lets sit back and let these dispots commit genocide and mass murder, hey it not our lads and lasses is it? If you like the USA and are proud of it's heritage, then you should be appauled by the sentiment in what you wrote. Shame on you.

There are times when intervention is questionable - when it leaves the people in a worse state than they had before - when money or oil is involved inparticular. However, there are people in this world, so called leaders, who are deadly - dangerous - and really need to be removed. The powerful have an obligation to protect the weak, wherever they are, and however unappreciated it is. The fact that Britain took up sword against the mighty German Axis as it cut a swathe through Europe is morally just, brave and laudable. That the USA helped, and evetually took up arms when an attack came (Lucitania or Pearl Harbour) is likewise laudable. How much better would it have been for 6 million Jews and 10 million Russian if Hitler had been clamped down upon early and forced from office (with a good carrot and stick approach), if Pol Pot had been removed before the mountains of skulls, Idi Armin, Mao Zedong, the list goes on. War is what happens eventually (or genocide if completely ignored - Rowanda), when we are forced to act - by using sanctions and embargos and penalising those that break them using fiscal means (i.e. you deal with those we have sanctions against, you lose the right to deal with us in any way) and making them unwelcome, is the unbloodiest of all measures and avert wars and genocides.

So, be proud of your country (and those like it) in this regard, because the leaders there DO think about these things, DO weigh up the issues and DO act in a morally just and non-selfish way sometimes and those times should honour you - not fail you.

Edited by wolf5370, 2012-01-19 17:58:06.

[diehard60]

REM, on 2012-01-19 06:58:59, said:

She didn't violate Thai law, so technically it's ok. But I think her reputation will have a negative effect. And everyone accused is always innocent! What do you expect from a party that lets a fugitive hold campaign rallies?

Not much different from what you are suggesting and what the yellow shirts have done in the past.

[AleG]

bigbamboo, on 2012-01-19 15:47:01, said:

Might have been a better idea to appoint someone a trade minister who was acceptable to all nations. Maybe the Thai government feels trade with the US will not be so important as they will likely be buying their hom mali rice from VietNam from now on? And on the plus side her Zimbabwean connections could help any Thais who wish to develop business interests there.

Thais having business interests in Zimbabwe? How ridiculous!

Oh, wait...

Thaksin bought mines valued in the billions in Zimbabwe. I guess the new Trade Minister having links to Mugabe is a mere coincidence but how convenient!

Incidentally, wouldn't Thaksin's dealings in Zimbabwe also place him in this blacklist?

[khunken]

wolf5370, on 2012-01-19 17:48:02, said:

flying, on 2012-01-19 08:20:42, said:

The US should return to what its forefathers preached/taught

Keep their long nose out of others business & do not go abroad in search of monsters.

Sanctions like those against Cuba for instance are silly & long overdue for a change.
US citizens not allowed to buy some product because their government has a decades old beef
with someone is silly.

Now we extend that silliness to folks who are not even US citizens & blacklist them?
insanity has no limits in these cases.

Before the usual suspects chime in with anti-USA rhetoric........
Let me say I am as patriotic a person as you will find.

I live in the USA & am proud of our heritage.
I like the fact we are a Constitutional Republic & hope we keep it
that way by protecting what out founders laid out.

These days it is changing fast as we slip down a slippery slope

Yes that worked out wondefully for Rowanda didn't it - so, lets sit back and let these dispots commit genocide and mass murder, hey it not our lads and lasses is it? If you like the USA and are proud of it's heritage, then you should be appauled by the sentiment in what you wrote. Shame on you.

There are times when intervention is questionable - when it leaves the people in a worse state than they had before - when money or oil is involved inparticular. However, there are people in this world, so called leaders, who are deadly - dangerous - and really need to be removed. The powerful have an obligation to protect the weak, wherever they are, and however unappreciated it is. The fact that Britain took up sword against the mighty German Axis as it cut a swathe through Europe is morally just, brave and laudable. That the USA helped, and evetually took up arms when an attack came (Lucitania or Pearl Harbour) is likewise laudable. How much better would it have been for 6 million Jews and 10 million Russian if Hitler had been clamped down upon early and forced from office (with a good carrot and stick approach), if Pol Pot had been removed before the mountains of skulls, Idi Armin, Mao Zedong, the list goes on. War is what happens eventually (or genocide if completely ignored - Rowanda), when we are forced to act - by using sanctions and embargos and penalising those that break them using fiscal means (i.e. you deal with those we have sanctions against, you lose the right to deal with us in any way) and making them unwelcome, is the unbloodiest of all measures and avert wars and genocides.

So, be proud of your country (and those like it) in this regard, because the leaders there DO think about these things, DO weigh up the issues and DO act in a morally just and non-selfish way sometimes and those times should honour you - not fail you.

The problem with what you say is that it is not consistant. Mubarak, Ali (Tunisia), Musharraf have all been supported by the US in recent years. Plus the US's blind support for Israel, which has a far worse human rights record than Zimbawbe, demonstrates that the US is highly selective in who it sanctions. Since WWII the US has had an appalling record of supporting (& even installing) dictators.

I do agree however that sanctions are far more preferable to invasions (i.e.warmongering). Maybe it's time for Thailand to set up a sanctioning body & put on it a few famous people with a lot of blood on their hands.

[Oberkommando]

Moneyed Thai in immoral, dubious and possibly corrupt dealings overseas non-shock.

Nauseating people.

[bumpkin]

When it comes to appointing members of the government, we might feel some sympathy for the Prime Minister.

It is possible that the Prime Minisiter has a meagre and uninspiring  list of talent to draw from.

[Old Man River]

wolf5370, on 2012-01-19 17:48:02, said:

flying, on 2012-01-19 08:20:42, said:

The US should return to what its forefathers preached/taught

Keep their long nose out of others business & do not go abroad in search of monsters.

Sanctions like those against Cuba for instance are silly & long overdue for a change.
US citizens not allowed to buy some product because their government has a decades old beef
with someone is silly.

Now we extend that silliness to folks who are not even US citizens & blacklist them?
insanity has no limits in these cases.

Before the usual suspects chime in with anti-USA rhetoric........
Let me say I am as patriotic a person as you will find.

I live in the USA & am proud of our heritage.
I like the fact we are a Constitutional Republic & hope we keep it
that way by protecting what out founders laid out.

These days it is changing fast as we slip down a slippery slope

Yes that worked out wondefully for Rowanda didn't it - so, lets sit back and let these dispots commit genocide and mass murder, hey it not our lads and lasses is it? If you like the USA and are proud of it's heritage, then you should be appauled by the sentiment in what you wrote. Shame on you.

There are times when intervention is questionable - when it leaves the people in a worse state than they had before - when money or oil is involved inparticular. However, there are people in this world, so called leaders, who are deadly - dangerous - and really need to be removed. The powerful have an obligation to protect the weak, wherever they are, and however unappreciated it is. The fact that Britain took up sword against the mighty German Axis as it cut a swathe through Europe is morally just, brave and laudable. That the USA helped, and evetually took up arms when an attack came (Lucitania or Pearl Harbour) is likewise laudable. How much better would it have been for 6 million Jews and 10 million Russian if Hitler had been clamped down upon early and forced from office (with a good carrot and stick approach), if Pol Pot had been removed before the mountains of skulls, Idi Armin, Mao Zedong, the list goes on. War is what happens eventually (or genocide if completely ignored - Rowanda), when we are forced to act - by using sanctions and embargos and penalising those that break them using fiscal means (i.e. you deal with those we have sanctions against, you lose the right to deal with us in any way) and making them unwelcome, is the unbloodiest of all measures and avert wars and genocides.

So, be proud of your country (and those like it) in this regard, because the leaders there DO think about these things, DO weigh up the issues and DO act in a morally just and non-selfish way sometimes and those times should honour you - not fail you.

A little over the top don't you think? Let's not forget it wasn't too long ago that we (proud Americans) were told pretty much the same about the military junta in Myanmar. Now, we are being told maybe they aren't that bad after all.  

It is politics.  

Joy facilitated a transaction (not my words). She was an agent to a transaction. She didn't own the items, nor did she buy them. We know who the owner was. Nobody is hiding that, but the US government is not blacklisting the buyer are they?  Why not? It is politics. It was and always will be.

[SlyAnimal]

Blah blah blah.......... she didn't do anything illegal, all she did, was business with the wife of someone who America says is a bad man.

If you were a shop owner, and some big as mafia boss's wife came into your shop and wanted to buy something, would you turn her away because her husband is a "bad man"?

Or if you were looking for wealthy customers, and thought that the wife of a mafia boss might be interested in buying your goods, would you not contact them, and not do business with them?

Simply replace mafia boss, with African Dictator and you've got her situation.

[wintermute]

SlyAnimal, on 2012-01-19 20:20:32, said:

Blah blah blah.......... she didn't do anything illegal, all she did, was business with the wife of someone who America says is a bad man.

A bad man who is a known genocidal maniac who finances other terrorist regimes and keeps his country in near collapse to fuel his own lavish lifestyle. Anyone personally connected with this man is shady. This is especially true if you have a sidebusiness shuttling blood gems to and fro SE Asia (hub or organized crime) to a dictator. Being a part of the financial laundering pipeline is obvious complicity with high profile criminals.

[Old Man River]

SlyAnimal, on 2012-01-19 20:20:32, said:

Blah blah blah.......... she didn't do anything illegal, all she did, was business with the wife of someone who America says is a bad man.

If you were a shop owner, and some big as mafia boss's wife came into your shop and wanted to buy something, would you turn her away because her husband is a "bad man"?

Or if you were looking for wealthy customers, and thought that the wife of a mafia boss might be interested in buying your goods, would you not contact them, and not do business with them?

Simply replace mafia boss, with African Dictator and you've got her situation.

A little bit different of a situation, but at the end of the day we agree.

In this case, she didn't own the goods and she didn't buy them. The seller (dictator) is already blacklisted. As the agent, she has been blacklisted. The buyer has not been blacklisted. Why not? On the buy side, politically she was an easier target.

[Briggsy]

What exactly does a PM Office's Minister control?

[timewilltell]

chooka, on 2012-01-19 10:43:06, said:

bendejo, on 2012-01-19 10:12:24, said:

The Zimbabwe investment could be a sucker move, as the mine could be taken over by 'the government' at some point, either by the current slime or a future version.

Quite true, only a fool would invest in Zimbabwe the government can sieze all your assets at a whim and there is nothing you can do about it.  I am sure there are many expats who could tell a story or 2 about this.

The Thais can seize your assets on a whim too - especially property assets in which you may have a minority interest.

[Old Man River]

Briggsy, on 2012-01-19 20:46:49, said:

What exactly does a PM Office's Minister control?

Basically to do whatever the PM needs done by a trusted individual that doesn't fall specifically at the moment into another minister's portfolio, but probably will if it is deemed important enough at a later date.

OK, this doesn't make sense to me either. Give me another chance.

It is political payback for previous services rendered. Yeh, that is more like it.

[pastitche]

wintermute, on 2012-01-19 15:26:35, said:

I don't see anything objectionable with this underworld crime figure being on a blacklist. The E.U. bans similar shady individuals so the crybaby whiners and bandwagon USA haters can get off the pram at the next elementary school stop so the grown ups can talk. The fact of the matter is Thailand is full of underworld crime figures and mafia types who are involved in all sorts of shady schemes abroad. The country is a well known crossroads for this sort of activity.

So what crimes has "this underworld committed" ? I am interested because I would like to be there when the grown ups talk

[antipodesant]

REM, on 2012-01-19 06:58:59, said:

She didn't violate Thai law, so technically it's ok. But I think her reputation will have a negative effect. And everyone accused is always innocent! What do you expect from a party that lets a fugitive hold campaign rallies?

Tecnically it's OK "In Thailand" but we are talking about the US 'that is where she has been blacklisted and rightly so"