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[newermonkey]

I was watching a discovery doco about elephants in africa attacking and killing people out of revenge to people killing thair familly members.
Apparently when a baby elephant sees its mother, farther or siblings being murdered it will remember for the rest of its life and will take any opportunity to seek its revenge.
This would be very dangerous in Thailand as people are close to elephants, and when an elephant wants to kill someone it will do it very easily.

[blackthorn2005]

Buchholz, on 2012-01-24 07:25:51, said:

Quote

one government official alleged that these animals were killed to provide elephant meat and sexual organs for consumption at wildlife "bush-meat" restaurants on Phuket, for visiting foreign tourists

It seems like a deliberately made-up claim, for whatever reason

The reason is rudimentary and common place.

It displaces the blame onto foreigners as the reason for the killing of elephants... instead of on the locals.

.

They are filling a gap in the market, not that makes it right.  The gap is the Chinese tourists and the number of them visiting is getting bigger, so you will see more of this, dead tigers and 'finned' sharks.

[Johpa]

IAMHERE, on 2012-01-25 07:26:14, said:

Simple solution would to be close down the elephant camps. Certainly stop the elephant polo. More certainly STOP advertising elephants by the Tourist Authority of Thailand literature, website and travel trade shows.

Ah yes, we could close down the elephant camps and then freeze all the meat that would result from the necessary culling, unless of course we were to waste the meat by allowing the pachyderms to starve to death.  But what would more likely happen is that the now unemployed elephants would be unshackeled and allowed to roam wild again and they would likely be roaming into the gardens of the now unemployed elephant camp workers living near the now disestablished elephant camps. Well at least then the meat from the now dead elephant shot to protect the regular food source of the hungry villagers would go to feed the newly unemployed and not some Chinese or Korean tourist.

[Buchholz]

Buchholz, on 2012-01-24 07:25:51, said:

Quote

one government official alleged that these animals were killed to provide elephant meat and sexual organs for consumption at wildlife "bush-meat" restaurants on Phuket, for visiting foreign tourists

It seems like a deliberately made-up claim, for whatever reason

The reason is rudimentary and common place.

It displaces the blame onto foreigners as the reason for the killing of elephants... instead of on the locals.

foreign tourists or local tourists?


Thais' new taste in elephant meat risks extinction

Associated Press - Jan. 26, 2012

A wildlife official says a worrisome new practice of Thais consuming elephant meat could threaten the national animal with extinction.

Damrong Phidet, the head of Thailand's conservation agency, said Thursday the authorities became aware of the practice among Thais after two wild elephants were found slaughtered in a national park earlier this month.

He said poachers took the elephants' sex organs and trunks to eat. Some Asian cultures believe that consuming animals' reproductive organs can boost sexual prowess.

Continues:
http://seattletimes....syndication=rss

Edited by Buchholz, 2012-01-26 20:52:57.

[Buchholz]

and yet another article today are yet another reason or two for the elephant numbers being under threat...


With the recent reports of widespread elephant poaching and killing for ivories, the number of Thai pachyderms has been reducing significantly.

Besides, the animals have also fallen victims to attacks and road accidents. Many wild elephants have become crippled and died.

NNT - Jan. 26, 2012

http://thainews.prd....id=255501260012

Edited by Buchholz, 2012-01-26 20:52:32.

[PoodMaiDai]

Buchholz, on 2012-01-24 07:25:51, said:

Quote

one government official alleged that these animals were killed to provide elephant meat and sexual organs for consumption at wildlife "bush-meat" restaurants on Phuket, for visiting foreign tourists

It seems like a deliberately made-up claim, for whatever reason

The reason is rudimentary and common place.

It displaces the blame onto foreigners as the reason for the killing of elephants... instead of on the locals.

.

Bingo.

[el jefe]

Blame does belong on the tourists.

The logic on this and other threads is baffling. Some are saying that without the elephant camps the domesticated elephants will starve to death. Then why in the world are they all breeding more??? The elephant camps are not there to protect domesticated elephants. They are there to generate profits. If tourists are more than happy to hand over fees to sit on an elephant's back while it walks down a country road, you can't blame the Thais for wanting some of that money.

At last count there were 9 elephant camps in the Mae Tang area. There are 5 or 6 more in the Mae Wang/Mae win area south of Chiang Mai. That doesn't include the two big ones at Mae Sa and Chiang Dao. There are also at least two young elephants that are forced to walk the streets of Chiang Mai helping their owners beg for money.

Where do you think all the elephants are coming from? And if there wasn't a demand from tourists, do you think there would be new elephant camps popping up every month?

[Dibbler]

el jefe, on 2012-01-27 08:15:38, said:

Blame does belong on the tourists.

The logic on this and other threads is baffling. Some are saying that without the elephant camps the domesticated elephants will starve to death. Then why in the world are they all breeding more??? The elephant camps are not there to protect domesticated elephants. They are there to generate profits. If tourists are more than happy to hand over fees to sit on an elephant's back while it walks down a country road, you can't blame the Thais for wanting some of that money.

At last count there were 9 elephant camps in the Mae Tang area. There are 5 or 6 more in the Mae Wang/Mae win area south of Chiang Mai. That doesn't include the two big ones at Mae Sa and Chiang Dao. There are also at least two young elephants that are forced to walk the streets of Chiang Mai helping their owners beg for money.

Where do you think all the elephants are coming from? And if there wasn't a demand from tourists, do you think there would be new elephant camps popping up every month?

The problem facing wild elephants is roughly the same as that for tigers.  We have the Tiger Temple in Kanchanaburi, and tigers in various private zoos and collections around the country attracting tourists who get their photograph taken with the animal.  This too is encouraging poaching of tigers from the wild, and from across the border in neighbouring countries.  Like the elephant camps, the places where these tigers are kept are sometimes fronts for smuggling businesses, with animals coming in staying a while and they being shipped to other places, even other countries.  The Wildlife Law badly needs a complete rewrite, with facilities that keep wild animals having to register all animals in their care, and restrictions on numbers of animals they can keep.  Elephants and tigers should be microchipped so they can be traced when they are traded and moved around the country.  It's a problem of having a system and enforcing it, and as we know, enforcement in this country or lack of it, is the real issue.

[el jefe]

Dibbler, on 2012-01-27 08:43:33, said:

el jefe, on 2012-01-27 08:15:38, said:

Blame does belong on the tourists.

The logic on this and other threads is baffling. Some are saying that without the elephant camps the domesticated elephants will starve to death. Then why in the world are they all breeding more??? The elephant camps are not there to protect domesticated elephants. They are there to generate profits. If tourists are more than happy to hand over fees to sit on an elephant's back while it walks down a country road, you can't blame the Thais for wanting some of that money.

At last count there were 9 elephant camps in the Mae Tang area. There are 5 or 6 more in the Mae Wang/Mae win area south of Chiang Mai. That doesn't include the two big ones at Mae Sa and Chiang Dao. There are also at least two young elephants that are forced to walk the streets of Chiang Mai helping their owners beg for money.

Where do you think all the elephants are coming from? And if there wasn't a demand from tourists, do you think there would be new elephant camps popping up every month?

The problem facing wild elephants is roughly the same as that for tigers.  We have the Tiger Temple in Kanchanaburi, and tigers in various private zoos and collections around the country attracting tourists who get their photograph taken with the animal.  This too is encouraging poaching of tigers from the wild, and from across the border in neighbouring countries.  Like the elephant camps, the places where these tigers are kept are sometimes fronts for smuggling businesses, with animals coming in staying a while and they being shipped to other places, even other countries.  The Wildlife Law badly needs a complete rewrite, with facilities that keep wild animals having to register all animals in their care, and restrictions on numbers of animals they can keep.  Elephants and tigers should be microchipped so they can be traced when they are traded and moved around the country.  It's a problem of having a system and enforcing it, and as we know, enforcement in this country or lack of it, is the real issue.

I agree. But part of the solution would be to stop breeding captive animals to entertain tourists. And that's up to the tourists to say "no". Tiger Kingdom in Chiang Mai has 20-30 tigers, yet they claim that none of them are over 2 years old. They don't say where they're selling them to after they turn 2.

[Fantastic5]

Best post i have seen in along time, good to make people awear of these rings.

Tourests From all over support these ventures unknowingly every time they visit these places, as said before node and no product, it's not high on locals lists to go to such places.

If each place keepingy elephants had the elephants DNA tested and the plane regularly inspected the approved by the nesasery government body, it reduce these numbers very rapidly followed by  the death penalty for people buying, selling and taking bribes  in such ventures.

[cowslip]

THere are vitally no animal cruelty laws in Thailand and still a vast ignorance of wildlife and conservation - couple this with an indelibly corrupt workforce and management and you have a recipe for repeated incidents like this. They have been talked about on this web site before - I think it is actually quite surprising that some posters seem either unaware of or surprised by this situation.

[Bakeman]

MONEY

[Johpa]

Fantastic5, on 2012-02-09 19:13:03, said:

If each place keepingy elephants had the elephants DNA tested and the plane regularly inspected the approved by the nesasery government body, it reduce these numbers very rapidly followed by  the death penalty for people buying, selling and taking bribes  in such ventures.

For what it is worth, there is suppose to be ownership documents for all non-wild elephants. The elephant that we use to own had such a document and that document was transferred to the the new owner when we sold the elephant several years ago.

There are two intermingled narratives here. Make no mistake, they aren't shoooting 10 year old elephants for the ivory, fully adult males perhaps, but not youngsters.  That is why fully developed tuskers are rarely left out in the forests unattended.  The relatively recent killing of wild elephants for meat is to feed the increased culinary demands from the now more commonly seen wealthy Chinese tourists from the PRC to their southern most monthorn. But of course criticism of the Chinese in Thailand rates right up there with lese majeste.

And then there is the issue of the elephant camps for the trained "domesticated" elephants who can no longer find employment in logging.  And yes, unemployed elephants often go hungry.  One could take all the elephants in all the camps up north and transport them to the few uninahabiated reserve areas, but then they are even more susceptible to poaching and eventually, given the bounded nature of such reserve areas, would be subject to culling.  There are no perfect solutions here, but clearly the camps are one part of the less than perfect solutions available.

Quote

it's not high on locals lists to go to such places.

What?!?  Last time I was at the Mae Sa elephant camp there were loads of Thais visiting.  The elephant camps are very popular destinations for Thais.

[cowslip]

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Quote

Quote

If each place keepingy elephants had the elephants DNA tested and the plane regularly inspected the approved by the nesasery government body, it reduce these numbers very rapidly followed by the death penalty for people buying, selling and taking bribes in such ventures.

For what it is worth, there is suppose to be ownership documents for all non-wild elephants. The elephant that we use to own had such a document and that document was transferred to the the new owner when we sold the elephant several years ago. There are two intermingled narratives here. Make no mistake, they aren&#39;t shoooting 10 year old elephants for the ivory, fully adult males perhaps, but not youngsters. That is why fully developed tuskers are rarely left out in the forests unattended. The relatively recent killing of wild elephants for meat is to feed the increased culinary demands from the now more commonly seen wealthy Chinese tourists from the PRC to their southern most monthorn. But of course criticism of the Chinese in Thailand rates right up there with lese majeste. And then there is the issue of the elephant camps for the trained &quot;domesticated&quot; elephants who can no longer find employment in logging. And yes, unemployed elephants often go hungry. One could take all the elephants in all the camps up north and transport them to the few uninahabiated reserve areas, but then they are even more susceptible to poaching and eventually, given the bounded nature of such reserve areas, would be subject to culling. There are no perfect solutions here, but clearly the camps are one part of the less than perfect solutions available.

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it&#39;s not high on locals lists to go to such places.

What?!? Last time I was at the Mae Sa elephant camp there were loads of Thais visiting. The elephant camps are very popular destinations for Thais.

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[KhaoTan]

Does anyone have experience with the Elephant Mahout Project, located South of Pattaya?  I have a relative who wants to work with the elephants and she is thinking about booking with them, but I want to be very careful not to support a camp which uses poached elephants or is inhumane.  Any feedback/comments about this place would be appreciated!

Their website says they are non-profit, and it all looks legit, but I have not been able to find anyone who has experienced participating in this particular camp.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[harada]

DocN, on 2012-01-24 16:53:41, said:

Yep...them dam foreigners again!
Here is an idea to think about: next time, some foreign tourist demands something illegal or immoral...how about saying "NO!"?

Sounds like the 50th thing you will not heard said in thailand.