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[rufanuf]

Hi,

Im trying to figure out why someone would spend say 25 to 30BHTon one of the lightwieght "breezeblock" type products versus for example
simple concrete blocks made by locals at 4bht a piece, also the small terracotta bricks that are mere Satangs a piece.

Has anyone done a compartive analysis of these 3 types of building materials to ascertain which one actually represents good value?

Ruf

[sezze]

Well , you answered your own question . I'm thinking you mean the q-con block vs concrete ( breeze ) and small red ones .
Q-con can have a bit faster building time , and has better insulation properties ( when you have sunny walls it does matter .. but not a great deal IMHO ) and might have a straighter finish . You also save on cement since they are put together with only very minor amounts .
Breeze blocks , vary a lot in quality , some are pretty rigid , others are extremely brittle . It is depending on the manufacturer . A bit slower then q-con , still decent insulation . It is the preferred building block for the majority of homes .
Red bricks , are small so a lot of cement needed and more building time . They are not the same quality as in the western world , but are stronger then the breeze blocks . Insulation properties are by far the worst of the 3 .
The breeze blocks ( concrete ) are the winner in price/performance in all categories . Insulation properties are a bit worse then the Q-cons but doubling up the wall , they are still quite a bit cheaper and have probably better insulation value then the q-cons .  Red bricks are probably the worst , due to their extented building time and a lot of cement needed . However they do have their qualities , and are used in many homes as part of the construction ( as gap filler and small things which are a major hassle with the big blocks ) .

[Naam]

if you want to save a few Baht use the shitty "red brick / lots of mortar method".

[bankruatsteve]

Superblock/Q-Con is the best value.

[sezze]

bankruatsteve, on 2012-01-29 21:03:54, said:

Superblock/Q-Con is the best value.

Best value on what points ?? Breeze blocks are way cheaper , and have near the same building time . Insulation value of the Q-con is the best , but doubling up the breeze blocks gives probably better value then the q-con . The prize difference is , even with doubled walls , still quite something . I do not see the value of the Q-con blocks .

[Khun Jean]

What about the red blocks with normal amounts of mortar?
Would this not be the strongest, even load bearing if that is what you need?

[klikster]

Who are the manufacturers / suppliers of high quality breeze blocks? About what percentage of cost difference should someone see between good and not-so-good quality blocks?

[janverbeem]

klikster, on 2012-01-29 23:03:22, said:

Who are the manufacturers / suppliers of high quality breeze blocks? About what percentage of cost difference should someone see between good and not-so-good quality blocks?

Chonburi concrete ( CCP) is one of the manufacturers of the better quality breeze blocks.They also have them in different sizes.can't comment on the price as it was several years ago I contacted them regarding these blocks but I recall that the difference was not that much.

[Pib]

Gosh, I had to lookup what a breeze block was (a.k.a., a cinder block).  Link.  That's what I get for being American.

[Naam]

Khun Jean, on 2012-01-29 23:01:58, said:

What about the red blocks with normal amounts of mortar?
Would this not be the strongest, even load bearing if that is what you need?

you have to import labour because it's impossible for thai bricklayers to use normal amounts of mortar even when threatened at gunpoint.

[necronx99]

Unmentioned advantage and disadvantage of the superblock.

If you are doing anything 'unusual' in the construction it is very easy to work and shape into curves and other shapes, similar to wood in many respects.
If you plan on hanging anything on the walls it is weak and special fixings are required, particualrly for heavy items like a plasma.

[Naam]

necronx99, on 2012-01-30 05:51:01, said:

Unmentioned advantage and disadvantage of the superblock.

If you are doing anything 'unusual' in the construction it is very easy to work and shape into curves and other shapes, similar to wood in many respects.
If you plan on hanging anything on the walls it is weak and special fixings are required, particualrly for heavy items like a plasma.

FAIRY TALE! NOTHING special required, walls are NOT weak! this is the second home i built with superblock, living in it since 6½ years, everything is fixed with normal wall anchors and screws including upper kitchen cupboards loaded with heavy crockery and glass items.

[sezze]

janverbeem, on 2012-01-29 23:12:48, said:

klikster, on 2012-01-29 23:03:22, said:

Who are the manufacturers / suppliers of high quality breeze blocks? About what percentage of cost difference should someone see between good and not-so-good quality blocks?

Chonburi concrete ( CCP) is one of the manufacturers of the better quality breeze blocks.They also have them in different sizes.can't comment on the price as it was several years ago I contacted them regarding these blocks but I recall that the difference was not that much.

This might be the case in your area . Nearly every town got it's block maker . Prices are all near the same mark . In my case , a town approx 15km away provides a lot stronger blocks and is 0.5 baht cheaper then the one in town . When needing 200 blocks or so , they cannot bring it , but when ordering 1000 or more they do cover the distance .
Also , the blocks are strong enough to hold a plasma screen without any trouble , do not forget the blocks/wall are rendered which does provide plenty of additional strenght . Q-con indeed has the advantages of sawing the blocks to precision , where the breeze blocks in many cases are adapted to chapes using mortar/cement and red blocks . I still do not see the value , unless q-con goes down to 15 baht orso . It is a good building material , but in terms of value q-con scores worse then breeze blocks for sure .

[necronx99]

Naam, on 2012-01-30 06:48:30, said:

necronx99, on 2012-01-30 05:51:01, said:

Unmentioned advantage and disadvantage of the superblock.

If you are doing anything 'unusual' in the construction it is very easy to work and shape into curves and other shapes, similar to wood in many respects.
If you plan on hanging anything on the walls it is weak and special fixings are required, particualrly for heavy items like a plasma.

FAIRY TALE! NOTHING special required, walls are NOT weak! this is the second home i built with superblock, living in it since 6½ years, everything is fixed with normal wall anchors and screws including upper kitchen cupboards loaded with heavy crockery and glass items.

Happy stand corrected Naam, my lumpy brown friend.
If we are going to get along here you are going to have to accept the fact that quite often, I have absolutely no idea what I am talking about!

[necronx99]

Speaking sf superblocks, do you think they would be suitable to use for the base, surround and facade of a woodfired oven?

[bankruatsteve]

The "breeze blocks" are cheap for a reason:  They are crap.  I wouldn't use them for anything but a podium for the spirit house much less home construction.  Put your hand on the wall built from breeze block after the sun has been on it for a few hours.  You may not be able to keep it there.  Use the red brick if you need to save money at the expense of decent insulation.

[rufanuf]

My suspiscion was that, anything costing around 25bht to 30bht a piece is going to have a hard time justifyits value against something that cost 4bht a piece!

[Kwasaki]

That's right !!  Local common concrete blocks in twin wall construction with insulation between, render after the cheapest best way to go, there not crap at all IMO.

Edited by Kwasaki, 2012-01-30 16:09:56.

[sezze]

bankruatsteve, on 2012-01-30 15:47:26, said:

The "breeze blocks" are cheap for a reason:  They are crap.  I wouldn't use them for anything but a podium for the spirit house much less home construction.  Put your hand on the wall built from breeze block after the sun has been on it for a few hours.  You may not be able to keep it there.  Use the red brick if you need to save money at the expense of decent insulation.

rufanuf, on 2012-01-30 15:47:41, said:

My suspiscion was that, anything costing around 25bht to 30bht a piece is going to have a hard time justifyits value against something that cost 4bht a piece!

Kwasaki, on 2012-01-30 16:08:43, said:

That's right !!  Local common concrete blocks in twin wall construction with insulation between, render after the cheapest best way to go, there not crap at all IMO.

A , design your house in shadows and or with big overhangs and there will be no sun on the walls . Doubling up the walls would fix the solar problem if you do have it .
B , indeed , in order to be competitive in form of value , it's price has to drop drastic . Like i said , q-con got it's advantages , but it is expensive , no way it can compeed the value of breeze blocks .
C , Yep , double wall with insulation would be even better then q-con in terms of insulation value ,  even without the insulation it would be at least very close maybe even better then the q-cons .

My plasma is around 25 kg if i remember correct ( 51inch Samsung ) ... i've hung a approx 70 kg statue on my single breeze block wall with standard screws . But i do have to admid , i did use some other tricks also to keep it up as i do not want it fall down . I'm very sure a plasma is no problem for a breeze block .

[Khun Jean]

You can even dry stack them and use a surface bonding (cement with fibers) for strength. Taking out the 'bricklayer'.

[klikster]

Every time I read about the "insulation between layers" of concrete block some thoughts near the back of my brain nag at me.  I keep asking, "Why don't thermos bottles have insulation?"

I realize that many / most / all thermos bottles have a vacuum, but ..

So I did a little research and found this an article which may or may not be accurate, but it should get people thinking.

Quote

HEAT LOSS THROUGH AIR

There is no such thing as a “dead” air space as far as heat transfer is concerned, even in the case of a perfectly airtight compartment such as a thermos bottle. Convection currents are inevitable with differences in temperature between surfaces, if air or some other gas is present inside. Since air has some density, there will be some heat transfer by conduction if any surface of a so-called “dead” air space is heated. Finally, radiation, which accounts for 50% to 80% of all heat transfer, will pass through air (or a vacuum) with ease, just as radiation travels the many million miles that separate the earth from the sun.

Aluminum foil, with its reflective surface, can block the flow of radiation. Some foils have higher absorption and emissivity qualities than others. The variations run from 2% to 72%, a differential of over 2000%. Most aluminum insulation has only a 5% absorption and emissivity ratio. It is impervious to water vapor and convection currents, and reflects 95% of all radiant energy which strikes its air-bound surfaces. http://www.radiantba...ics-of-foil.htm

So it would seem that the dual wall without insulation might be nearly as effective as the same wall with fiberglass board or batting ..

.. unless the fiberglass has a radiant barrier. Then there is another issue.

Quote

Reflection and emissivity by surfaces can ONLY occur in SPACE. The ideal space is any dimension 3/4" or more. Smaller spaces are also effective, but decreasingly so. Where there is no air space, we have conduction through solids. When a reflective surface of a material is attached to a ceiling, floor or wall, that particular surface ceases to have radiant insulation value at the points in contact.

So in that case, if we simply "pack" the space between blocks with fiberglass and foil, have we essentially "foiled" our efforts.

Would it actually be better to glue foil to one wall of blocks?

edit: added second quote and comments

Edited by klikster, 2012-02-01 10:28:39.

[Kwasaki]

klikster, on 2012-02-01 10:20:28, said:

Every time I read about the "insulation between layers" of concrete block some thoughts near the back of my brain nag at me.  I keep asking, "Why don't thermos bottles have insulation?"

I realize that many / most / all thermos bottles have a vacuum, but ..

So I did a little research and found this an article which may or may not be accurate, but it should get people thinking.

No thinking needed much, Insulation within cavities !!  Foam, polystyrene or rockwool slab which I have not seen here yet.

Edited by Kwasaki, 2012-02-01 17:28:23.

[Khun Jean]

klikster, on 2012-02-01 10:20:28, said:

Quote

Reflection and emissivity by surfaces can ONLY occur in SPACE. The ideal space is any dimension 3/4" or more. Smaller spaces are also effective, but decreasingly so. Where there is no air space, we have conduction through solids. When a reflective surface of a material is attached to a ceiling, floor or wall, that particular surface ceases to have radiant insulation value at the points in contact.

So in that case, if we simply "pack" the space between blocks with fiberglass and foil, have we essentially "foiled" our efforts.

Would it actually be better to glue foil to one wall of blocks?

edit: added second quote and comments

Fiberglass and materials like styrofoam have very good insulation properties because they conduct heat very poorly.
The ideal material would be a small layer of styrofoam with aluminum foil on the side where you want the heat kept out.

innerwall, styrofoam, aluminum foil, space 1 or more inches, outer wall.

The aluminum reflects the radiant heat and the styrofoam helps to restrict conduction of the rest. Adding another styrofoam/aluminum foil to the outer wall will reduce it even further but the extra cost will not be worthwhile.
The outer wall should be 'thin' and the innerwall should be thick.
The outer wall will radiate heat out more quickly, although in Thailand the differences in temperatures during the day is not that big (small delta T).
Having an airflow in the space between the walls would replace hotter air with cooler air lowering the temperature even a little bit more and will prevent moisture buildup that can cause mold.
The innerwall functions as a heatsink. If you use airconditioning the innerwall cools down and will help to reduce temperature fluctuations between airconditioning cycles because of its thermal mass.

Edited by Khun Jean, 2012-02-01 17:49:14.

[klikster]

Kwasaki, on 2012-02-01 17:25:13, said:

klikster, on 2012-02-01 10:20:28, said:

Every time I read about the "insulation between layers" of concrete block some thoughts near the back of my brain nag at me.  I keep asking, "Why don't thermos bottles have insulation?"

I realize that many / most / all thermos bottles have a vacuum, but ..

So I did a little research and found this an article which may or may not be accurate, but it should get people thinking.

No thinking needed much, Insulation within cavities !!  Foam, polystyrene or rockwool slab which I have not seen here yet.

Well, "still" air, i.e. non turbulent; is also a very nice insulation.  Seems to me that without a foil radiant barrier and sufficient space for the radiant barrier to be effective, most of the cost and effort are wasted.

[Khun Jean]

klikster, on 2012-02-02 14:30:08, said:

Kwasaki, on 2012-02-01 17:25:13, said:

klikster, on 2012-02-01 10:20:28, said:

Every time I read about the "insulation between layers" of concrete block some thoughts near the back of my brain nag at me.  I keep asking, "Why don't thermos bottles have insulation?"

I realize that many / most / all thermos bottles have a vacuum, but ..

So I did a little research and found this an article which may or may not be accurate, but it should get people thinking.

No thinking needed much, Insulation within cavities !!  Foam, polystyrene or rockwool slab which I have not seen here yet.

Well, "still" air, i.e. non turbulent; is also a very nice insulation.  Seems to me that without a foil radiant barrier and sufficient space for the radiant barrier to be effective, most of the cost and effort are wasted.

You are right about the radiant barrier. But don't forget Thailand has a tropical climate so moist buildup is a big concern.
"still" air works great in dryer/colder climates. Even radiant barriers and rockwool will be installed the wrong way if you are not supervising it. Most of us are so used to keep heat in and cold out. And thai workers reading the western instructions.......
As with may things, once in Thailand you have to forget most of what is used in the west, or reverse it.

Edited by Khun Jean, 2012-02-02 14:44:09.