What I am referring to is "damping", not reduced sound transmission. While the results may be similar, the mechanism is different. As I understand things, damping is preventing the re-transmission of sound --- either internally and externally. That's what I'm looking for data on.
@Kwasaki
No, the discussion here is not limited to the COST of one type of block over another. Read the title. It is about Pros and Cons.
FWIW, a porous / fibrous material between layers of mass doesn't do all that much for reducing sound transmission. Fiber board and fiber blankets work well to reduce the reverberation of sound within a space, but I'm not sure how important that is inside a residential wall.
However, I don't think it is about atomic bomb shelters.
----------------------
It is difficult to sort of imagine one's way, acoustically speaking, through a breeze block wall. Each block is complex with 'chambers', 'walls' and 'connections'. But a double Superblock wall might have some significant advantages over a double breeze block wall.
Yes double or treble the cost.
You are beginning to sound like some of the artchitects I had to deal with, and never mind part of the title " Pros and Cons " read the post.
OP Posted 2012-01-29 10:19:06
Hi,
Im trying to figure out why someone would spend say 25 to 30BHT on one of the lightwieght "breezeblock" type products versus for example
simple concrete blocks made by locals at 4bht a piece, also the small terracotta bricks that are mere Satangs a piece.
Has anyone done a compartive analysis of these 3 types of building materials to ascertain which one actually represents good value?
OP Ruf
( " However, I don't think it is about atomic bomb shelters." ) Acoustically speaking there pretty good at it.
What I am referring to is "damping", not reduced sound transmission. While the results may be similar, the mechanism is different. As I understand things, damping is preventing the re-transmission of sound --- either internally and externally. That's what I'm looking for data on.
@Kwasaki
No, the discussion here is not limited to the COST of one type of block over another. Read the title. It is about Pros and Cons.
FWIW, a porous / fibrous material between layers of mass doesn't do all that much for reducing sound transmission. Fiber board and fiber blankets work well to reduce the reverberation of sound within a space, but I'm not sure how important that is inside a residential wall.
However, I don't think it is about atomic bomb shelters.
----------------------
It is difficult to sort of imagine one's way, acoustically speaking, through a breeze block wall. Each block is complex with 'chambers', 'walls' and 'connections'. But a double Superblock wall might have some significant advantages over a double breeze block wall.
Yes double or treble the cost.
You are beginning to sound like some of the artchitects I had to deal with, and never mind part of the title " Pros and Cons " read the post.
OP Posted 2012-01-29 10:19:06
Hi,
Im trying to figure out why someone would spend say 25 to 30BHT on one of the lightwieght "breezeblock" type products versus for example
simple concrete blocks made by locals at 4bht a piece, also the small terracotta bricks that are mere Satangs a piece.
Has anyone done a compartive analysis of these 3 types of building materials to ascertain which one actually represents good value?
OP Ruf
( " However, I don't think it is about atomic bomb shelters." ) Acoustically speaking there pretty good at it.
I am in the process of blocking in the garage door (this is a DIY job) had the breeze blocks delivered today,4 Baht each, and yes they are brittle, especially when wet after a nights rain, they are now drying off under cover.
So here are the questions what is the best thickness for the render? As I have seen that it varies so much.
What is the best rendering product/name and what is a good mix ratio?
I could get someone in to do the job but I tend to like hands on.
The photos are my last DIY job, all good for the waistline,DSCN2538.JPG719.4K9 downloadsDSCN2534.JPG620.54K10 downloads
@Kwasaki
No, the discussion here is not limited to the COST of one type of block over another. Read the title. It is about Pros and Cons.
FWIW, a porous / fibrous material between layers of mass doesn't do all that much for reducing sound transmission. Fiber board and fiber blankets work well to reduce the reverberation of sound within a space, but I'm not sure how important that is inside a residential wall.
You are beginning to sound like some of the artchitects I had to deal with
Well, maybe you should have listened. I am not an architect, nor an acoustical engineer. I have stated as much in past threads.
My experiences come from my own small business designing and building industrial noise control structures. My work was contractual, which meant the equipment I built had to meet very specific noise reduction requirements. I have built large stationary engine silencers, high speed punch press enclosures; done sound control treatments on injection mold scrap grinders; and quite a lot more.
I never did get into any architectural sound control solutions. It's a different field, different materials -- and too many of the builders sound too much like you.
Quote
and never mind part of the title " Pros and Cons " read the post.
I did. And if you don't like what I posted don't keep whining about it -- report it to a mod.
as an architect, I find some pointed commentary here pretty funny... like all professions, some practitioners are better than others.
And as an architect who's worked with acoustic engineers on difficult projects enough to learn a bit... any acoustic remedy must begin with a knowledgeable analysis of the sound sources & characteristics, routes of energy being transmitted (airborne, structure-borne), the building systems/assemblies, the desired sound levels 'on the other side of the floor/wall/ceiling' from the source. From that, a strategy is formulated and details developed & issued.
The suspended ceiling comments here were interesting - I once worked with an acoustic engineer to eliminate live music sound transmission in a bar to hotel guestrooms directly above, in the same steel & concrete structure. It got complicated, but we did use acoustic isolators - springs - to hang the triple layer gyp board ceiling, along with lining the cavity with acoustic batts, sealing everything airtight & decoupling the ceiling system from the walls. THEN, there was a concrete-filled metal deck above! So it can get challenging, but its not usually that extreme.
Often, people think architects are difficult - usually its a contractor/supplier who is used to typical installations and doesn't understand all the design constraints, subtle [to laypersons anyway] design intent, Code limitations, owner direction... other times, the architect's just a jerk.
@Kwasaki
No, the discussion here is not limited to the COST of one type of block over another. Read the title. It is about Pros and Cons.
FWIW, a porous / fibrous material between layers of mass doesn't do all that much for reducing sound transmission. Fiber board and fiber blankets work well to reduce the reverberation of sound within a space, but I'm not sure how important that is inside a residential wall.
You are beginning to sound like some of the artchitects I had to deal with
Well, maybe you should have listened. I am not an architect, nor an acoustical engineer. I have stated as much in past threads.
My experiences come from my own small business designing and building industrial noise control structures. My work was contractual, which meant the equipment I built had to meet very specific noise reduction requirements. I have built large stationary engine silencers, high speed punch press enclosures; done sound control treatments on injection mold scrap grinders; and quite a lot more.
I never did get into any architectural sound control solutions. It's a different field, different materials -- and too many of the builders sound too much like you.
Quote
and never mind part of the title " Pros and Cons " read the post.
I did. And if you don't like what I posted don't keep whining about it -- report it to a mod.
I should have listened, sorry can't hear a thing.
Whining what !
What I am referring to is "damping", not reduced sound transmission. While the results may be similar, the mechanism is different. As I understand things, damping is preventing the re-transmission of sound --- either internally and externally. That's what I'm looking for data on.
@Kwasaki
No, the discussion here is not limited to the COST of one type of block over another. Read the title. It is about Pros and Cons.
FWIW, a porous / fibrous material between layers of mass doesn't do all that much for reducing sound transmission. Fiber board and fiber blankets work well to reduce the reverberation of sound within a space, but I'm not sure how important that is inside a residential wall.
However, I don't think it is about atomic bomb shelters.
----------------------
It is difficult to sort of imagine one's way, acoustically speaking, through a breeze block wall. Each block is complex with 'chambers', 'walls' and 'connections'. But a double Superblock wall might have some significant advantages over a double breeze block wall.
Yes double or treble the cost.
You are beginning to sound like some of the artchitects I had to deal with, and never mind part of the title " Pros and Cons " read the post.
OP Posted 2012-01-29 10:19:06
Hi,
Im trying to figure out why someone would spend say 25 to 30BHT on one of the lightwieght "breezeblock" type products versus for example
simple concrete blocks made by locals at 4bht a piece, also the small terracotta bricks that are mere Satangs a piece.
Has anyone done a compartive analysis of these 3 types of building materials to ascertain which one actually represents good value?
OP Ruf
( " However, I don't think it is about atomic bomb shelters." ) Acoustically speaking there pretty good at it.
I am in the process of blocking in the garage door (this is a DIY job) had the breeze blocks delivered today,4 Baht each, and yes they are brittle, especially when wet after a nights rain, they are now drying off under cover.
So here are the questions what is the best thickness for the render? As I have seen that it varies so much.
What is the best rendering product/name and what is a good mix ratio?
I could get someone in to do the job but I tend to like hands on.
The photos are my last DIY job, all good for the waistline,DSCN2538.JPG719.4K9 downloadsDSCN2534.JPG620.54K10 downloads
Nice woodwork, looks good, you can do rendering easily yourself.
New blocks brittle yep but just handle with care they harden over time.
Thailand has perfectly good local to you cement products for rendering it's only a concrete mix there are many youtube clips here's one :-
as an architect, I find some pointed commentary here pretty funny... like all professions, some practitioners are better than others.
And as an architect who's worked with acoustic engineers on difficult projects enough to learn a bit... any acoustic remedy must begin with a knowledgeable analysis of the sound sources & characteristics, routes of energy being transmitted (airborne, structure-borne), the building systems/assemblies, the desired sound levels 'on the other side of the floor/wall/ceiling' from the source. From that, a strategy is formulated and details developed & issued.
The suspended ceiling comments here were interesting - I once worked with an acoustic engineer to eliminate live music sound transmission in a bar to hotel guestrooms directly above, in the same steel & concrete structure. It got complicated, but we did use acoustic isolators - springs - to hang the triple layer gyp board ceiling, along with lining the cavity with acoustic batts, sealing everything airtight & decoupling the ceiling system from the walls. THEN, there was a concrete-filled metal deck above! So it can get challenging, but its not usually that extreme.
Often, people think architects are difficult - usually its a contractor/supplier who is used to typical installations and doesn't understand all the design constraints, subtle [to laypersons anyway] design intent, Code limitations, owner direction... other times, the architect's just a jerk.
Building complex constructions are very interesting I think and always enjoyed them more than the usual run of the mill repeat projects.
I would never have called an Architect a jerk, some of the inexperianced straight from college ones were a problem sometimes but over the years have many architects that became more like friends than customers.
Regards K
Well, nothing is an absolute solution, but a high density membrane will reduce transmitted noise a few db. When you talk about a "stiff connection" I assume you are talking steel wire. You are not likely to get much low frequency transmitted through a wire used to hang ceiling tiles.
come to my home on a saturday evening and listen to the low frequency sound of drums being beaten 1½ km away whereas the high frequencies can't be heard. by the way, my ceilings are not suspended by wires but by flat steel connectors (1.5mm thickness).
Quote
Come on, Naam. Low frequency personified? Energy creation?
being a physicist i refuse to comment on "energy creation" in context with "latent acoustic amplification". if the latter wouldn't exist Signore Stradivari would have built violins by adding strings to a wooden stick having a value of a fistful of dollars and not a million (or more) when auctioned at Christie's or Sotheby's
by the way, that latent acoustic amplification exists can be easily proven. take a piece of sheet metal measuring 10x10cm and hit it with a hard object. then take a piece of 5m², do the same and compare generated respectively felt dezibels.
or... take a wild guess concerning the size of this "gong"
I would never have called an Architect a jerk, some of the inexperianced straight from college ones were a problem sometimes but over the years have many architects that became more like friends than customers.
i am living in a subdivision which has 42 homes. most of the homes were built by the developer who used two different architects. years ago, before we built our house, we inspected a dozen homes which were for sale in various states from rough construction to move-in condition.
based on what i saw i would not dare to insult any honest jerk by calling above-mentioned architects "jerks". in my [not so] humble view they are "architectional criminals" guilty of crimes against humanity and should be extradited to be sentenced by the International Court in The Hague.
come to my home on a saturday evening and listen to the low frequency sound of drums being beaten 1½ km away whereas the high frequencies can't be heard. by the way, my ceilings are not suspended by wires but by flat steel connectors (1.5mm thickness).
Firstly, I would be delighted and honored to be received at Casa Naamita if I ever have occasion to visit Pattaya.
The higher frequencies from the music are attenuated much more than the low frequencies by various materials in the acoustic path -- buildings, trees, fences, walls, roofs, etc.. That's common to virtually every material you will find. 5,000 HZ is MUCH easier to attenuate than is 50 HZ. And low frequencies propagate much greater distances from the source than high frequencies. I surmise that is some of of the problem experienced at your home. Walk outside and you will likely hear the same dominance of low frequencies.
Actually, if the problem really is the steel straps resonating, damping them is much easier than trying to dampen the entire ceiling. But I doubt that would do much, short of building a lab quality anechoic chamber, you will never silence the drums, the drums, the bloody drums!
Quote
Come on, Naam. Low frequency personified? Energy creation?
Quote
being a physicist i refuse to comment on "energy creation" in context with "latent acoustic amplification". if the latter wouldn't exist Signore Stradivari would have built violins by adding strings to a wooden stick having a value of a fistful of dollars and not a million (or more) when auctioned at Christie's or Sotheby's
by the way, that latent acoustic amplification exists can be easily proven. take a piece of sheet metal measuring 10x10cm and hit it with a hard object. then take a piece of 5m², do the same and compare generated respectively felt dezibels.
Yes, my quote was to tweak your physicists nose, sorry for that.
I actually don't understand all I can and have observed about sound. I "believe" that the energy is not created, but that certain frequencies are attenuated less, while other frequencies are dampened more. FWIW, I understand acoustic damping as the opposite of acoustic resonance.
If you take that same experiment with the 5m² steel sheet, but have applied a thin layer of viscoelastic material to it, you will observe a classic case or damping. So where did the energy go? My guess is heat.
Actually, if the problem really is the steel straps resonating, damping them is much easier than trying to dampen the entire ceiling. But I doubt that would do much, short of building a lab quality anechoic chamber, you will never silence the drums, the drums, the bloody drums!
it's rather easy to dampen a fistful of steel straps. but it's bloody complicated (not only because of difficult access) to dampen a zillion steel straps.
never encountered a problem like this before because i never lived in a house with a steel roof structure to which gypsum boards were fixed. had i known i would have tried hard to find a solution. the only viable solution now is shooting the saturday evening drummers. but this is Thailand Dorothy, not Texas!
another interesting "audio performance" of my roof happens very rarely, perhaps once or twice a year. when there is a sudden "cold wave", i.e. temperatures dropping several degrees within a couple of hours in the night the sound of a 220mm cannon can be heard. when we first heard it at 0300hrs we thought armed robbers used a bazooka to break into the house. reason is expansion/contraction of stiff steel spanning 26m each way welded to the steel reinforcement of the concrete columns.
never encountered a problem like this before because i never lived in a house with a steel roof structure to which gypsum boards were fixed. had i known i would have tried hard to find a solution. the only viable solution now is shooting the saturday evening drummers. but this is Thailand Dorothy, not Texas!
another interesting "audio performance" of my roof happens very rarely, perhaps once or twice a year. when there is a sudden "cold wave", i.e. temperatures dropping several degrees within a couple of hours in the night the sound of a 220mm cannon can be heard. when we first heard it at 0300hrs we thought armed robbers used a bazooka to break into the house. reason is expansion/contraction of stiff steel spanning 26m each way welded to the steel reinforcement of the concrete columns.
That's a resonance phenomena and they occur with all types of vibrations or waves; there is mechanical resonance, acoustic resonance, electromagnetic resonance, nuclear magnetic resonance, electron spin resonance and resonance of quantum wave functions.
Resonant systems can be used to generate vibrations at a specific frequency (e.g. musical instruments mainly DRUMS ) , or pick out specific frequencies from a complex vibration containing many frequencies (e.g. filters).
Resonance was recognized by Galileo with his investigations of pendulums and musical strings which he began in 1602 and still no bloody physicist has come up with anything.
Now where my Thai drum got to, Saturdays not far away and it needs tuning.
That's a resonance phenomena and they occur with all types of vibrations or waves; there is mechanical resonance, acoustic resonance, electromagnetic resonance, nuclear magnetic resonance, electron spin resonance and resonance of quantum wave functions.
That's a resonance phenomena and they occur with all types of vibrations or waves; there is mechanical resonance, acoustic resonance, electromagnetic resonance, nuclear magnetic resonance, electron spin resonance and resonance of quantum wave functions.
you don't say!
Hey - consider the phenomena of "quantum wave functions". They will vibrate and not vibrate at exactly the same time - or be in a completely different universe. But, that's for the ghost house.
Well, so far none of the casa owners that do have Q-con and other brands of this are saying they sure wish they hadn't gone this route. I used it, along with the red bricks on the inside with a space in between and am so pleased with everything I almost pee in my pants every time I come inside, to where the very noticeably cooler temp is and not only that, but the sick water buffalo sounding karaoke singers are almost silent. I did wire for AC, but so far....knock on Q-con blocks or wood....I have not yet had to spend the money to install it and am really happy about that as well. Perhaps I should invest in some Depends, eh? Coming from a temperate part of the world, I can do without living in a pizza oven. I love my Thermos house as much as the termites hate it! ett
i am living in a subdivision which has 42 homes. most of the homes were built by the developer who used two different architects. years ago, before we built our house, we inspected a dozen homes which were for sale in various states from rough construction to move-in condition.
based on what i saw i would not dare to insult any honest jerk by calling above-mentioned architects "jerks". in my [not so] humble view they are "architectional criminals" guilty of crimes against humanity and should be extradited to be sentenced by the International Court in The Hague.
You're funny enough, but let's make something really clear: I actually agree if youre talking about the technically ignorant S. & S.E. Asian architects who with their developers/contractors regularly design & build leak, fire & even collapse-prone buildings... or persons in the West who are hired by 'subdivision' [perfect noun, btw] developers - this latter group of prostitutes are hired by pimp developers solely for their cheapness and ability to say 'yes sir' to anything the developer dictates.
In fact, subdivisions are not typically designed by architects, as it's not required by law - so developers pick a plan out of a website, rip it off, hire a draftsman with maybe a high school degree or an INTERN architect [by definition, one who hasnt completed their mandatory three year internship after graduation from college, and then passed four days of twelve hours' testing to earn the right to use the term Licensed Architect ] who slaps together a joke of a set of drawings under the developer's thumb. My favorites hire their wives or other untalented but hot tarts to do the 'interior decorating.' Said developer then banishes the drafter from any meaningful construction phase services and sends them off to the drawing room for the next victim's house. Buyers of these houses pay for what they get, but seldom get what they pay for.
As for the balance of the architectural profession in the developed Western World, we maintain the standards for which Licensing Laws exist for the professions: a philosophy & business based on good design, good service, and the protection of the health, life safety & general welfare of the community.
i am living in a subdivision which has 42 homes. most of the homes were built by the developer who used two different architects. years ago, before we built our house, we inspected a dozen homes which were for sale in various states from rough construction to move-in condition.
based on what i saw i would not dare to insult any honest jerk by calling above-mentioned architects "jerks". in my [not so] humble view they are "architectional criminals" guilty of crimes against humanity and should be extradited to be sentenced by the International Court in The Hague.
You're funny enough, but let's make something really clear: I actually agree if youre talking about the technically ignorant S. & S.E. Asian architects who with their developers/contractors regularly design & build leak, fire & even collapse-prone buildings... or persons in the West who are hired by 'subdivision' [perfect noun, btw] developers - this latter group of prostitutes are hired by pimp developers solely for their cheapness and ability to say 'yes sir' to anything the developer dictates.
In fact, subdivisions are not typically designed by architects, as it's not required by law - so developers pick a plan out of a website, rip it off, hire a draftsman with maybe a high school degree or an INTERN architect [by definition, one who hasnt completed their mandatory three year internship after graduation from college, and then passed four days of twelve hours' testing to earn the right to use the term Licensed Architect ] who slaps together a joke of a set of drawings under the developer's thumb. My favorites hire their wives or other untalented but hot tarts to do the 'interior decorating.' Said developer then banishes the drafter from any meaningful construction phase services and sends them off to the drawing room for the next victim's house. Buyers of these houses pay for what they get, but seldom get what they pay for.
As for the balance of the architectural profession in the developed Western World, we maintain the standards for which Licensing Laws exist for the professions: a philosophy & business based on good design, good service, and the protection of the health, life safety & general welfare of the community.
Well, you sound upset and what I have seen over the years I understand why.
Apart from the western cowboys I have met a few alleged Architects in Thailand, one of the main questions I asked was about roofing, and in the main the answer was, " Well if the roof leaks it doesn't really matter because the water can be used to wash the floor ".
Not mad, never worth it, and Naam's a good guy. just felt need to make a clarification as to the third oldest profession after Pro-girls & undertakers.
Ya, the Asian roof solutions - low slope especially - are hairraising, or is that weed-raising? Once asked an Indian client if they'd consider their roofing assembly of choice (sloping concrete topping over some unspecified fluid-applied membrane over sloping screed over unspecified rigid insulation ) an Inverted Membrane Roof system, and there was a long pause.
I raised what I considered to be BIG issues with his proposed assembly, but he refused to address them since they 'always used that system in India.' Whatevs!
That's a resonance phenomena and they occur with all types of vibrations or waves; there is mechanical resonance, acoustic resonance, electromagnetic resonance, nuclear magnetic resonance, electron spin resonance and resonance of quantum wave functions.
0
klikster, on 2012-02-16 23:09:08, said:
I had to deal with, and never mind part of the title " Pros and Cons " read the post.
