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[xbunnyx]

I'm normal curious. I dot know if I'm gay or not but I think I fancy guys. I'm a completely virgin. I've been looking for some gay friends on Internet.  But it didnt work out that way. Most of them are just wanke_rs. I have never been to gay bars or something like that before so I'm kind of innocent to these things. Sometimes I expect to meet some gay friends in the shopping mall in Siam. But I've never got a luck. Actually I don't live here in Bangkok but I live in Ayutthaya (the old Capitol) and I have never met gay farangs before. Only my friends said that they have seen a lot of gay farangs. I still hope that some day I'll get to know some good gay friends.
My mate in bkk asked me to go to Silom with him to see how things are. I went with him and it was okay for me. I didn't like that much cos people there just like one night stand. Not for long relationship. But I'll try to make some new friends there soon. Maybe at the bars.

[Ijustwannateach]

Good luck.  Coming out takes different amounts of time for different people.

[pauleddy]

After seven years here, I continue to find it very difficult to meet someone on a 50-50 I-like-you-like-me basis.

The, ahem...lo-so Thais, with few exceptions, have expectations that you will pay more food, drinks, rent, etc, etc, than they will. I have had three "long" partners in seven years. The longest one was, and is, a lovely guy but expects me to pay for some of his household goods and dental bills even 2 years after splitting up (silly me, yes). The shortest "affair" was three or four months..and he naturally expected me to pay almost everything. As somebody said, the value system is different, especially where one guy is younger, but not only...

A friend who has been here 25 years (and is a Harvard PhD) considers it a "tax". He has been paying out to his BF's family for 20 of those years, and it is like a sunk cost. In my country we pay social security. Here, you pay the BF's bills and family bills. Just keep on paying your taxes, folks.

The hi-so ones, as somebody above said, live in a dog-eat-dog world with eachother. They are not interested in your money, but are very interested in deception/controlling you/or just having a trophy farang. Lying and infidelity come naturally (this also applies to the "lo-so"). I find that the Hi-So are more interested in Benzes and Prada Bags than sincerity. This is about 90% of them. Sure, sure, I have met some charming and genuine people; often old money and understated, but certainly in the minority

Of course, there is a huge chasm of dissonance caused by a huge chip-on-shoulder. Many of them (any-so) want to be "white" (or western?) (and even use the skin creams)...but it is more than skin deep. Hollywood and other influences have ensured that "the smartest brightest richest nicest sexiest people" are white and have Benzes, and so must be emulated. This sets up a dissonance which is almost schizoid. On the one hand, they are told that it is great to be Thai and 'free' and to live in the 'best country' in the world, the country which everybody adores. On the other hand, it would be better to look like Brad Pitt and have all the trappings of the Brads of this world, although they can never be Brad. Combine this with other dissonances which are inherent in the 'system' (and not created by farang) and your poor child-like emotions (yes, Thais can be so loveable) get even more confused. OK...my arguments are all oversimplifications, but you get the idea?

I had an epiphany yesterday. I made a (rare) visit to a sauna--not Babylon. On the way, the taxi driver pleaded no change from 100b. Then I got ripped-off buying a phone-card (silly me, I paid 300b for a 200b card). When I got into the sauna, at least three people sniggered to friends ("look at that @@@@ farang there"). Normally, I ignore rubbish, because I am in my own little fish bowl, working, playing, keeping house. But I have realised, once again, that most of them don't like us being here. We contribute a lot, and some of us teach their kids or even marry them. But, it is true, as a sage told me, that you will never be truly accepted because the hypocrisy-related dissonance (or dissonance-related hypocrisy?) and the covert racism are as big as the 2004 tsunami.

By all means, tell me again that there are 50 planes a day if I hate it so much. But it saddens me now. If you have found a partner to love, trust, cherish and support, and it is really 50-50, then you are the luckiest guy I know.

Land of Smiles? I never believed it. It is the land of rent boys, snake oil sellers and sniggers. Look at how they treat eachother. You don't have to be Freud to work it out. It's staring at you in every soi and in every bar.

Please God, send me a helicopter soon.

[LeCharivari]

pauleddy, on 2012-05-06 13:13:43, said:

Of course, there is a huge chasm of dissonance caused by a huge chip-on-shoulder. ........ OK...my arguments are all oversimplifications, but you get the idea?

I think so ... not so  much a  " huge" chip, but more of a HUGE chip.

If I recall correctly, at one time you were enquiring here about UK Civil Partnerships for you and your then Thai BF, which I would take as an indication that you were very close for some time - is paying for some dental bills really such an imposition under those circumstances?

I also recall that in January of this year you were asking about Army conscription as your then BF was due for the Army draw last month. That would make him 20, while you are on a retirement extension so at least 30 years his senior. So what? I know a number of couples here where such an age gap has proven to be no problem at all (without any "paying out" to the BF's family); in the UK, however, you could more or less guarantee that such a relationship would be met by "sniggers" both behind your back and to your face and that as a foreigner under those circumstances you would "never be truly accepted" and that the discrimination you would routinely face would be anything but "covert".

Thailand, at least for me, is far from perfect but I've met "normal Thai Gays" in straight bars, gay bars, on the beach, etc, and those you describe have been in the minority here and would be found in similar surroundings (hi and lo) pretty well anywhere in the world.  No offence, Pauleddy, as you've obviously been told it before, but as Old Bill said: "if you knows a better 'ole, go to it".

[pauleddy]

Thanks to Sherlock Chari for tracking my message history (or just having the memory larger than that of Big Blue). It was not my intention to focus on two specific events within my life here. I was merely trying to illustrate the general 'dissonance' and covert attitudes that I believe (rightly or wrongly) to exist here. Chari, you really should get out more!

I was enquiring about UK "marriage" about 3-4 years ago (true), because even then I wanted to get out of this place but felt "responsible" for the welfare of my then BF, and wanted him to obtain my pension rights and other civil stuff.

My current BF is, in fact, 23...and never asks for money, although there are other imbalances.

The sniggers I described were not as a result of going to a sauna with my younger BF. I was there alone, but felt unwelcome and resented. The other observations were based on longer-term perceptions formulated after seven or eight years of living here, and observing Thais at work and at play in several major institutions, or simply at play in social interactions.

Old Bill gave sound advice, which I should heed. In the British English vernacular, Old Bill means policeman. Was he employed thus?

P E

[LeCharivari]

PE, I'm afraid you'll have to blame my memory as I recalled those particular posts as I replied to them both (although I did check your posts to make sure I was correct!) and so was rather surprised by your current view. I don't think my getting out more would help me to see  "the general 'dissonance' and covert attitudes" that you have observed as after nearly 20 years here I doubt if I would see much which would surprise me (although I avoid Bangkok and have no experience of any of Thailand's "major institutions").

If you're current boyfriend is 23 and "never asks for money" then that would seem to contradict your " Here, you pay the BF's bills and family bills." I don't see how you can have it both ways - either he does or he doesn't. As for "imbalances", how could there not be with such an age gap wherever he comes from? He's young, you're old (no offence, the same applies to my partner and I), he's working and you're not, etc, etc.

Do you honestly think that if you went to a similar sauna in the UK or any where else you'd be made any more welcome? I can't say as I've got no relevant experience, but I really doubt it; you can't blame the Thais for that - its anno domino that's the culprit.

Old Bill? No, not a policeman, he was the famous cartoon character created by Capt Bruce Bairnsfather, WWI's most famous cartoonist. The character was used, dressed in a special constable's uniform, in a series of 1917 advertisements headed "Old Bill says ... walls have ears  ... loose lips sink ships "... etc, and one theory is that the "Old Bill" term stems from that. Don't let it be said that TV's anything but informative!

[Ijustwannateach]

Paul, all of this is getting kind of off-topic here, but I feel your pain... however, I would maintain that the issue isn't 'they don't want us here'.  There are perfectly decent guys around who behave in perfectly decent ways.  Maybe a question for you is *why* you stayed in relationships that continued to be so unrewarding, so one-sided.  There may be a parallel to why you wound up attracting guys who expected those kinds of dynamics.  I wish the best for you, but I fear that if you went somewhere else you would find yourself repeating the same kinds of situations until you are ready to be responsible for your part in them and understanding what is happening.

I don't know what to say about your specific sauna experience.  Different venues have different characters; some of them are less welcoming to those who are older, whether Thai or foreigner.  Your mood at the time you're there, who else is there, what day of the week or time of night- all of these can make a big difference to how you feel about being in those kinds of places.  I have found myself very welcome at some times in some places, and other times felt like I was invisible.  But I know a LOT of it also depends on my mood, and it's not a good thing to go out when you're already feeling down or insecure.

To be honest, I have often found that earlier in an evening, at any kind of venue, the types who might make a point of pointing me out ('look at the foreigner over there') - even if it seems a bit jokey and rude at the time- wind up being the ones who actually really want more attention from me.  They're not always able to take responsibility for that in front of their friends, of course.

I'd have to say, that if your tastes run to exceptionally young guys, you are not going to find things as easy as with guys who are closer to your age, and it's not only 'age-bias' but also maturity.  Maybe you should go easier on yourself and look around for what kind of people you can find in the 30-40 zone (whether for flings or longer relationships)?  You might be very pleasantly surprised.

And stupid maneuvers like bad short term service from taxis aren't confined to foreigners, tourists, or older people- I wouldn't take it personally.