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[sfbandung]

12,000 baht? I paid more for a TV recently.
He received a quite calmly worded threat, normally the most dangerous. He was a wealthy guy. Just pay and politely tell him (without company) that he won't get any more work unless he makes it good.
It isn't just Thailand, in any country where you are a visitor you will be at a disadvantage. If it isn't a life changing amount of money just pay it and walk away. This is like fighting a bloke who has a gun and wants your wallet. Just give the bloody thing to him and be more careful next time.

That said however, it is tragic and I wish him and his family well.

[easyas]

Payboy, on 2012-02-01 12:34:22, said:

easyas, on 2012-02-01 10:30:49, said:

Of course, and very unfortunately, Paul wasn't wearing a helmet and it was hitting his head on the concrete road as a result of the attack that fractured his skull, not a blow to the head by his assailant who reportedly was armed with a tree branch, not a club per se.

So, its not actually murder if you got pushed off a cliff.

First, no oné has died as yet - so no murder as yet.
Second, not wearing a helmet is both against the law and stupid - so even if he doesn't pull through (and I really hope he does) the police will quite probably consider his death as a self inflicted accident.

[tragickingdom]

As always nothing will happen. They might find the occasional scapegoat but the big boys will be left alone. That is the price of doing business in Thailand were the poi ice is on the payroll of criminals just like it was in the West 30, 40 years ago,

[robertson468]

Okertes, on 2012-02-01 12:28:16, said:

Cleveland, on 2012-02-01 11:09:43, said:

The more I read about Thailand the more it looks like a lawless cesspit.

When I went to Phuket over ten years ago for my honeymoon I thought it would be the perfect place to retire to, and we visited several times a year.

Three years ago when the tuk tuk mafia took control of the transport situation, and foreigners seemed to have no rights whatoever, we havnt been back, and and I doubt we ever will. There simply seems to be no place that could be considered safe anymore, Chaing Mai, Hua Hin, Phuket etc.

We live in Chiang Mai for 2 years and we still alive and very happy :-)

I have lived on Koh Samui for seven years and even built six houses and bought two more, then turned them over to "my Thai her indoors".  She (and her Family) think I am the best thing since sliced bread, despite me being a grumpy old Brit Git.  Two years ago she said should we expand out her business, to which I said yep, but what is your game plan.  She said I will get a job and we will save the money from that for 5 years and then we can develop it further.  I also know of many Foreigners living and working on Koh Samui who are more than happy with their lot and many have Thai Families and Friends whom they value a great deal.  My point - there are hundreds, if not thousands of lovely Thai people, includng those who are married to Foreigners, who are not representative of the 0.01% mafia.  Just wanted to bring a positive view to balance the many negative views that have been expressed on the forum.  I would also say that I am extremely sorry for those who have been victims of violence, but there again, I do not know the full story behind each case.

[red1green0]

Sensationalist reporting at its best.

[LTGTR]

God what a shame.I do hope he recovers fully.
But this is Thailand and NOTHING will be done.
Ex-pats beware especially in Hua Hin.
Thailand was once a great place to retire but after 15 months I left.It holds nothing for me.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Apart from whether all the details of the OP article are accurate, the string of attack cases reported therein points to a broader message.

It's potentially dangerous for any farang to be doing business in Thailand, especially in situations where it leads to business conflicts with Thais.

In the west, such things get fought out in courts with attorneys.... Here, more often than not...and not just in Hua Hin...such disputes seem to get settled by attacks and violence of various sorts.

Come here, live, enjoy, keep a low profile and don't get involved in serious disputes if at all possible. But going into business and crossing swords with Thais seems to be a recipe for danger.

[wolf5370]

easyas, on 2012-02-01 12:34:29, said:

wolf5370, on 2012-02-01 11:32:24, said:

Cleveland, on 2012-02-01 11:09:43, said:

The more I read about Thailand the more it looks like a lawless cesspit.

When I went to Phuket over ten years ago for my honeymoon I thought it would be the perfect place to retire to, and we visited several times a year.

Three years ago when the tuk tuk mafia took control of the transport situation, and foreigners seemed to have no rights whatoever, we havnt been back, and and I doubt we ever will. There simply seems to be no place that could be considered safe anymore, Chaing Mai, Hua Hin, Phuket etc.

Why was Chiang Mai on your list? Not exactly buzzing with mafia tuk tuk drivers up here! Worse you get is a 200 baht uplift on the 20b songtaew fee after midnight when obviously drunk. Can't remember the last time I saw a news report of foreigners being beaten by Thais up here - certainly not, to my memory, in the same context as the Op. Phuket, yes - Pattaya, perhaps (some parts), Bangkok even (again some parts).

These are the stories I don't really inderstand. I can understand, not approve of or accept - but understand, why police avoid mafia and connected crooks, but a couple of thugs beating holiday makers to near death?

Wasn't Chiang Mai the place where 6, 7 or 8 farangs (I forget the exact number) mysteriously died in the same hotel? Put down to coincidence, I seem to remember. Hotel owned by relative of local police chief?

As for these people being "holiday makers" - yes and no - parents out here permently, brother in business in Hua Hin

Hardly the same thing - this thread is about violent crimes, not holiday makers dieing as a result of over application of pesticides (i.e. difference between intentional violence and accidents). I also did not say they truley were holiday makers, I said that the police/TAT could use the story of a quick arrest and hard sentences to show they protect holiday makers. They may have been on non-im 'B' visas, but likelyhood is they were on tourist visas which makes them holiday makers - even Non Im 'O' would likely have been to visit family say, so again officially holiday makers.  This would be more evident if you hadn't selectively cut my post in your quote.

[andrew55]

D Vince, on 2012-02-01 10:57:24, said:

terryp, on 2012-02-01 10:05:46, said:

Sadly Hua Hin is no longer the place to consider far too many murders there now as with all Thai towns that grow with foreigners the crime follows..anyone who puts almost half a million pounds into a house here must be delusional or just crazy
Hope this story turns out positive but sadly it looks like it wont; like many I would be surprised if they leave with any of the 430,000 GBP
Thailand is no game and it gets very serious if you cant handle it

You know I dont usually post on messabe boards, especially where Thailand is concerned mostly because responding to silly posts are a waste of time.
However for my first (I think) post to this forum, I have a question.

You say that "Thailand is no game, and it gets very serious if you cant handle it" how would "You" have handled this diffrently?

I didn't know that you don't usually post on message boards - nice to hear from you.

Hope you don't deem my post silly.

I'm not sure whether my handling would be different than this guy's as I only know the details as presented in the article.

I would avoid conflict at risk of life (except as a keyboard warrior on a forum). I think 'handling it' often involves subtleties that are difficult for foreigners to practice. Have you noticed that if the food at a restauraunt is not up to scratch Thais rarely comment - they just smile, pay and don't return - not the case where I come from. Face saving, negotiation techniques, being aware that tradesmanship standards are not necessarily those of our countries of origin, knowing when to walk away and that sometimes things just ain't fair are a few things that I would do. Perhaps the victim already did all this in which case I would have done nothing differently and found myself in his terrible state.

Last thing - I generally avoid non-Thai parts of the Kingdom such as Phuket, Pattaya, Hua Hin and other 'civilised' areas. My experience of Thailand has been mostly rural. The cities and especially those areas with more exposure to foreigners and particularly to farang seem to be the problem. Cultural conflict in part? I don't know crime stats and am happy to be corrected - just my experience of some years as a guest in LOS.

Certainly a tragic outcome for the victim and his family. I know the 'not in Kansas anymore' thing is over-used but now seems an appropriate moment.

Certainly a tragic outcome for the victim and his family, especially with the very real possibility of no satisfaction from authorities which we could demand at 'home'.

Stay safe.

[Beetlejuice]

Appears to be a whole load of shady goings on involving a whole load of shady characters, both farangs and Thais.

Dubious property companies and dubious dealings, involving farangs of dubious character.

The guy held £400 because he believed the work wasn’t up to standard. These people move to Thailand expecting the same standards as in the West, but for a cheaper rate. They shouldn’t be here in the first place; there is no way they are able to adapt.

Why should the police bother, use their time and resources to seek revenge on behalf of people like these?

Edited by Beetlejuice, 2012-02-01 13:32:43.

[midas]

This story involves someone who did not pay.

But I witnessed at first hand what happens when someone paid a Pattaya real estate developer upfront
but then received seriously shoddy work and then tried to sue the developer to recover the money.

My neighbour asked me to accompany him to the court just for some moral support for one of the numerous court appearances he was required
to make which just seemed to go on and on. I have to say he had been incredibly methodical with his paperwork so
he was able to provide accurate times and dates of meetings with the developers,what was said and he had all supporting
paperwork. It could be very hard for anyone to say he had anything other than a watertight case.

But I was knocked sideways when on the day I accompanied him the judge called the lawyers for both parties
together with my neighbor ( as well is myself and his Thai wife) into a small annex next to the main court room.
The defendant ( the developers ) were not there themselves in person-only their lawyers.

The judge then spoke principally to my neighbours lawyers who later told us in English what he had said.
He advised my neighbour to settle the matter because the developers were known to be violent if they were angry!
This is the judge mind you.
That moment will remain on my mind forever and as far as I'm concerned there is not one ounce of Justice for the
farang in Thailand in these disputes with developers.

[bigbamboo]

Gers1873, on 2012-02-01 10:47:07, said:

Puzzled as to why a carpenter would hire a Thai do do carpentry work in his own home?  Why did he wait till the work was complete before raising the issue - shoddy work to the trained eye is well visible before work is complete.  Seems a lot more to this stpry than is being reported.

The old saying still rings true....'if you want something doing properly do it yourself', unless you don't have the ability in which case another saying rings equally true.... 'you get what you pay for'.  If you hire Thai workers then accept that the work may not be up to Western standards but then again neither are the prices they charge. It's a compromise, that's part of life when you live here. Accept it, be fair, and in my experience everything can be worked out.

Edited by bigbamboo, 2012-02-01 13:53:47.

[NCFC]

This Brit family seem an unusual bunch IMO. Firstly, the guy is a kitchen fitter and yet can afford a 400k+ home in Thailand and send his kid to private school. Well, he must have put in some amazingly long shifts to become so wealthy in a manual labour occupation. OK, maybe it is doable, but then we learn that his brother is in Thailand and working as a builder. So do they have a registered company here and are they in possession of work permits? I think these are some issues that Mr. Drummond should be investigating because lifting up some stones may lead to a bigger story than just a 400 pound disputed bill.

And another unusual aspect is that there is no Thai involved on the Brit family's side. So the parents come to Thailand to retire is plausible, but then the two sons follow and looks like they get engaged in the building business. But most people doing this have a Thai wife or girlfriend or business partner who can at the very least guide them through some of the cultural pitfalls of doing business here. Drummond doesn't mention anybody, so are we to assume this is an extended family that just decided to up sticks and settle in Thailand for the beaches and balmy weather.

In my opinion there's a whole lot of unanswered questions, though of course one feels sorry for the family and especially the son who may lose a father through these tragic events.

[andrew55]

Beetlejuice, on 2012-02-01 13:32:08, said:

Why should the police bother, use their time and resources to seek revenge on behalf of people like these?

I wonder why you would choose the word 'revenge' rather than the more appropriate word 'justice'.

The police should bother because that's what they're there for.

Yes?

[joseph49]

terryp, on 2012-02-01 10:05:46, said:

Sadly Hua Hin is no longer the place to consider far too many murders there now as with all Thai towns that grow with foreigners the crime follows..anyone who puts almost half a million pounds into a house here must be delusional or just crazy
Hope this story turns out positive but sadly it looks like it wont; like many I would be surprised if they leave with any of the 430,000 GBP
Thailand is no game and it gets very serious if you cant handle it

terryp, on 2012-02-01 10:05:46, said:

Sadly Hua Hin is no longer the place to consider far too many murders there now as with all Thai towns that grow with foreigners the crime follows..anyone who puts almost half a million pounds into a house here must be delusional or just crazy
Hope this story turns out positive but sadly it looks like it wont; like many I would be surprised if they leave with any of the 430,000 GBP
Thailand is no game and it gets very serious if you cant handle it

        





just cancelled trip to Thailand.....

[SabaiBKK]

PaulHamon, on 2012-02-01 10:51:17, said:

March 2 2012

strange date on the article itself...

if you read the article thoroughly, as I did, it it is clear that drummond had one too many when writing it ...  its written awfully, with mixing up in names and basic grammar mistakes ....  and english is not my mother tongue.   first i thought it was written by a thai from TAN and then realized it was drummond.

[Beetlejuice]

robertson468, on 2012-02-01 12:47:49, said:

Okertes, on 2012-02-01 12:28:16, said:

Cleveland, on 2012-02-01 11:09:43, said:

The more I read about Thailand the more it looks like a lawless cesspit.

When I went to Phuket over ten years ago for my honeymoon I thought it would be the perfect place to retire to, and we visited several times a year.

Three years ago when the tuk tuk mafia took control of the transport situation, and foreigners seemed to have no rights whatoever, we havnt been back, and and I doubt we ever will. There simply seems to be no place that could be considered safe anymore, Chaing Mai, Hua Hin, Phuket etc.

We live in Chiang Mai for 2 years and we still alive and very happy :-)

I have lived on Koh Samui for seven years and even built six houses and bought two more, then turned them over to "my Thai her indoors".  She (and her Family) think I am the best thing since sliced bread, despite me being a grumpy old Brit Git.  Two years ago she said should we expand out her business, to which I said yep, but what is your game plan.  She said I will get a job and we will save the money from that for 5 years and then we can develop it further.  I also know of many Foreigners living and working on Koh Samui who are more than happy with their lot and many have Thai Families and Friends whom they value a great deal.  My point - there are hundreds, if not thousands of lovely Thai people, includng those who are married to Foreigners, who are not representative of the 0.01% mafia.  Just wanted to bring a positive view to balance the many negative views that have been expressed on the forum.  I would also say that I am extremely sorry for those who have been victims of violence, but there again, I do not know the full story behind each case.

Sounds great, but I would have to challenge your methods of purchasing these properties and whether or not these purchases of land and real estate fall under the legalities under Thai law?

Many Thais take exception to foreigners muscling in on their industries, such as the building trade for example and dealings in real estate, which contravenes Thai law.

It`s all fine until it all goes pear shaped then the farang owners complain that the Thai authorities are unhelpful and no one what’s to know. Then I would ask, well, what do they expect?

Any businesses or purchases made by farangs by not following the correct procedures strictly as prescribed by Thai law have virtually no statutory rights if they become cheated, assaulted or even murdered.

My point is that; good luck to you, but if the worst happens you will be on your own and whatever dealing farangs get involved with here in Thailand is at their own risk and discretion.

[Beetlejuice]

NCFC, on 2012-02-01 13:48:59, said:

This Brit family seem an unusual bunch IMO. Firstly, the guy is a kitchen fitter and yet can afford a 400k+ home in Thailand and send his kid to private school. Well, he must have put in some amazingly long shifts to become so wealthy in a manual labour occupation. OK, maybe it is doable, but then we learn that his brother is in Thailand and working as a builder. So do they have a registered company here and are they in possession of work permits? I think these are some issues that Mr. Drummond should be investigating because lifting up some stones may lead to a bigger story than just a 400 pound disputed bill.

And another unusual aspect is that there is no Thai involved on the Brit family's side. So the parents come to Thailand to retire is plausible, but then the two sons follow and looks like they get engaged in the building business. But most people doing this have a Thai wife or girlfriend or business partner who can at the very least guide them through some of the cultural pitfalls of doing business here. Drummond doesn't mention anybody, so are we to assume this is an extended family that just decided to up sticks and settle in Thailand for the beaches and balmy weather.

In my opinion there's a whole lot of unanswered questions, though of course one feels sorry for the family and especially the son who may lose a father through these tragic events.

Exactly.

You have explained this much better than I could.

[elektrified]

What a horrible thing to happen. My heart goes out to this man and the family.

How foolish they were to flaunt 1/2 million GBP in this country. They were even more foolish not to pay the bill. 400 Pounds? This terrible thing would not have happened had they paid the bill.

[twix38]

Agree with sabaiBKK - Drummond's reports are often poorly constructed and full of spelling, grammer and factual errors. It is sometimes like reading a poorly written Sunday Sport article with spelling errors - As well as the few mistakes already pointed out, the video clip states " Thorpe Bay in Kent" it is in Essex!!

The problem is that time and time again we find we cannot rely on Drummond's story as being completely correct and the numerous issues relating to presentation, language and grammar is really quite a key indicator of the general standard employed. I appreciate the effort of publishing the news and bringing it to our attention, but do we have a reporter out there who can write clear, well constructed, spell-checked and factually correct news stories.

finally I read this comment from a poster"...not wearing a helmet is both against the law and stupid - so even if he doesn't pull through (and I really hope he does) the police will quite probably consider his death as a self inflicted accident."
The police may charge him for not wearing his helmet, but to describe being attacked and clubbed as self inflicted!! well, ffs. LMAO

Edited by twix38, 2012-02-01 14:32:34.

[TheWalkingMan]

Quote

Any businesses or purchases made by farangs by not following the correct procedures strictly as prescribed by Thai law have virtually no statutory rights if they become cheated, assaulted or even murdered.

A little harsh, especially the murder quote.

What about the ones who have followed the rules to the letter and their business is going along, increasing its market share and making money.  The comes along some high powered individual who says, I like this business, you have 5 days to leave town or we can make arrangements for your body to be flown home.  Who you gonna call?  You would call the airlines to make a booking or you would call around looking for a place to stay far from where the business you built.

[Beetlejuice]

TheWalkingMan, on 2012-02-01 14:27:35, said:

Quote

Any businesses or purchases made by farangs by not following the correct procedures strictly as prescribed by Thai law have virtually no statutory rights if they become cheated, assaulted or even murdered.

A little harsh, especially the murder quote.

What about the ones who have followed the rules to the letter and their business is going along, increasing its market share and making money.  The comes along some high powered individual who says, I like this business, you have 5 days to leave town or we can make arrangements for your body to be flown home.  Who you gonna call?  You would call the airlines to make a booking or you would call around looking for a place to stay far from where the business you built.

Good point.

So as this is the case, than why bother starting any sorts of business in Thailand and go through all the hassle?

I stand by what I said, they do it at their own risk and descretion.

[sirchai]

LTGTR, on 2012-02-01 13:10:56, said:

God what a shame.I do hope he recovers fully.
But this is Thailand and NOTHING will be done.
Ex-pats beware especially in Hua Hin.
Thailand was once a great place to retire but after 15 months I left.It holds nothing for me.

This is old news and inaccurate. According to Paul's mother Anita, the attack took place on 21 November, not in December.
Of course, and very unfortunately, Paul wasn't wearing a helmet and it was hitting his head on the concrete road as a result of the attack that fractured his skull, not a blow to the head by his assailant who reportedly was armed with a tree branch, not a club per se.

Thailand still is a great place to live. If it's true that he wasn't wearing a helmet and crushed his skull on concrete, it would be a very different story. I'm living here for ten years, able to communicate in their language and I doubt that this could happen to me.

Receiving such a warning should make everybody understand that there's somebody very unhappy. Sad for this guy and his family, hope he'll recover fully.

A friend of mine has made a statement that you'll have to understand Thai soap operas to understand this country. I guess he was right.

If money sharks in this country don't get their money back, they'll break bones first. If that didn't work they'll tell them what will happen next. Some choose to kil themselves before they are doing it. There are many things people shouldn't do.  And that's not just here in Thailand.

People in other countries also get killed robbed, raped etc..... So how can you make such a statement after being here for only 15 months?

Some crack heads in the States or other countries would kill for a little stone......

Edited by sirchai, 2012-02-01 14:53:56.

[stoneyboy]

Beetlejuice, on 2012-02-01 13:32:08, said:

Appears to be a whole load of shady goings on involving a whole load of shady characters, both farangs and Thais.

Dubious property companies and dubious dealings, involving farangs of dubious character.

The guy held £400 because he believed the work wasn’t up to standard. These people move to Thailand expecting the same standards as in the West, but for a cheaper rate. They shouldn’t be here in the first place; there is no way they are able to adapt.

Why should the police bother, use their time and resources to seek revenge on behalf of people like these?

I am afraid everyone has the right to be here if they can afford to do so,as to what they choose to do when they get here is for another topic.

I don't know what passport you hold but in the front page of mine it states.

Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State Requests and requires in the Name of Her Majesty all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance, and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be necessary.

Therefore one would expect some assistance with a case such as this,to state that the police shouldn't waste their time and resources is downright heartless.

They have as much right to be here as you old cock.

[connda]

This is unfortunate, but it probably was avoidable. Getting into a dust-up with Thais over 20K baht worth of work on a 21M baht home? Hummm...

Break it down from a farang perspective: Hard-working construction worker with a quality work ethic contracts to have home build, but work is not up to his personal standards.  Directly tells the Thai workers that their work is inferior in a verbally abusive manner.  Under similar circumstance in his home country, he would have done the same thing and then taken the contractor to court.

Break it down from a Thai perspective: Rich, stingy farang verbally insults Thai workers who lose face.  General contractor take care to warn farang in a carefully written, explicitly well-worded letter written in excellent English.  The rest is history.

Who's at fault:  All parties?  Only the Thais? Only the farang?  It depends on your cultural perspective and what country you are currently in?  I'm thinking the latter, imho.

Now, the farang family (and community) probably wants justice, which to farang means litigation -- both criminal and/or civil.  But due to the fact they they are non-Thais living in Thailand, well, they are probably not going to get that type of justice*.  (*caveat: unless they have enough money to sway the system to their advantage and are willing to spend it).

The Thais involved probably are ok with the current outcome and will do what they can to make the issue disappear.  From their perpective, the issue has been settled.

As an expat who has lived here 5 years, my advice to my fellow expats is: If you plan on living in this country, toss your own idealized, cultural values, learn as much Thai culture as possible, and attempt to assimilate.  I truly believe that the vast majority of expats that live here eventually learn to blend in and harmonize with the surrounding culture.  If you can't do that then live in a gated community and limit you contact to fellow farang.  But that sort of defeats the purpose of moving here in the first place.

I feel sorry for Mr. Ayling and his family, and I hope for his eventual recovery, but -- there is an object lesson here for other expats who have chosen to move to this country.

According to the linked article, Mrs. Ayling said, “It’s hard to take this in. It was so senseless. Life is so cheap here yet in the brochures this is described as one of the friendliest places in the world.”

I'm not sure how long the Ayling's lived in Thailand, but I would believe they lived here long enough not to be that "blissfully ignorant" of the Thai culture.  But obviously they were.

So the object lesson here is very easy: Stay "blissfully ignorant" of the Thai culture at your own peril.  That attitude can get you seriously injured or killed.  Blunt?  Yeah!  But I am a farang, and I will be direct and blunt with fellow farang, especially if I can help someone else from putting themselves in a similar situation.

Edited by connda, 2012-02-01 15:14:59.