Prev Page 2 of 3 1 2 3 Next Please log in to reply 53 replies to this topic

[mogandave]

Case in point, oil companies at work:


Electric Car Battery Company Ener1 Files For Bankruptcy.

The Washington Post (1/27, Leonnig) reported electric car battery company Ener1, which received "a $118 million stimulus grant to expand its operations, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection Thursday after being unable to repay pressing debts. The news comes one year after Vice President Biden visited the company's new battery plant in Indiana to highlight its progress with federal funds." Ener1 follows Solyndra and Beacon Power as "the third company to seek bankruptcy protection among those the Energy Department backed as part of the president's signature program to invest in clean energy."
    The Daily Caller (1/27, Peterson) reported Biden said at the time "that the administration was 'not just creating new jobs, but sparking whole new industries that will ensure our competitiveness for decades to come -- industries like electric vehicle manufacturing.'"
    The Washington Times (1/27, McElhatton) reported the company "blamed the move on slower-than-expected demand for lithium ion batteries because of 'lower than expected adoption for electric passenger vehicles.'" Ener1 CEO Alex Sorokin said, "This was a difficult but necessary decision for our company."

[Haooo]

I would like to know how you design the charging system. What's the standard you're going to use.
I guess the charging current is at least 50A. You propose to charge it at home?

[sezze]

Hydrogen is unlimited and can be made by everybody ( allthough there are difficulties in storing it ) by pure water . When burning or let it react to fuel cell you create nothing more then water . Oil industry has nothing to do with it .
All those conspiracy theories are mostly based on nothing . Any idea good enough will make it on the market . There are no simple solutions to the energy/fuel/global warming problems ( well there are a few but they are costly , and companies are not willing to switch everything around ) . Oil in the unforseeable future is needed for many purposes and engines are a big one where we can find other solutions . Elec might be the answer if we can find a way to store elec in something cheap , non exotic thing ( not like the lithium ) . Hydrogen looks IMHO the most usefull as it is easy to transform the engine , or change it to elec ( fuel cell ) .

[mogandave]

The problem with electricity is not storing it, but transporting it. If you can transport it it cheap enough, there is no need to store it.  Batteries are a work-around, not a solution.

[Tonykalniev]

mogandave, on 2012-02-07 14:08:31, said:

The problem with electricity is not storing it, but transporting it. If you can transport it it cheap enough, there is no need to store it.  Batteries are a work-around, not a solution.

Really? you want to go to storage issues of batteries and their transportation costs? how much does it cost the entire process of crude oil? finding location to dig $$, getting experts $$, damaging nature $$$, machinery $$$, piping $$$, sea operations $$$$$$, war $$$$$$$$$$$$$$, drilling $$$$$$$$, cost of lives at the workplace $$$$, transporting crude oil back to land $$$$$, refinery process $$$$$, storage $$$, transport to petrol stations $$$$, emissions regulations $$$$ (if any), fueling up a standard car  $$$$, production of that car  $$, maintenance  $$$$$$ (see below link), cost to customers $$$$$$$.

compary this to electric cars please...


http://green.autoblo...s-gas-vs-solar/

[mogandave]

Save the tired chin-music for someone that might listen, I said nothing about storing and transporting batteries. Why don’t you try to read AND comprehend what I said and then get back to me with a coherent response, and then we’ll “compary” notes.

[VocalNeal]

MoonRiverOasis, on 2012-02-03 20:16:41, said:

If no aircon, I think I can name it: "The Sadist EV1"

I think no A/C would be OK in say Phuket for an "Island" car to nip down to the beach or out for a round of golf.

In BKK with traffic it would have to borrow it's name form an old Ford  maybe the DeSade Marquis

[mogandave]

"Study Finds Hybrid Cars Can Actually Be More Harmful To Environment.

In an article titled "Why Electric Cars Are Worse for Your Health than Gas-Powered Cars," Time (2/15) cites a study done by the University of Tennessee and published in the journal Environmental Science and Technology as saying "the use of electric vehicles may not be that clean after all, particularly in the world's most populated country, China." In fact, their studies found that "in terms of air pollution, electric vehicles were more harmful to public health per kilometer traveled than gasoline-powered cars." While that statement appears to go against common beliefs, the study notes that the use of fossil fuels to create the electricity used in the hybrid cars must be taken into account. In China, "about 85% of the country's electricity is powered by fossil fuels, of which 95% is coal." This means that, ultimately, the overall carbon footprint of hybrid vehicles would be larger than that of gas-fueled vehicles."

[MoonRiverOasis]

VocalNeal, on 2012-02-10 19:59:33, said:

MoonRiverOasis, on 2012-02-03 20:16:41, said:

If no aircon, I think I can name it: "The Sadist EV1"

I think no A/C would be OK in say Phuket for an "Island" car to nip down to the beach or out for a round of golf.

In BKK with traffic it would have to borrow it's name form an old Ford  maybe the DeSade Marquis

Hehe, OK so long as it didn't have a roof

mogandave, on 2012-02-16 10:28:52, said:

"Study Finds Hybrid Cars Can Actually Be More Harmful To Environment."

Every car is damaging to the environment

So it's either be a tree-hugger and dont' own a car, or don't be a tree-hugger and leave the saving of the environment to someone else

Trying to sell me a car based on it's green 'credentials' is like trying to sell me a piece of hand-pressed paper from an already dead tree, and comparing it's usefulness to a computer.

Edited by MoonRiverOasis, 2012-02-16 16:45:07.

[impulse]

Edit:  Let me preface this by saying I love the concept of electric vehicles, 2, 3 and 4 wheels.  I could probably make minor adjustments in my habits and an electric vehicle could serve over 3/4 of my driving needs.

But they aren't all things for all people and making unreasonable claims is not going to advance the cause....  

Now, my original post:

I can't seem to get past the OP's claim (selling point) that gasoline and diesel evaporate through steel containers and through engines.  I've got cans of Coleman fuel that have been on the shelf for 20+ years and still haven't evaporated.

Once the credibility is gone, all selling points seem to be pretty suspect....

Edited by impulse, 2012-02-16 17:36:45.

[MoonRiverOasis]

impulse, on 2012-02-16 17:12:41, said:

I can't seem to get past the OP's claim (selling point) that gasoline and diesel evaporate through steel containers and through engines.  I've got cans of Coleman fuel that have been on the shelf for 20+ years and still haven't evaporated.

Once the credibility is gone, all selling points seem to be pretty suspect....

Yep.

The only truly valid selling points for EV's are cheaper running costs (which must be matched by a reasonable purchase, servicing and resale costs to remain a factor), quieter running/improved NVH (this is not a given though), and better acceleration 'out of the hole'.

Anything else is a smokescreen IMHO.

[Tonykalniev]

impulse, on 2012-02-16 17:12:41, said:

Edit:  Let me preface this by saying I love the concept of electric vehicles, 2, 3 and 4 wheels.  I could probably make minor adjustments in my habits and an electric vehicle could serve over 3/4 of my driving needs.

But they aren't all things for all people and making unreasonable claims is not going to advance the cause....  

Now, my original post:

I can't seem to get past the OP's claim (selling point) that gasoline and diesel evaporate through steel containers and through engines.  I've got cans of Coleman fuel that have been on the shelf for 20+ years and still haven't evaporated.

Once the credibility is gone, all selling points seem to be pretty suspect....

allright, here is a link as an easy explanation for you guys that doubt...click the link and scroll below, where you can find a video...

http://green.autoblo...to-15-a-gallon/

(edit) or just a youtube link:



note the heat element for it to evaporate...you wouldnt see water evaporating in your garage or basement either, right?

Edited by Tonykalniev, 2012-02-17 20:04:48.

[mogandave]

LOL Yeah, that clears it up.

[Spoonman]

Tonykalniev, on 2012-02-17 19:48:32, said:

impulse, on 2012-02-16 17:12:41, said:

Edit:  Let me preface this by saying I love the concept of electric vehicles, 2, 3 and 4 wheels.  I could probably make minor adjustments in my habits and an electric vehicle could serve over 3/4 of my driving needs.

But they aren't all things for all people and making unreasonable claims is not going to advance the cause....  

Now, my original post:

I can't seem to get past the OP's claim (selling point) that gasoline and diesel evaporate through steel containers and through engines.  I've got cans of Coleman fuel that have been on the shelf for 20+ years and still haven't evaporated.

Once the credibility is gone, all selling points seem to be pretty suspect....

allright, here is a link as an easy explanation for you guys that doubt...click the link and scroll below, where you can find a video...

http://green.autoblo...to-15-a-gallon/

(edit) or just a youtube link:



note the heat element for it to evaporate...you wouldnt see water evaporating in your garage or basement either, right?

But that still does not substantiate your claims that my car evaporates fuel whilst sitting idle in my garage. when my car is sitting idle what is generating the heat for the fuel to evaporate ?

[mogandave]

Don't be a fool! Can't you see the wavy lines rising from the engine compartment in the picture? That proves that fuel is evaporating through the steel!

[necronx99]

There is also the production conundrum. Manufacturing a new electric car creates a massive carbon footprint.
If you wanted a car you would do less damage to the environment and save money overall by buying an existing second hand car.....


Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[WarpSpeed]

necronx99, on 2012-02-18 04:09:14, said:

There is also the production conundrum. Manufacturing a new electric car creates a massive carbon footprint.
If you wanted a car you would do less damage to the environment and save money overall by buying an existing second hand car.....


Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Even better if it burns something cleaner like LPG or NG as it's primary fuel already ..

[Tonykalniev]

necronx99, on 2012-02-18 04:09:14, said:

There is also the production conundrum. Manufacturing a new electric car creates a massive carbon footprint.
If you wanted a car you would do less damage to the environment and save money overall by buying an existing second hand car.....


Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

even cleaner when my company creates ev conversions for existing car owners...which is an objective in our company...

[Spoonman]

Tonykalniev, on 2012-02-18 15:58:59, said:

necronx99, on 2012-02-18 04:09:14, said:

There is also the production conundrum. Manufacturing a new electric car creates a massive carbon footprint.
If you wanted a car you would do less damage to the environment and save money overall by buying an existing second hand car.....


Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

even cleaner when my company creates ev conversions for existing car owners...which is an objective in our company...

So your suppliers carbon footprint is ignored then ?

[necronx99]

Spoonman, on 2012-02-18 17:31:39, said:

Tonykalniev, on 2012-02-18 15:58:59, said:

necronx99, on 2012-02-18 04:09:14, said:

There is also the production conundrum. Manufacturing a new electric car creates a massive carbon footprint.
If you wanted a car you would do less damage to the environment and save money overall by buying an existing second hand car.....


Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

even cleaner when my company creates ev conversions for existing car owners...which is an objective in our company...

So your suppliers carbon footprint is ignored then ?

No. Unicorns whisk it away for the Elves to convert into zero point modules.

[John 1]

Tonykalniev, on 2012-02-18 15:58:59, said:

necronx99, on 2012-02-18 04:09:14, said:

There is also the production conundrum. Manufacturing a new electric car creates a massive carbon footprint.
If you wanted a car you would do less damage to the environment and save money overall by buying an existing second hand car.....


Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

even cleaner when my company creates ev conversions for existing car owners...which is an objective in our company...

Start giving some details it then might shut some of the sceptics up. I don't care about carbon footprint why should I.

[MoonRiverOasis]

John 1, on 2012-02-18 18:12:06, said:

I don't care about carbon footprint why should I.

Exactly. Who cares? If you're going to own a car and drive it, you're damaging the environment, period.

You can argue about carbon this and pollutant that all day, but at the end of it all, a car that's slightly less bad for the environment than another car that's really bad for the environment, is still a car that's really bad for the environment.

My advice? These EV car companies need to stop trying to put green (or blue) lipstick on environmental pigs, and instead focus on the actual merits their products can lay claim to, e.g. cheaper running costs, better acceleration, and quieter ride etc - if in fact their designs achieve them...

[mogandave]

Lot of people buy into the whole "green" marketing thing. That combined with the regs and tax incentives make sense out of the  silliness.

[MoonRiverOasis]

mogandave, on 2012-02-18 18:41:15, said:

Lot of people buy into the whole "green" marketing thing. That combined with the regs and tax incentives make sense out of the  silliness.

Perhaps, but I'm talking about the buying public, not the politicians who subsidze hybrids/EV's so they can be competiitive against ICE's for other reasons.

To the average Somchai, the reason to go EV/Hybrid is a resounding 'because it's cheaper on/than gas' - very few will cite 'it's better for the environment' as their pirmary reason for buying..

Would you pay 25%-100% more for a car that was 'greener', given that would be it's only advantage? Of course not, and statistically, nor does anyone else

[Tonykalniev]

MoonRiverOasis, on 2012-02-18 18:26:55, said:

John 1, on 2012-02-18 18:12:06, said:

I don't care about carbon footprint why should I.

Exactly. Who cares? If you're going to own a car and drive it, you're damaging the environment, period.

You can argue about carbon this and pollutant that all day, but at the end of it all, a car that's slightly less bad for the environment than another car that's really bad for the environment, is still a car that's really bad for the environment.

My advice? These EV car companies need to stop trying to put green (or blue) lipstick on environmental pigs, and instead focus on the actual merits their products can lay claim to, e.g. cheaper running costs, better acceleration, and quieter ride etc - if in fact their designs achieve them...

Thanks for clearing that! they always argue the "which is greener" topic...i just fall into their traps all the time. why cant they realize that, like so many new EV's out there, the performance outpaces normal ICE cars, as does maintenance and long term savings on an owner's pocket...