Posted 2012-02-15 21:47:26
 chops, on 2012-02-15 17:53:41, said:
I used to sell these things. Great for fooling employers - I think. 
Are today's employers still that easily fooled? I check not only the references given but I also check the applicant's Facebook account, usually a wealth of information.
I haven't come across an applicant who graduated from a university I don't know, but would consider it due diligence to check. An HR manager who doesn't check this should be fired.
By the way, having a degree printed on Khao Sarn Road is even cheaper, so if the employer doesn't even check...
Posted 2012-02-16 00:21:49
I would strongly doubt that native Chinese will be replacing native speaking English teachers en masse anytime soon- or even replacing Filipinos.
Posted 2012-02-16 00:56:44
I know that the MoE has a list of well known "universities" that issue life experience degrees and self accridit (i.e. they have sister companies set up as accreditors and accredit their "degrees") - these are the onles that come up on the first 20 odd pages of Google if you type in "lifetime degree", "online degree", "quick degree" etc. Many different websites all listing the same "universities". These degrees are routines turned down - or so I have heard. Also heard they can be suspicious of American degrees given to non-Americans, and degrees from tiny states like Seychells for example (where there is apparantly a 'Cambridge University' that produces LE degrees).
Having said that, certain Thai politicians here with American post grad degrees taught in English when they seem to neither speak nor understand it hardly at all - makes me wonder if LE Degrees and attendence degrees from some of these American universities are all that different!
Sometimes LE Degrees are valid IMO - I have a real masters in IT, but I also worked for more than twenty years for very large international companies doing some very techie stuff - I sure as h3ll learned more from 6 years (usinmg the Op's list) on the job than I did 2 years doing the MSc (building on 4 years BSc in maths). However, teaching should require some teachin experience - I think a teaching degree is overboard, but a teaching course (say 6-10 weeks long with real monitored/assessed classroom experience).
In the UK where I went to school all those years ago, several of my teachers came from industry with degrees (sometime not - like photography, metal and wood work, carreers, etc) not always in their given field (my history teacher one year had a degree in English) that they used or aquired before coming to education. Then the law changed and teacher were required to also have teaching degrees. So, what happened? Now, although wages are much better than they once were, there is a shortage of teachers - and now we have maths teachers teaching chemistry, biology teachers teaching maths, and so on, to fill the gaps. That really helped!
Posted 2012-02-16 08:35:39
Is it possible to request a copy of the list that the many departments use to check a degree.
As an example I know of a few teachers that have used degrees from a Uni in America, that when checked out on the internet seems to be, and this sounds strange, an accredited university even though the website states that it issues life experience degrees.
I also know a guy, on another forum, who has a MA Tesol from a university that is well and truly accredited, although from an island state in the South Pacific. This particular uni does insist on all students enrolling and taking all of the courses online. No mention whatsoever of any life experience being taken into account. The guy I know took the course there, was also accepted at a British uni, based on cost alone. The fee he paid was just over 3000pounds. In Britain it would have been between 5 and 7000. Obviously there is an element of paying for the university name too.
So to conclude he has taken and passed an MA from an accredited university by doing all of the work. Is he going to get penalised because the place may not be ranked high enough on "the list".
Posted 2012-02-16 09:00:57
As I mentioned before, it's the school that validates the certificate. The MoE will accept the school's validation and only investigate if they have information that the degree is fake/false. That's certainly the case in Chiang Mai.
Posted 2012-02-16 09:42:32
This is actually a considerable pain in the butt for all concerned. I did a quick search on my database for this Belford university, and up popped 11 people with a degree from there that have registered; most were American, a couple of Indians, and 2 hiso Thais with the prefix Dr... courtesy of their bought PhDs. Worryingly enough, a lot of them are working in HSE critical roles, and one of the Thai nationals is a public speak on this subject.
Jumping onto Wiki to see the list of "unaccredited universities", for Unaccredited, read fake, and there are so many of them particularly with names very close to real institutions that it is really tough for people who might not be au fait with universities outside of their own country.
Some examples...
American University of Hawaii
Ashford University
Atlanta University,
Bennington University
Bridgewater University
Cal Southern University
Canbourne University
European Open University
Greenwich University[
Kingston College
LaSalle University (Louisiana)
University of Humberside
and my favourite, from where I will be ordering my Doctor of Medicine from this afternoon,.,,
United Nations University,
Posted 2012-02-16 10:43:09
If I had one of those phony life time experience degrees, I would hate to go thru life knowing that at any moment my academic background could be exposed and everyone would think of me as a fraud. What if I had a family.....I might be fired from my job and have no way to support my family. If we had a house and car payments we could lose both. Imagine that sick feeling in my stomach when I am standing in front of my wife telling her that my degree that was part of the security she might have considered when she married me was fake. Imagine the lost trust and damage to the relationship. Then going to work to collect my things....everyone looking at me. They all think I am a fraud.
I think a real degree is the best way to go.
Posted 2012-02-16 11:01:29
AdamBanks, on 2012-02-16 09:42:32, said:
I was little surprised to read that as the University of Greenwich is a reputable university that runs an accredited BEd. However, a little Googling showed me there is a Greenwich University (Pakistani) and a University of Greenwich (UK and reputable). I wonder if anyone has had their BEd from UofG knocked back after a Google search by a Thai admin.
Edited by Loaded, 2012-02-16 11:13:28.
Posted 2012-02-16 11:12:54
richard10365, on 2012-02-16 10:43:09, said:
If I had one of those phony life time experience degrees, I would hate to go thru life knowing that at any moment my academic background could be exposed and everyone would think of me as a fraud. What if I had a family.....I might be fired from my job and have no way to support my family. If we had a house and car payments we could lose both. Imagine that sick feeling in my stomach when I am standing in front of my wife telling her that my degree that was part of the security she might have considered when she married me was fake. Imagine the lost trust and damage to the relationship. Then going to work to collect my things....everyone looking at me. They all think I am a fraud.
I think a real degree is the best way to go.
The end of the world and no doubt suicide to follow.
I agree that a real degree is the way to go. There are on-line courses from institutions as reputable as the Uni of London. Alternatively, enroll at a Thai university. However, is a Thai University degree recognised in any developed country? If not, it's going to be as worthless as a life-experience degree in a Western country.
Edited by Loaded, 2012-02-16 11:14:12.
Posted 2012-02-16 11:44:44
Loaded, on 2012-02-16 11:12:54, said:
richard10365, on 2012-02-16 10:43:09, said:
If I had one of those phony life time experience degrees, I would hate to go thru life knowing that at any moment my academic background could be exposed and everyone would think of me as a fraud. What if I had a family.....I might be fired from my job and have no way to support my family. If we had a house and car payments we could lose both. Imagine that sick feeling in my stomach when I am standing in front of my wife telling her that my degree that was part of the security she might have considered when she married me was fake. Imagine the lost trust and damage to the relationship. Then going to work to collect my things....everyone looking at me. They all think I am a fraud.
I think a real degree is the best way to go.
The end of the world and no doubt suicide to follow.
I agree that a real degree is the way to go. There are on-line courses from institutions as reputable as the Uni of London. Alternatively, enroll at a Thai university. However, is a Thai University degree recognised in any developed country? If not, it's going to be as worthless as a life-experience degree in a Western country.
I get that question alot at Payap so I emailed Harvard, Cambridge and UCLA and asked if I graduate with a bachelors degree from Payap University would they accept my degree as meeting the requirement for further study?
They all said as long the institution that issued the degree is accredited by the government body that regulates education in that country where the issuing school is located, then the would accept that degree.
Now if a business in the west is so short sighed as to not see the value in an international degree issued in Thailand, the center of the AEC, then I would not want to work for that business anyway.
I suspect there are many people who also feel the same way about education in Thailand which is based on something they heard from someone else. I have been studying for 4 years at Payap. We are using western textbooks (mostly from the USA), international and Thai professors, and tested on the knowledge I have learned many times. If I am unsure about what I am learning, I can easily go to YouTube and see Stanford teachers teaching the same material that I am learning here in Chiang Mai. Just presented differently. I have failed about 4 courses at Payap which I had to take over because I am not good at math and needed to take the class again for a 2nd time to fully understand it. The teachers are not perfect, the bureaucracy here is no perfect. Sometimes I find Payap very frustrating; however, I'm sure students in Europe and the US have had similiar experiences in their schools. Anyone who says Thai international programs are not comparable to programs in the west don't really know what they are talking about.
A degree from Payap University is a million times better than a life time experience degree. I earned my degree the way that society feels degrees should be earned. Hard work and study.
Posted 2012-02-16 12:14:31
I do not think there is any fraud involved as long as if questioned they say it is an experienced unaccredited certificate. After all, a lot of universities will allow people with work experience entrance to their second year, and this is not fraud.
Posted 2012-02-16 12:18:37
tombkk, on 2012-02-15 21:47:26, said:
chops, on 2012-02-15 17:53:41, said: I used to sell these things. Great for fooling employers - I think.
Are today's employers still that easily fooled? I check not only the references given but I also check the applicant's Facebook account, usually a wealth of information.
I haven't come across an applicant who graduated from a university I don't know, but would consider it due diligence to check. An HR manager who doesn't check this should be fired.
By the way, having a degree printed on Khao Sarn Road is even cheaper, so if the employer doesn't even check...
I still don't understand why any teacher would have a facebook with their real name or any connection to themselves. My facebook has been made rather difficult to find. Had 4 classes of 9th graders just spend a whole semester trying to find me without success. I don't even have things on there I would be ashamed of either!
Posted 2012-02-16 12:22:54
Loaded, on 2012-02-16 11:01:29, said:
AdamBanks, on 2012-02-16 09:42:32, said:
I was little surprised to read that as the University of Greenwich is a reputable university that runs an accredited BEd. However, a little Googling showed me there is a Greenwich University (Pakistani) and a University of Greenwich (UK and reputable). I wonder if anyone has had their BEd from UofG knocked back after a Google search by a Thai admin.
My sister has a BSc and MSc from Greenwich University - in London. Its a huge university with many campuses (it was cobbled together from mergers of several colleges, polytechnics and a university). When I have seen lists before the country is often put in brackets after to differntiate : "Cambrige University (Seychells)" for example differs from "Cambridge University (England)"
Posted 2012-02-16 12:29:58
Loaded, on 2012-02-16 09:00:57, said:
As I mentioned before, it's the school that validates the certificate. The MoE will accept the school's validation and only investigate if they have information that the degree is fake/false. That's certainly the case in Chiang Mai.
So what about the TCT when applying for a TL. I cannot imagine that the TCT would leave it up to schools.
Posted 2012-02-16 13:02:15
puchooay, on 2012-02-16 12:29:58, said:
Loaded, on 2012-02-16 09:00:57, said:
As I mentioned before, it's the school that validates the certificate. The MoE will accept the school's validation and only investigate if they have information that the degree is fake/false. That's certainly the case in Chiang Mai.
So what about the TCT when applying for a TL. I cannot imagine that the TCT would leave it up to schools.
The TCT office contains around 5 people to process teacher licenses, and waivers, for all Thai and foreign teachers. It's almost impossible to get someone to answer their phones and emails aren't responded to. I would put money on they don't check but take the schools word instead.
Posted 2012-02-16 13:45:43
BlackArtemis, on 2012-02-16 12:18:37, said:
tombkk, on 2012-02-15 21:47:26, said:
chops, on 2012-02-15 17:53:41, said: I used to sell these things. Great for fooling employers - I think.
Are today's employers still that easily fooled? I check not only the references given but I also check the applicant's Facebook account, usually a wealth of information.
I haven't come across an applicant who graduated from a university I don't know, but would consider it due diligence to check. An HR manager who doesn't check this should be fired.
By the way, having a degree printed on Khao Sarn Road is even cheaper, so if the employer doesn't even check...
I still don't understand why any teacher would have a facebook with their real name or any connection to themselves. My facebook has been made rather difficult to find. Had 4 classes of 9th graders just spend a whole semester trying to find me without success. I don't even have things on there I would be ashamed of either!
Also as many people make their content private and only viewable by friends, there are limits to what you can glean unless you are able to hack their account.
Posted 2012-02-16 23:31:34
Loaded, on 2012-02-16 11:12:54, said:
richard10365, on 2012-02-16 10:43:09, said:
If I had one of those phony life time experience degrees, I would hate to go thru life knowing that at any moment my academic background could be exposed and everyone would think of me as a fraud. What if I had a family.....I might be fired from my job and have no way to support my family. If we had a house and car payments we could lose both. Imagine that sick feeling in my stomach when I am standing in front of my wife telling her that my degree that was part of the security she might have considered when she married me was fake. Imagine the lost trust and damage to the relationship. Then going to work to collect my things....everyone looking at me. They all think I am a fraud.
I think a real degree is the best way to go.
The end of the world and no doubt suicide to follow.
I agree that a real degree is the way to go. There are on-line courses from institutions as reputable as the Uni of London. Alternatively, enroll at a Thai university. However, is a Thai University degree recognised in any developed country? If not, it's going to be as worthless as a life-experience degree in a Western country.
Degrees from Thai universities accredited by the Ministry of Education are recognised world-wide. In Thailand, a teaching institution is not allowed to call themselves a university if they are not approved by the MoE. I have an MBA from a Thai university, teach as a guest lecturer at a Thai university (with many international students), and am pursuing my PhD at a Thai university. All these degrees are internationally recognized.
Other countries see that differently. In the US, you can call your learning institution a university, and the accreditation is another step. Before I knew about all this, I came across a university in Hawaii that offered a Master's degree based on life-time experience. I found it a bit fishy and did some background checks - and indeed, they were not accredited.
So, it's not the country were the university is based, but the regulations in that country that let's them use the term "university"in their company name. Check with the Ministry of Education in the respective country whether they are accredited. And if the university says they are approved by the US Department of Foreign Affairs, ask them for the email address, so you can verify it...
Posted 2012-02-16 23:33:31
AdamBanks, on 2012-02-16 09:42:32, said:
This is actually a considerable pain in the butt for all concerned. I did a quick search on my database for this Belford university, and up popped 11 people with a degree from there that have registered; most were American, a couple of Indians, and 2 hiso Thais with the prefix Dr... courtesy of their bought PhDs. Worryingly enough, a lot of them are working in HSE critical roles, and one of the Thai nationals is a public speak on this subject.
Jumping onto Wiki to see the list of "unaccredited universities", for Unaccredited, read fake, and there are so many of them particularly with names very close to real institutions that it is really tough for people who might not be au fait with universities outside of their own country.
Some examples...
American University of Hawaii
Ashford University
Atlanta University,
Bennington University
Bridgewater University
Cal Southern University
Canbourne University
European Open University
Greenwich University[
Kingston College
LaSalle University (Louisiana)
University of Humberside
and my favourite, from where I will be ordering my Doctor of Medicine from this afternoon,.,,
United Nations University,
There is a UN University:
http://unu.edu/
Posted 2012-02-16 23:57:41
Academic Programmes
The United Nations University offers a variety of academic programmes in line with its obligations under Article I, Clause 7 of the UNU Charter, which states that “the University shall assist scholars, especially young scholars, to participate in research in order to increase their capability to contribute to the extension, application and diffusion of knowledge”.
In December 2009, the UN General Assembly approved an amendment to the UNU Charter, Article I, Clause 8, to facilitate UNU’s role as a global graduate school with the ability to “grant and confer master’s degrees and doctorates, diplomas, certificates and other academic distinctions”.
Across the various UNU institutes, credited programmes are offered at the master’s degree and doctorate levels. In addition, UNU continues to offer a variety of continuing professional and executive education reaching over 3,000 young professionals each year, mainly from developing countries.
CONTACT
Office of Academic Affairs
United Nations University
5-53-70 Jingumae
Shibuya-ku, Tokyo
Japan 150
Edited by tombkk, 2012-02-17 00:06:39.
Unnessary slime remark deleted.
Posted 2012-02-17 09:47:25
AdamBanks, on 2012-02-16 09:42:32, said:
This is actually a considerable pain in the butt for all concerned. I did a quick search on my database for this Belford university, and up popped 11 people with a degree from there that have registered; most were American, a couple of Indians, and 2 hiso Thais with the prefix Dr... courtesy of their bought PhDs. Worryingly enough, a lot of them are working in HSE critical roles, and one of the Thai nationals is a public speak on this subject.
Jumping onto Wiki to see the list of "unaccredited universities", for Unaccredited, read fake, and there are so many of them particularly with names very close to real institutions that it is really tough for people who might not be au fait with universities outside of their own country.
Some examples...
American University of Hawaii
Ashford University
Atlanta University,
Bennington University
Bridgewater University
Cal Southern University
Canbourne University
European Open University
Greenwich University[
Kingston College
LaSalle University (Louisiana)
University of Humberside
and my favourite, from where I will be ordering my Doctor of Medicine from this afternoon,.,,
United Nations University,
We had a guy walk in with a Bachelors of Administration degree from Belford University. He wanted to study our Masters TESOL program. We rejected his education credentials as being fake. We never saw him again.
Posted 2012-02-18 10:42:33
I want a degree, but I am not intelligent enough or too lazy to actually make it through even a community college + tranasfer to mediocre state college.
I work in a field in which a degree is perhaps the paramount determining factor of hiring - so I am faking it becasue I am a fraud.
Communications - Study TV and media. The "Mrs." degree of the 90s-10s. Idiot's diploma
Education - The school marm degree, only (women) seeking to teach K-6 would persue this unless it is an MA/PHD and they were going into administration. This in the US is a bigger loser degree than Communications.
T/ESL - These are more scam majors and in fact, there was a time that even the lesser legitimate universities would never offer a BA let alone an MA in such. A PHD in such a subject is laughable. These days, some legitimate schools in states are offering this turd degree but it is often as certificate or online or sometihing like that. As the international teaching industry rose up, many schools could not leave that sweet money on the table. A BA in TESL, laughable.
I have limited but poor experiences with "professional teachers" and "administrators" that had taken the ED, TESL route. Funny how serious and professional they take themselves, an obvious ruse as they know how shallow their real academic training is. I would take an applicant with a BA from a good university before I would touch anyone with a MA/PHD in Education or (snark) TESL.
Teaching "English" is simply about handling a class well (not boring your students), getting them to interact and HOPEFULLY you will have a few that will do some homework (study vocab). Not rocket science and no need for a degree.
I detest the Philippino now Indonesian - Thailand should NEVER host these teachers. It is so annoyingly sing-song.
Unless those KSR printed degrees have become better all you need to do is use a loupe and have a look at the printing - you will see its off a laser printer. Besides - who carries around their diploma and where are your transcripts! Have my diploma right here....(fake duh).
Thailand - never was so much asked of an employee to which was paid so little and given so much hassle.
Edited by bangkokburning, 2012-02-18 10:45:53.
Posted 2012-02-18 11:28:48
Teaching English is not only about handling a class well - it is also about knowing the grammar (you won't believe how some "English teachers" spell) and about teaching techniques.
Also, you may not like the Filipino or Indonesian accent, but some of the teacher coming from those countries are better qualified to teach English than native speakers who have no qualification except for having grown up in an English-speaking country.
No, I am not an English teacher. But I do agree with the MoE's required that teachers must have a qualification. The question here is whether life experience (i.e. having taught for so many years) should be acceptable as a qualification. One way to find out would be independently testing the students to evaluate the teacher.
Posted 2012-02-18 14:55:04
Providing a quality education should be the goal of schools. Schools are best staffed by people with a degree in education. Most employers can quickly and easily spot those with an education degree over those without. Employees who major in education have usually chosen it as a profession. They are committed and it is what they want to do. There are exception.
English is best taught by native speakers with a degree in education, if none are available, they should be taught by people with a degree. If none are availabe, they should be taught by someone with a TEFL. Again, people with a TEFL have some training in the area of education.
Non-native speakers should only be employed to teach English as a last resort. Non-native speakers can be effective if they have good resources, including CD's etc. Again, there are exceptions.
Where I work, we employ a large number of non-native speakers, but they are primarily subject teachers--Mathematics, Science, Social Studies, Health Education, Physical Education, Music etc.. Most have education degrees and are committed workers who produce excellent results in their teaching.
Just my take on the situation.
Posted 2012-02-19 15:45:51
Yooyung, on 2012-02-08 13:16:49, said:
I would like to think that after coming back to Aus to get a degree that I could find at least some schools/language institutes or whatever that will take into account my quals and the fact that they are REAL!
I had a very similar experience to you. My first teaching experience in LOS was at the place with the name of a tobaco company. Others teaching there put me in touch with a large private Catholic school chain that was equally if not more dodgy... Anyway, after 2 years of teaching, I returned to Australia to earn a degree. I studied through Open Universities Australia whilst working full-time in Oz and after 4years of studying I have ended up with 2 bachelor degrees, one from Griffith and one from Macquarie. It's good to read a post from someone who had a similar experience. I don't know if I'll ever use the degrees for anything or even return to Thailand (hopefully I can use them for something as I spent about $15,000AUD and used 4 years of my life), but if I do return to Thailand to teach at least I know I will have a real degree behind me...
Posted 2012-02-19 17:45:05
I come from the UK, and around thirty years ago, I completed a four year apprentiship, and gained two City&Guilds certificates. During this time I studied at a College of Further Education, which is now part of the University of Kent.
I now teach in Thailand, and wanted to get a work permit.
I went to the British Embassy with my two original certificates, and signed a statutory declaration, saying that I had studied for four years at a college that was now part of a university, and I believed that my four years of study, plus my three years teaching experience, was the equivalent to a modern day masters degree.
The declaration was signed by me and a member of the embassy staff, then embossed with the embassy seal. I took it along to the MOE, and collected my work permit seven days later.
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