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[Honolulu]

Until reading this thread, I always assumed that the service charge was to replace the tip. In a restaurant there is the food preparation, the overhead, the service, and the entertainment. If they tack on a charge for the entertainment, it would be called an entertainment charge, and rightly so. Why would I assume that a service charge was for something other than the service?

Sounds like restaurant owners are taking a page from the used car salesman's playbook, and I will be boycotting the service charge from now on. I hope food servers do the same.TRUTH in advertising.

[MJo]

Ulysses G., on 2012-02-13 05:54:31, said:

MJo, on 2012-02-12 22:53:08, said:

Ulysses G., on 2012-02-12 21:19:17, said:

MJo, on 2012-02-12 19:38:05, said:

I also believe Thai system is geared towards decent base salary .

This statement kind of defeats the rest of your argument.

Let's say a employee is getting paid 15k a month. If he/she works in restaurant you feel obliged to tip her 20% on top salary.

The problem with that theory is is that most of the restaurant staff are getting closer to 6,000 baht and having to put up with demanding customers who do not speak their language.
Thai customers often do tip, by the way, but usually not as much as Westerners.

Not really, i just used 15k as sample. Could have used 6k or whatever. The point is that restaurant you tip but when purchasing other services where staff makes same kind of money you don't.

[wolf5370]

Actually this pisses me off a little - and I run a cafe! Service charge is a rip off pure and simple - if you like my service and get good service then tip the staff (in my cafe we put it in a tin and its shared by the cook and serving staff at the end of the month - usually a couple of days wages each give or take). The thing that annoys me is that the American idea of percentages (ever increasing thereof) - please guys leave it at home, the rest of the world wants to decide themselves how much, if at all, to tip. Thais generally leave the shrapnel (coins) - some restaurants are wise to this and give change instead of 20 or even 50 baht notes - Thais (I have noticed) simply remove all the change and leave a ten or two behind - farangs often seem to leave it all (or take the change and leave a 20). This is a western habbit, tipping everyone, most Thai places really do not expect it at all - its should be a bonus, a reward for good service, not a right and not part of the price. Just because you are intimidated into patying 20% ott to some miserable sod serving you burgers and fries at home, don't export it and make it an expectation here too. Thank you.

[Jingthing]

To be clear, I didn't start this thread in any way to advocate that people tip in Thailand based on percentages when they have a CHOICE of how they tip (places without a service charge). I agree there is no logic in exporting American or whatever tipping culture to Thailand. Thailand has its own tipping culture and I feel expats should attempt to follow the Thai tipping culture model, in Thailand. Of course, many people want to tip as they always have before, and I feel that's a personal choice and totally cool as well. In any case, when there IS a mandatory service charge, it IS based on percentage of bill, whether we like it or not, there is NO CHOICE. So I am saying when we are forced in this way to pay a mandatory service charge based on percentage, it sure would be nice to be assured that money is actually going to the service staff. That is all. (For now.)

[Ulysses G.]

MJo, on 2012-02-14 00:34:54, said:

Not really, i just used 15k as sample. Could have used 6k or whatever. The point is that restaurant you tip but when purchasing other services where staff makes same kind of money you don't.

So what? Other kinds of workers usually don't have to wait on and put up with demanding foreigners that do not speak their language.

[Jayman]

wolf5370, on 2012-02-14 01:10:37, said:

Actually this pisses me off a little - and I run a cafe! Service charge is a rip off pure and simple - if you like my service and get good service then tip the staff (in my cafe we put it in a tin and its shared by the cook and serving staff at the end of the month - usually a couple of days wages each give or take). The thing that annoys me is that the American idea of percentages (ever increasing thereof) - please guys leave it at home, the rest of the world wants to decide themselves how much, if at all, to tip. Thais generally leave the shrapnel (coins) - some restaurants are wise to this and give change instead of 20 or even 50 baht notes - Thais (I have noticed) simply remove all the change and leave a ten or two behind - farangs often seem to leave it all (or take the change and leave a 20). This is a western habbit, tipping everyone, most Thai places really do not expect it at all - its should be a bonus, a reward for good service, not a right and not part of the price. Just because you are intimidated into patying 20% ott to some miserable sod serving you burgers and fries at home, don't export it and make it an expectation here too. Thank you.

I'm American and I approve this statement

[MJo]

Ulysses G., on 2012-02-14 06:58:57, said:

MJo, on 2012-02-14 00:34:54, said:

Not really, i just used 15k as sample. Could have used 6k or whatever. The point is that restaurant you tip but when purchasing other services where staff makes same kind of money you don't.

So what? Other kinds of workers usually don't have to wait on and put up with demanding foreigners that do not speak their language.

Really, your statement covers pretty much everyone in sales or services.

Maybe you have cracked the double pricing standard though, never realized we pay more because we are demanding, rude and speak weird languages. You won't see me complaining on farang prices anymore

[mca]

If you dine at an internationally managed hotel's restaurant the service charge will go to the staff. It's written into the staff's contract that they will receive a service charge as part of the benefit package along with annual bonus, health insurance, meals in the canteen etc. The Thai owner of one hotel in my experience was interested in having the company I worked for manage his hotel but was having problems getting his head round giving the service charge to the staff. He was politely informed that if he wanted to stick it in his pocket as opposed to passing it on to the staff then the chain would simply walk away from the management deal.Many local hotel staff change jobs not for extra pay but for the service charge on offer.

In a number of cases in a popular property it can double the salary of the junior staff.

Now as for Lek's Goy and Sticky Rice Emporium I can't say......................

[Jingthing]

mca, on 2012-02-17 06:32:03, said:

...

Now as for Lek's Goy and Sticky Rice Emporium I can't say......................

That's good to know about international corporate type places, but please believe there are lots of very nice and popular places charging mandatory service charges that are not at that level, but also not local dives.

Speaking of which, today ...

I visited one of my regular places. A slick newish restaurant that charges a 10 percent mandatory service charge. I have not been tipping on top of that assuming it was in place of a tip and the waiters were getting the money.

Well, today, there was a new waiter who did the obnoxious Thai thing of standing at the table after bringing the change.

So I said to him, why are you waiting, I already paid the ten percent on the bill.

He said, no we don't get that.

So then I questioned him more closely to explain himself more clearly, and he made it clear, the waiters get NONE of it.

There were two other waiters around that I recognize, very sober, credible looking people (I wasn't so sure about this new waiter).

So I asked them, and they confirmed. They get not 10 percent. Not 5 percent. Rather 0 percent. -- NADA

One waitress DID say that some of the money is used occasionally for staff events; I assume she means company "parties" for the staff, NO CASH!

So I talked more, saying well European people see "service charge" and think that means it goes for a tip for the staff.

They agreed, they fully understood that. They made it clear many people are like me, see the mandatory service charge, and don't tip more.

So I said, this isn't fair to the customer or to the waiters -- you need to complain to your boss (EUROPEANS).

They got all nervous. We can't complain. We will lose our job. It was clear to me I had hit upon a BIG ISSUE for them and they were miserable about it.

I also realized even talking about openly was a dangerous area for them. The main reason it came up was the coarse waiting around for a tip behavior of the new waiter.

Now tell me this is a victimless situation? The owners are totally exploiting their staff on this, with the fear factor.

Even the customers that DO tip on top of the mandatory service charge probably mostly ASSUME the 10 percent is ALSO going to to the staff and may tip less.

Personally, not sure how am I going to react to my new consciousness of what some restaurants are doing here. Obviously, if I don't love their food, it's no issue, just don't go. But some of these places have food that I love. I have now decided that its better to know the information than not know it. Then what to do with the information? I guess it depends.

Edited by Jingthing, 2012-02-17 19:40:17.

[Jayman]

I wish we could be more public about naming the establishments that are shown to charge a service charge and not give it all or any to the service staff.  I do understand that it would quickly get this thread closed as we don't want to upset any (potential) advertisers.

[Jingthing]

Jayman, on 2012-02-17 22:31:43, said:

I wish we could be more public about naming the establishments that are shown to charge a service charge and not give it all or any to the service staff.  I do understand that it would quickly get this thread closed as we don't want to upset any (potential) advertisers.

Yes, I agree. But I guess we have to suck it up just like those exploited waiters. Deal with it, or leave.

[Wallaby]

Jingthing, on 2012-02-17 22:35:28, said:

Jayman, on 2012-02-17 22:31:43, said:

I wish we could be more public about naming the establishments that are shown to charge a service charge and not give it all or any to the service staff.  I do understand that it would quickly get this thread closed as we don't want to upset any (potential) advertisers.

Yes, I agree. But I guess we have to suck it up just like those exploited waiters. Deal with it, or leave.

Did you try raising the issue with the owners (if they were there)?

I would be mightily pissed off if I found out a service charge was lining the pockets of only the owners.  That being the case the full charge should be on the menu, not some small print.

It's a bloody disgrace.

[Jingthing]

Wallaby, on 2012-02-18 15:01:02, said:

Jingthing, on 2012-02-17 22:35:28, said:

Jayman, on 2012-02-17 22:31:43, said:

I wish we could be more public about naming the establishments that are shown to charge a service charge and not give it all or any to the service staff.  I do understand that it would quickly get this thread closed as we don't want to upset any (potential) advertisers.

Yes, I agree. But I guess we have to suck it up just like those exploited waiters. Deal with it, or leave.

Did you try raising the issue with the owners (if they were there)?

I would be mightily pissed off if I found out a service charge was lining the pockets of only the owners.  That being the case the full charge should be on the menu, not some small print.

It's a bloody disgrace.

While talking with the waiters, they made it pretty clear to me that for me to raise it with the owners may get THEM in trouble, in the sense that talking to me and revealing the truth was a kind of complaining about the job. I think they were right and the last thing I want to do is make things worse for them.

I totally agree the policy is a disgrace. It's stealing from the waiters and the customers, mostly I think assume its extra money for the staff whether they tip over it or not. In my view, its a false statement on an implied contract (the menu).  If your order salmon and get bologna you don't expect to pay for salmon.

Edited by Jingthing, 2012-02-18 15:08:22.

[ronz28]

Another red flag are tip jars.  When you observe tip jars and a "captain" taking the orders while others bring the food out, etc., you might ask if the severs actually get any of the tip money.  In some Thai owned restaurants they do not, but the severs dutifully deposit the money in the tip jars and never see any of it again.

[Jayman]

ronz28, on 2012-02-18 21:02:32, said:

Another red flag are tip jars.  When you observe tip jars and a "captain" taking the orders while others bring the food out, etc., you might ask if the severs actually get any of the tip money.  In some Thai owned restaurants they do not, but the severs dutifully deposit the money in the tip jars and never see any of it again.

I was unaware of that practice.  My wife once worked in a Thai run restaurant that had a tip jar and at the end of the shift all tips were shared among cashier,cooks, and service (basically all workers other than manager).  Of course different restaurants do things differently as there are no regulations to this.

I will start asking more questions rather than making assumptions when it comes to where the tip money I give goes.  Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

Edited by Jayman, 2012-02-18 21:07:15.

[wolf5370]

ronz28, on 2012-02-18 21:02:32, said:

Another red flag are tip jars.  When you observe tip jars and a "captain" taking the orders while others bring the food out, etc., you might ask if the severs actually get any of the tip money.  In some Thai owned restaurants they do not, but the severs dutifully deposit the money in the tip jars and never see any of it again.

We have a tip jar (used to be a tip donkey, but it got dropped, so now its a tip tin moneybox ) - anyway, all tips go in it (and sometimes small change from shopping too) and all of it goes to the non-owning staff equally based on the days they worked (which we think is fairest way to do it). Any odd baht left due to rounding, stays in the tin for the next month. Only time its opened before then is to make change occasionally and then its notes in, coins out.

The tin is not in site of customers, and staff are not allowed to stand and beg (or give puss-in-boot eyes or lay on their backs waiting for a tummy rub). Tips left on the table (or in the receipt folder) or given to waitresses (no waiters) gets deposited in the tin. Mrs makes sure they all work in equal measure - not so busy that she has to slave drive and when busy she works kitchen and cafe as required (if not at school, kids help too before bed).

In short, tip jars are not necessarily red flags - I think service charge is much more of one. I have heard of people being held for refusing to pay them. In the UK - I know, not Thailand, but - an Italian restaurant owner was arrested after locking in a customer who refused to pay it on the grounds that the service stank - wonder how that would go down here, refusal to pay?

Personally I think keeping the service charge is either fraud (against the customers) or theft (from the staff) - but not likely to be looked into here (although western owners may be in danger perhaps of getting a sting from the local BiB).,