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[ronz28]

That's a novel theory personchester.  What country in the world practices that?  Is that customary where you are from?  

If all prices were set that way at restaurants in a country, I guess I would pay it, otherwise I would avoid eating at a place with such a pricing structure because the prices would not be competitive.  I would just vote with my feet and go where I would get better value for my money and still tip.

Edited by ronz28, 2012-02-06 12:28:17.

[Jingthing]

personchester, on 2012-02-06 11:49:29, said:

Jingthing, on 2012-02-06 01:38:53, said:

ronz28, on 2012-02-06 00:30:27, said:

I have never heard of personchester's interpretation before.  I have always thought any service charge added goes to the service staff and if the percent is less than I thought warranted I would add some.  I don't like service charges as I prefer the person serving me to get the tip and any sharing that goes on among the staff is up to them.

That's how I see it exactly. That is why it makes me ANGRY to hear that in some (or even many?) places in Thailand the service staff is NOT getting that money as a tip like bonus.

You don't seem to understand it, showing the costs of individual items on the bill
is a detailed price structure for customers to take knowledge of.

The "service charge" is part of the restaurants general labour cost and therefore belongs rightly and correctly to the restaurant, and not to the staff, and it can not be regarded as tips.

Staff know they do not depend on "service charges", and know it's not their money, because they are being paid wages in a normal way, no matter whether the restaurant is busy or not, and that is to their advantage, otherwise, if depending on "service charges" low business periods would not provide sufficient income for them, they would have to leave, and look for a new job.

Are you speaking as an insider manager/owner of a restaurant in Thailand with a 10 percent service charge?

[Ulysses G.]

personchester, on 2012-02-06 11:49:29, said:

The "service charge" is part of the restaurants general labour cost and therefore belongs rightly and correctly to the restaurant, and not to the staff, and it can not be regarded as tips.

IMO it is dishonest to charge customers a service charge to use for paying the staff's salary. Restaurants should use their profits for that like every other business. Most employees here are paid next to nothing anyway.

Edited by Ulysses G., 2012-02-06 12:51:52.

[cardholder]

Ulysses G., on 2012-02-06 12:50:53, said:

personchester, on 2012-02-06 11:49:29, said:

The "service charge" is part of the restaurants general labour cost and therefore belongs rightly and correctly to the restaurant, and not to the staff, and it can not be regarded as tips.

IMO it is dishonest to charge customers a service charge to use for paying the staff's salary. Restaurants should use their profits for that like every other business. Most employees here are paid next to nothing anyway.

Six and 2 threes.

Doesn't matter how they dress it up, at the end of the day a business has revenue lines (including an item like service charge) and cost lines. The difference is profit or loss.

Unless there is a policy of allocating all the service charge as 'gratuity' then it is simply a way of splitting the overall cost of the meal.

Personally, I don't like to see service charge added. As long as it is clearly highlighted then at least I have the choice of using that restaurant or not. I would prefer any such charge (unless used as gratuity) incorporated in the food and drink prices - I would also prefer to have gratuities left to MY discretion.

Edited by cardholder, 2012-02-06 13:07:44.

[harryfrompattaya]

Jingthing, on 2012-02-06 00:17:10, said:

This thread is bringing out something I hadn't even thought of. Am I totally wrong to feel that when a service charge is added to the bill which you MUST pay, in Thailand or any country, the implied MEANING of that is that the money is for the staff as an extra income, similar to a tip? One poster seems to be saying I have been wrong. I am not convinced. Please discuss.

I respect you but I cannot believe that you did not known the owner kepts most of the money.  In USA and the rest of the world.   when thir is a service charge just do not eat there

[Jingthing]

harryfrompattaya, on 2012-02-09 18:13:14, said:

Jingthing, on 2012-02-06 00:17:10, said:

This thread is bringing out something I hadn't even thought of. Am I totally wrong to feel that when a service charge is added to the bill which you MUST pay, in Thailand or any country, the implied MEANING of that is that the money is for the staff as an extra income, similar to a tip? One poster seems to be saying I have been wrong. I am not convinced. Please discuss.

I respect you but I cannot believe that you did not known the owner kepts most of the money.  In USA and the rest of the world.   when thir is a service charge just do not eat there

Excuse me, but how are we supposed to know the specific policies of every restaurant we walk into? To me, if it says service charge and the money doesn't go to staff, they are lying to the customers and stealing from their staff.

[harryfrompattaya]

Jingthing, on 2012-02-09 18:17:38, said:

harryfrompattaya, on 2012-02-09 18:13:14, said:

Jingthing, on 2012-02-06 00:17:10, said:

This thread is bringing out something I hadn't even thought of. Am I totally wrong to feel that when a service charge is added to the bill which you MUST pay, in Thailand or any country, the implied MEANING of that is that the money is for the staff as an extra income, similar to a tip? One poster seems to be saying I have been wrong. I am not convinced. Please discuss.

I respect you but I cannot believe that you did not known the owner kepts most of the money.  In USA and the rest of the world.   when thir is a service charge just do not eat there

Excuse me, but how are we supposed to know the specific policies of every restaurant we walk into? To me, if it says service charge and the money doesn't go to staff, they are lying to the customers and stealing from their staff.

Ask if they charged if they say yes do not eat there.

If everyone did that no service charge

[Jingthing]

harryfrompattaya, on 2012-02-09 18:22:10, said:

Jingthing, on 2012-02-09 18:17:38, said:

harryfrompattaya, on 2012-02-09 18:13:14, said:

Jingthing, on 2012-02-06 00:17:10, said:

This thread is bringing out something I hadn't even thought of. Am I totally wrong to feel that when a service charge is added to the bill which you MUST pay, in Thailand or any country, the implied MEANING of that is that the money is for the staff as an extra income, similar to a tip? One poster seems to be saying I have been wrong. I am not convinced. Please discuss.

I respect you but I cannot believe that you did not known the owner kepts most of the money.  In USA and the rest of the world.   when thir is a service charge just do not eat there

Excuse me, but how are we supposed to know the specific policies of every restaurant we walk into? To me, if it says service charge and the money doesn't go to staff, they are lying to the customers and stealing from their staff.

Ask if they charged if they say yes do not eat there.

If everyone did that no service charge

A few of my favorite places are plus plus. I like food too much to boycott them because I don't love their business practices.

[Wallaby]

Ulysses G., on 2012-02-06 12:50:53, said:

personchester, on 2012-02-06 11:49:29, said:

The "service charge" is part of the restaurants general labour cost and therefore belongs rightly and correctly to the restaurant, and not to the staff, and it can not be regarded as tips.

IMO it is dishonest to charge customers a service charge to use for paying the staff's salary. Restaurants should use their profits for that like every other business. Most employees here are paid next to nothing anyway.

Agree, dishonest in the extreme.

Next thing they will be charging an extra 5% for electricity.

For Buddha's sake, put the cost of a meal in black and white, none of this service charge crap. It is a restaurant, do they think the food will cook itself and morph to the table?  Jeez some of those owners need a big kick up the ass.

Put the full price of everything on the menu.  If I want to leave a tip I will.  If I don't then I am going to be severely pissed off with actually having to pay a service charge if the service is crap.

Truth in pricing.

[cardholder]

harryfrompattaya, on 2012-02-09 18:13:14, said:

Jingthing, on 2012-02-06 00:17:10, said:

This thread is bringing out something I hadn't even thought of. Am I totally wrong to feel that when a service charge is added to the bill which you MUST pay, in Thailand or any country, the implied MEANING of that is that the money is for the staff as an extra income, similar to a tip? One poster seems to be saying I have been wrong. I am not convinced. Please discuss.

I respect you but I cannot believe that you did not known the owner kepts most of the money.  In USA and the rest of the world.   when thir is a service charge just do not eat there

You might just be denying yourself the meal of a lifetime for the sake of 10% on the bill (that you would have been happy to pay if wrapped in the price).

[Jayman]

Wallaby, on 2012-02-09 18:36:04, said:

Ulysses G., on 2012-02-06 12:50:53, said:

personchester, on 2012-02-06 11:49:29, said:

The "service charge" is part of the restaurants general labour cost and therefore belongs rightly and correctly to the restaurant, and not to the staff, and it can not be regarded as tips.

IMO it is dishonest to charge customers a service charge to use for paying the staff's salary. Restaurants should use their profits for that like every other business. Most employees here are paid next to nothing anyway.

Agree, dishonest in the extreme.

Next thing they will be charging an extra 5% for electricity.

For Buddha's sake, put the cost of a meal in black and white, none of this service charge crap. It is a restaurant, do they think the food will cook itself and morph to the table?  Jeez some of those owners need a big kick up the ass.

Put the full price of everything on the menu.  If I want to leave a tip I will.  If I don't then I am going to be severely pissed off with actually having to pay a service charge if the service is crap.

Truth in pricing.

I very much agree with this.  Just put the price of the cooked food brought to my table on the menu.  No need to hide the true price in charges that are added to the end.  I will look at the menu and decide what I want and can afford to eat on my budget.  If the cost of food there is too expensive for me, I will stop eating there until I can afford it.  

I am more than happy to tip the service staff for a job well done.  A tip is not to be expected for everything one does in the course of their job.  It's given as a bonus to reward good work and as an incentive to continue providing good service.  Kinda reminds me of an argument that took place at the beginning of "Reservoir Dogs".  "Why are some jobs deemed tip worthy and others not?"

The practice of advertising one price and then charging more on the menu due to fine print that is found seems quite deceiving.  I would love to hear some valid reasons for this practice that don't involve deceit.  The excuse that folks want a breakdown of their service charges is weak at best.  We all know that a flat rate doesn't cover every item that is made.  Just include the true prices on the menu and you will leave your customers with a much more positive feeling.

Will the ++ pricing stop me from enjoying food I enjoy? No it won't.  But it will leave me with a negative feeling about the business owners and I will be more likely to talk badly about the establishment to others instead of singing it's praises.  I would think that restaurants survive on word of mouth and repeat business and would want all the positive word of mouth they could get.  After all, it's free publicity.

Edited by Jayman, 2012-02-09 19:12:57.

[DP25]

harryfrompattaya, on 2012-02-09 18:13:14, said:

Jingthing, on 2012-02-06 00:17:10, said:

This thread is bringing out something I hadn't even thought of. Am I totally wrong to feel that when a service charge is added to the bill which you MUST pay, in Thailand or any country, the implied MEANING of that is that the money is for the staff as an extra income, similar to a tip? One poster seems to be saying I have been wrong. I am not convinced. Please discuss.

I respect you but I cannot believe that you did not known the owner kepts most of the money.  In USA and the rest of the world.   when thir is a service charge just do not eat there

In some states now it is illegal for a restaurant to keep the service charge.  In others they have to clearly label what percent of the service charge goes to the staff.  Hopefully ALL states will be like this soon.  A restaurant that does not give it all to the staff is taking advantage of their customers and their staff and should be avoided

[StreetCowboy]

I had generously assumed that the service charge was a way of passing some variable costs on to the staff, reducing the risk to the restaurant owner.
If the place is quiet, the staff don't get much; if its busy, they get more.  Similarly, from the staff's point of view, they are getting rewarded if they work hard.

I would like to be told on the menu what I was going to be charged prior to ordering, though, and also it would make it a lot easier divvying the cost of the meal up afterwards, when you're eating with English people.

SC

[IanForbes]

I can put up with just about anything... ONCE. As soon as I experience a restaurant that automatically adds a service charge that is the LAST time I ever dine there. And, I inform all my friends about it as well. I am a liberal tipper, but I don't and won't allow myself to be gouged.

However, I eat virtually 98% of my Thai meals in small, inexpensive street side cafes where I pay about 40 baht for a nourishing meal.

[Jayman]

I took the family to an un-named restaurant in Central tonight.  They have an all you can eat deal for a set price.  You are required to cook all the food at your table over an open flame.  The quality of the meet was very good.  Much better than any of the other all you can eat style asian cooking places.  No drinks are included in the all you can eat price (not even water).  Of course, my big complaint was that they add 10% service charge automatically on top of the 399 they charge per person.  Now considering almost everything about this place was written in Thai and not english I can see that this was clearly aimed at hi-so thai customers.  But when you cook all the food yourself it seems silly to pay a mandatory 10% service charge.  Was odd that they included the 7% VAT in the menu prices so you only got hit with a 10% charge at the end and not 17%.  Of course, considering this mandatory charge was over 100thb for us I didn't leave any tip on top of that.  I also did not feel badly about not leaving any more than was charged already.

Of course, I did enjoy the food and would probably go back there again but only bring the wife and not our 4 year old cause they charged him 50% of the full price and he ate next to nothing.

Edited by Jayman, 2012-02-11 23:35:01.

[MJo]

I have to say i find this quite funny. American's and their tipping customs

As long as the total cost is known who cares. I usually have other things in my mind than how the staff is getting along when out and about. So i leave it to the employer and employees to agree between themselves.

I leave the coins and/or 20 baht unless the service was really bad and more in case very good or big meal with more people etc. And yes, when in US or somewhere else where tipping is custom i do tip as the locals do.

How do you handle any visits to KL or Singapore, it's all ++ so your only options are noodle soup from seven ?

[Jayman]

The point is not so much about the price but about the practice of listing charges as a "service charge" and then not giving them in full to the service staff.

If there is no deception involved then just add 10 or 17% to all items on the menu and it's a done deal.  I have never been to KL or Singapore so I can't speak on why or why they don't just add all the costs to the menu items.  To me, it seems deceptive.

That all being said.. I do understand if taxes are kept separate for book keeping and collection purposes. But a service charge is not a tax that is being paid to a regulatory body.

Edited by Jayman, 2012-02-12 00:32:54.

[MJo]

For me it's not deceptive if it is mentioned in the menu as it usually is. Not like automatic tips.

Regardless, my point is the cultural differences here. Most people i know don't have any problems with this. It has never crossed their mind actually. It's just people who come from US or similar culture of automatic tipping and below minimum wage staff. And try to apply it to Thailand.

[StreetCowboy]

MJo, on 2012-02-12 01:01:35, said:

For me it's not deceptive if it is mentioned in the menu as it usually is. Not like automatic tips.

Regardless, my point is the cultural differences here. Most people i know don't have any problems with this. It has never crossed their mind actually. It's just people who come from US or similar culture of automatic tipping and below minimum wage staff. And try to apply it to Thailand.

I find it deceptive, and I feel it is deceitful as well.  I also find it inconvenient, as mentioned earlier, because it makes divvying up the bill difficult when eating with English people.  I would like to see a bottom-line figure quoted before I order.  I would like to have an option on anything that I was not originally quoted - whether that be baggage, insurance, service or tax.  If I am obliged to pay it, then it should be included in the price quoted.

SC

[MJo]

If it's not in the menu then yes, it's a scam. But i usually find it mentioned in the menu. So i know the total cost before ordering.

I also agree it is much more convenient to have it included in the price as that saves the calculations.

For eating with English i use tip calculator app in my mobile or if i don't bother just throw in plenty to cover myself, sit back and enjoy the show

[Ajaan]

I have long suspected that the hated 10% "service charge" (SO ridiculous, because 10% is NOT a standard tip calculation in Thailand in anyone's universe!!!) was a scam by employers to line their pockets and does not go to the employees...but you know what?  When I see that 10% service charge on my bill (and sometimes, you have to fuc_king use a magnifying glass to find it on your goddamn check!), I do NOT tip the staff above it.  Sucks, but service staff can always choose to not work at at shitbag restaurant that pulls such fuc_king shit on them, too...

Yet another example of "TIT," sadly...Thailand, the country that is so good at the haves blatantly fuc_king over the have-nots, sigh...

[IanForbes]

I think airlines are presently getting their knuckles wrapped for not disclosing all the charges over and above what they advertise. For example, someone will book a flight on-line using the advertised prices to compare costs with other airlines. Then, once they've booked with a credit card they receive a charge of 30 % more to cover all the other "extras". Trying to UN-BOOK the flight is a royal pain and takes forever to get your money back.

It is pretty much the same with the restaurants charging over and above what the menu says.

[Kaoboi Bebobp]

As others say, the service charge is deceitful. Dynasty Inn on soi 4 BKK puts 10% SC on the bill but not one baht goes to staff. I seem to remember a "pasta" shop under the Nana BTS station, north side, charges 15%, with nothing to staff. Bei Otto on soi 20 Sukhumvit charges 10% but every baht goes to staff. Many visiting westerners, especially first timers, interpret the SC as money going to staff. So I'm betting nearly every tourist district eatery that applies an SC directs that money right into the owner's pocket as opposed to defraying labour costs. He/she knows they can get away with it. And SC's are never highlighted, they're just another  barely readable line before the grand total. Just because the SC is on the menu doesn't excuse the deceitful nature of it. (Why do we need, as one poster said, to know we're being charged for labour. BS! Even worse practitioners of this SC business practice are the banks.   )

I can understand adding an SC for big groups, say 6 or more, which is done in Canada and the U.S. There's always one or two in the group who try to escape or under-report their part of the bill so I find the SC a better way to just get the darned bill paid. And it's fairer to the restaurant staff, who most definitely rely on tips to make any money.

[Jingthing]

MJo, on 2012-02-12 01:27:36, said:

If it's not in the menu then yes, it's a scam. But i usually find it mentioned in the menu. So i know the total cost before ordering.

I also agree it is much more convenient to have it included in the price as that saves the calculations.

For eating with English i use tip calculator app in my mobile or if i don't bother just throw in plenty to cover myself, sit back and enjoy the show

I think you may have misunderstood my issue. If it is on the bill, even if the customer didn't notice mention on the menu or whether it was on the menu or not, its a customers responsibility to read the bill. So going there, if it says 10 percent SERVICE CHARGE, and it turns out this money is not going to staff as a bonus to their salary, as in a tip, but rather a way to pour more money into the ownership funds, then that is the "scam" I am complaining about.

[DP25]

Wallaby, on 2012-02-12 11:57:02, said:

Don't you make more money out of a party of 4 eating than you do if 1 person eats?  Why add the 10%?

By adding the 10% it is obvious you don't want parties of 4 or more dining as they aren't worth the hassle of your staff attending to them.

Before you know it some restaurants will have an advertised price of 100 baht for a meal but at the end include a 100% service charge.  All false advertising.

As another poster stated....just tell me what  it costs on the menu to get a meal.  If you have to include a service charge then your prices are too low.

He says he gives it all to the staff as a tip.  It is a mandatory tip to make sure large groups do not forget to tip the waiter.   A large group is a lot of work and takes time away from other tables.  Large groups argue over the bill and want it split up and no one ends up tipping, this is to make sure the waiter doesn't get screwed.  As long as a service charge all goes to the staff as a tip I have no problem with it.