I wish the reds would see him for what he is. Used their deaths for his own self serving purposes and craps in their faces with the PM not even showing to give compensation. All about one man. So sad for the truly poor in Thailand.
You are assuming they do not? Are you really so condescending toward the “poor”?
Ask yourself why do the Red shirts support Taksin? Why do the Red shirts not support Democrats?
Why was Taksin (who himself is an elite) kicked out of the circle of Elites club by the military?
If Red shirts don’t support Taksin, then who will the Redshirts support? Who will push their cause and stand up against the elites? If no one, then they are back to supporting Taksin and his political group.
The problem with your whole post is that you assumed Thaksin was on there side. The reason they supported him was because he promised them they would all be rich in 6 months he was going to improve there schools and any thing else they wanted right away.
While the democrats made no such promises they set things in motion to bring about those desires (other than the be rich in 6 months) but they would take a lot of time not just happen today as Thaksin led them to believe. Also you forget that 40 of their supporters were Thaksin trained and not that up on social justice. This was a big problem the Dem's had to work with.
As I see it the red shirts who blindly followed Thaksin fell into two camps the big one being the uneducated one's and the other one's receiving cash for there part in it.
As it stands now yes who are they going to follow Thaksin has been back in power now for about 10 months and all they have seen is prices going up. Give Abhist the kind of support that they gave Thaksin and they will begin to see results they will be able to see them not rely on talk.
Yes indeed who are they to follow they won't believe in Abhist because of the indoctrination that Thaksin's hired mouth pieces and goons fed them and they are slowly seeing that in 10 months they are still no better off.
No. In Thailand politics when it's the little people fighting for democracy against military run governments, then the little people will always end up dead, such as in 1973, 76 & 92. But in this case those same people realized that elites themselves were fighting against each other. Thaksin was taking on the establishment for whatever reason he was kicked out. There was a belief that supporting Thaksin, could result in change and they wouldn't be any worse of under Thaksin than the alternative. Remember, the red shirt movement only began after the coup. He was also the person that brought in universal affordable health care). In past 75 years of "democracy" there was nothing. The Redshirts are not stupid and only wanted long needed change from military totalitarianism. They chose Thaksin as there was no real alternative. Thaksin needed them, so it was an easy match.
Your reference to "uneducated" people demonstrates only how you feel superior to others, and is the way the elite maintain an impression that they are some how better than the lower classes. The Democrats have never offered anything to the poor except more of the same. The same "know you place in this (feudal) society" rhetoric.
I wish the reds would see him for what he is. Used their deaths for his own self serving purposes and craps in their faces with the PM not even showing to give compensation. All about one man. So sad for the truly poor in Thailand.
You are assuming they do not? Are you really so condescending toward the “poor”?
Ask yourself why do the Red shirts support Taksin? Why do the Red shirts not support Democrats?
Why was Taksin (who himself is an elite) kicked out of the circle of Elites club by the military?
If Red shirts don’t support Taksin, then who will the Redshirts support? Who will push their cause and stand up against the elites? If no one, then they are back to supporting Taksin and his political group.
The problem with your whole post is that you assumed Thaksin was on there side. The reason they supported him was because he promised them they would all be rich in 6 months he was going to improve there schools and any thing else they wanted right away.
While the democrats made no such promises they set things in motion to bring about those desires (other than the be rich in 6 months) but they would take a lot of time not just happen today as Thaksin led them to believe. Also you forget that 40 of their supporters were Thaksin trained and not that up on social justice. This was a big problem the Dem's had to work with.
As I see it the red shirts who blindly followed Thaksin fell into two camps the big one being the uneducated one's and the other one's receiving cash for there part in it.
As it stands now yes who are they going to follow Thaksin has been back in power now for about 10 months and all they have seen is prices going up. Give Abhist the kind of support that they gave Thaksin and they will begin to see results they will be able to see them not rely on talk.
Yes indeed who are they to follow they won't believe in Abhist because of the indoctrination that Thaksin's hired mouth pieces and goons fed them and they are slowly seeing that in 10 months they are still no better off.
No. In Thailand politics when it's the little people fighting for democracy against military run governments, then the little people will always end up dead, such as in 1973, 76 & 92. But in this case those same people realized that elites themselves were fighting against each other. Thaksin was taking on the establishment for whatever reason he was kicked out. There was a belief that supporting Thaksin, could result in change and they wouldn't be any worse of under Thaksin than the alternative. Remember, the red shirt movement only began after the coup. He was also the person that brought in universal affordable health care). In past 75 years of "democracy" there was nothing. The Redshirts are not stupid and only wanted long needed change from military totalitarianism. They chose Thaksin as there was no real alternative. Thaksin needed them, so it was an easy match.
Your reference to "uneducated" people demonstrates only how you feel superior to others, and is the way the elite maintain an impression that they are some how better than the lower classes. The Democrats have never offered anything to the poor except more of the same. The same "know you place in this (feudal) society" rhetoric.
What you say about Thaksin was true 12 years ago. I was talking about today. I notice you skip over the part about the resistance Abhist had to put up within his coalition. Also the terrorism he had to combat. If you think he was wrong just look at how Syria is doing it. He did it in as humane away as the red shirts would let him.
Thaksin In his time he did do some good things but he was in a time of world economics success. And he had the power behind him. If he had used all that power for the betterment of Thailand instead of lining his pockets. He would not have been thrown out. He had very little resistance his undoing is the same that he has now and will not allow him to ever return. EGO actually I think he might fear a bullet is here with his name on it.
What has he done for Thailand lately over 90 dead as a result of his ego. 10 months back in power and the poor red shirts have not one thing to show for it other than the money they got for the Bangkok insurrection and the money they got for voting for him.
Get into 2012 The red shirts have no body to lead them. As I said the Dem's are not a possibility because of the crap they were fed. You criticize me for calling them uneducated what do you think the leaders were calling them when they had to set up a school to teach them what democracy is. Or do you think as I do brainwash them into believing the only true democracy was doing it there way.
Yes the red shirts only happened after the coup but they were all ready in the wings. just waiting for the other two Thaksin led governments to fall on their face. Where they could then try to bring their leader back with illegal means. Or are you saying invasion of hospitals is legal? That is a yes or no question.
Interesting how you equate uneducated with a lower class. As far as I am concerned they just know less than me because I had 12 and a half years of real schooling where if you failed you did not move on to the next grade. It is just a fact not a measurement of class. They were completely happy with the parliamentary system until it didn't work for them. Then all of a sudden they have to have democracy instead. Why did they not change over to democracy when they had the power why wait until they no longer have the power?
A guilty person who is wasting this much money, time, and human lives, just to clear his own tarnished name, is an arrogant and unrepentant wastrel. A guilty person who commits these actions at state-level in a poor developing-world nation that is socially and economically fragile at this time, is an uncaring despot.
He could have walked away with his stolen money & lived out his days in the type of luxury that most people can not even dream of, yet he hovers vulture-like over this nation, fermenting divisions, unbalancing people's lives, and uprooting the first green shoots of a fledgling democracy.
Yunla; I believe you've managed to put the entire issue in "a nut-shell" in a very eloquent & brilliant manner !
If there would have been a "Rudyard Kipling Award", I am convinced you would have won it ! !
I wish the reds would see him for what he is. Used their deaths for his own self serving purposes and craps in their faces with the PM not even showing to give compensation. All about one man. So sad for the truly poor in Thailand.
You are assuming they do not? Are you really so condescending toward the “poor”?
Ask yourself why do the Red shirts support Taksin? Why do the Red shirts not support Democrats?
Why was Taksin (who himself is an elite) kicked out of the circle of Elites club by the military?
If Red shirts don’t support Taksin, then who will the Redshirts support? Who will push their cause and stand up against the elites? If no one, then they are back to supporting Taksin and his political group.
The problem with your whole post is that you assumed Thaksin was on there side. The reason they supported him was because he promised them they would all be rich in 6 months he was going to improve there schools and any thing else they wanted right away.
While the democrats made no such promises they set things in motion to bring about those desires (other than the be rich in 6 months) but they would take a lot of time not just happen today as Thaksin led them to believe. Also you forget that 40 of their supporters were Thaksin trained and not that up on social justice. This was a big problem the Dem's had to work with.
As I see it the red shirts who blindly followed Thaksin fell into two camps the big one being the uneducated one's and the other one's receiving cash for there part in it.
As it stands now yes who are they going to follow Thaksin has been back in power now for about 10 months and all they have seen is prices going up. Give Abhist the kind of support that they gave Thaksin and they will begin to see results they will be able to see them not rely on talk.
Yes indeed who are they to follow they won't believe in Abhist because of the indoctrination that Thaksin's hired mouth pieces and goons fed them and they are slowly seeing that in 10 months they are still no better off.
No. In Thailand politics when it's the little people fighting for democracy against military run governments, then the little people will always end up dead, such as in 1973, 76 & 92. But in this case those same people realized that elites themselves were fighting against each other. Thaksin was taking on the establishment for whatever reason he was kicked out. There was a belief that supporting Thaksin, could result in change and they wouldn't be any worse of under Thaksin than the alternative. Remember, the red shirt movement only began after the coup. He was also the person that brought in universal affordable health care). In past 75 years of "democracy" there was nothing. The Redshirts are not stupid and only wanted long needed change from military totalitarianism. They chose Thaksin as there was no real alternative. Thaksin needed them, so it was an easy match.
Your reference to "uneducated" people demonstrates only how you feel superior to others, and is the way the elite maintain an impression that they are some how better than the lower classes. The Democrats have never offered anything to the poor except more of the same. The same "know you place in this (feudal) society" rhetoric.
Saying people are uneducated doesn't mean you think you're superior it just means they're uneducated. It may mean they just can't be bothered but equally it could be they haven't been given the education. I'm educated but not necessarily superior, just lucky.
Many of those deaths may not be crimes, and not need amnesty. In most cases, there has been no responsibility decided, at least by the authorities. I repeat part of a post from another thread:
"It should be asked what is the function of small groups of armed blackshirts. IMHO opinion they were there to "keep the pot boiling". It would be a simple job to shadow a group of RTA either patrolling or static, and pop off a couple of shots as a group of red shirts came close. In an urban environment with lots of hard reflecting surfaces it is difficult to tell the source of the shots, so the soldiers would engage the reds. Up to you whether you believe the RTA might even get little assistance if their accuracy was lacking."
it is interesting that you choose a list which seems to excluded members of the security forces. Under the proposed legislation, their murder will become "legitimate political expression".
You're right, I was misled by the May 10th 2010 cut off date you posted. The list should of course include 5 other soldiers and 21 civilians killed on the 10th April
At least you are consistent - when the questions get too hard ignore them.
What was the question? You were just regurgitating a post I'd already disregarded as fantasy in another thread. There is no question there.
What was the function of the black shirts? Clear enough?
A guilty person who is wasting this much money, time, and human lives, just to clear his own tarnished name, is an arrogant and unrepentant wastrel. A guilty person who commits these actions at state-level in a poor developing-world nation that is socially and economically fragile at this time, is an uncaring despot.
He could have walked away with his stolen money & lived out his days in the type of luxury that most people can not even dream of, yet he hovers vulture-like over this nation, fermenting divisions, unbalancing people's lives, and uprooting the first green shoots of a fledgling democracy.
Yunla; I believe you've managed to put the entire issue in "a nut-shell" in a very eloquent & brilliant manner !
If there would have been a "Rudyard Kipling Award", I am convinced you would have won it ! !
Admirer
The Kipling that was propagandaist for brazenfaced impreialism and its attendant racial attitudes? The Kipling that wrote,"The white mans burden?"
Take up the White Man's burden—
Send forth the best ye breed—
Go, bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait, in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild—
Your new-caught sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.
—The White Man's Burden
What was the function of the black shirts? Clear enough?
If / when one is brought to justice and the relationship/s between them and the red shirts / security forces are examined we might find out. Until then I haven't a clue and despite what you think, nor do you. It's who they were working for that is the crux of the matter.
What was the function of the black shirts? Clear enough?
If / when one is brought to justice and the relationship/s between them and the red shirts / security forces are examined we might find out. Until then I haven't a clue and despite what you think, nor do you. It's who they were working for that is the crux of the matter.
I think he is talking about the ones who ate with and slept with red shirts behind barricades that had been built so honest citizens couldn't get in to do there work and earn a living also to protect them from a invasion by the patients in a hospital. In other words do all the things the red shirts did only dress differently. We all know who they were working for both red and black shirts. That is no secret.
You don't really think they will be brought to justice do you? As far as the present government is concerned they are all innocent. And they are in the process of rewriting a constitution that says so.
What was the function of the black shirts? Clear enough?
If / when one is brought to justice and the relationship/s between them and the red shirts / security forces are examined we might find out. Until then I haven't a clue and despite what you think, nor do you. It's who they were working for that is the crux of the matter.
Good, let's bring as many to justice as possible. Now who doesn't want that? The man who paid them.
If he DOESN'T organise an amnesty, and Arisman and Jatuporn start facing a death sentence, they might decide to plead guilty with a full confession. If the blame for 92+ deaths gets laid where it belongs, Thaksin won't be safe anywhere in the world.
What was the function of the black shirts? Clear enough?
If / when one is brought to justice and the relationship/s between them and the red shirts / security forces are examined we might find out. Until then I haven't a clue and despite what you think, nor do you. It's who they were working for that is the crux of the matter.
Yunla; I believe you've managed to put the entire issue in "a nut-shell" in a very eloquent & brilliant manner !
If there would have been a "Rudyard Kipling Award", I am convinced you would have won it ! !
Admirer
Thanks for the compliment, I don't really see any literary connection between me & any writers of the past. I'm not an eloquent writer, and for another fact I know about a hundred times less facts & figures about Thailand than most TV forumers do.
I just read the Thai news headlines here in the morning, read the responses & post something if I feel compelled to, then go back to my work elsewhere. Most of the time when I'm reading about Thaksin & this current pseudo-government. I feel only a deep sense of sorrow & a sort of numb horror. I've been visiting Thailand since 1976, I own property here & have many Thai friends who I love dearly & consider to be my only remaining family. They are working-class Bangkok people & it breaks my heart truly to see them being scammed constantly by this and earlier regimes. I see this voiding-law & return of Thaksin as a bleak and desperate chapter in this nations history.
I was told once that every person / nation has to hit absolute rock bottom before they bounce back and start working every day to succeed & to only move forward positively. The example I was given was drug addicts, who will never break the habit until they seriously O.D. and wake up in hospital after coma, and swear "never again" & genuinely mean it. They have to reach that complete breakdown-state before they change. This applies to countries too. I felt Thailand had hit rock bottom many times in the past, most recently in 2010 with the red-mob, and a rich fugitive setting up poor farmers as sacrificial pawns in a hideous chess game. In late 09 I actually felt that even though Thailand needed a lot of work to clean up the system, it was starting to head in the right direction very slowly. In 2010 during the "burn Bangkok to the ground" redmob speeches, the blood tipping onto the gates etc. I knew that the "rock bottom" years were still ahead. Thailand has not hit rock bottom yet, and so it has not had the system-shock that will make it wake up & walk into the 21st century clear-headedly as a law-abiding & well-regulated meritocracy. I think that maybe the next decade will be the crashing-to-the-floor stage, followed by the bouncing-back. Its impossible to tell when and how because so many people at the higher echelons are playing the game by their own rules, its impossible to know the outcome until it happens IMO. But anyone can see that overturning the Supreme Court's guilty verdict on Thaksin just because he considers himself above the law, is a completely different system to democracy, it is a regression to criminal oligarchy and might-is-right.
What was the function of the black shirts? Clear enough?
If / when one is brought to justice and the relationship/s between them and the red shirts / security forces are examined we might find out. Until then I haven't a clue and despite what you think, nor do you. It's who they were working for that is the crux of the matter.
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hellodolly, on Yesterday, 23:00 , said:
