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[bigbamboo]

Arkady, on Today, 13:08 , said:

"Abhisit sees 'whitewash' move behind reconciliation billl"

A master of understatement.

Well spotted, Mr Wishywashy.

But shouldn't that be 'reconciliation bin'?.... much more appropriate considering it's rubbish.

Edited by bigbamboo, Today, 15:01 .

[jayboy]

rixalex, on Today, 14:43 , said:

jayboy, on Today, 14:02 , said:

As to foreign views most were sympathethic to the redshirt cause.If you can name a few reputable sources who took a different view let's hear about them.

It's not a question of who can find the most links to Western media articles that either were sympathetic to the red shirts or weren't, it's a case of whether based on a selection of Western media articles we can surmise the feeling of the ENTIRE CIVILISED WORLD... which was precisely what you did without batting an eyelid.

Well you appear not to be able to find any!

[OzMick]

jayboy, on Today, 14:51 , said:

rixalex, on Today, 14:35 , said:

jayboy, on Today, 14:02 , said:

If your thesis is correct it's odd that the Thai people elected a party with strong affiliations to the redshirt movement to a comfortable victory.

It's only odd if you consider that the general election was some sort of a judgement on what Thai people thought of the red shirts and the actions of the red shirts. I don't believe it was. I believe it was a judgement based on which government they thought might do most for them, and when you consider what election promises PTP made, compared with what election promises the Dems made, the result was so great surprise.

I'm not saying redshirt support was the only reason for the PTP victory but to deny its major contributory significance seems wilfully obtuse.

As is saying that 92+ deaths blamed on Abhisit didn't affect his election chances.

[jayboy]

OzMick, on Today, 14:59 , said:

jayboy, on Today, 14:51 , said:

rixalex, on Today, 14:35 , said:

jayboy, on Today, 14:02 , said:

If your thesis is correct it's odd that the Thai people elected a party with strong affiliations to the redshirt movement to a comfortable victory.

It's only odd if you consider that the general election was some sort of a judgement on what Thai people thought of the red shirts and the actions of the red shirts. I don't believe it was. I believe it was a judgement based on which government they thought might do most for them, and when you consider what election promises PTP made, compared with what election promises the Dems made, the result was so great surprise.

I'm not saying redshirt support was the only reason for the PTP victory but to deny its major contributory significance seems wilfully obtuse.

As is saying that 92+ deaths blamed on Abhisit didn't affect his election chances.

I agree.To preside over the military's killing of innocent civilians does not improve any politician's election prospects.

[MILT]

jayboy, on Today, 13:17 , said:

OzMick, on Today, 09:46 , said:

whybother, on Today, 09:35 , said:

OzMick, on Today, 09:31 , said:

"And the amnesty law must distinguish between protest leaders and regular people...."

Well there goes another basic priciple of democracy.

There is but one law for all, namely that law which governs all law, the law of our Creator, the law of humanity, justice, equity -- the law of nature and of nations.  Edmund Burke

I think he's referring to "regular people who just happened to be there" and "protest leaders who organised and incited the regular people".

The followers should be given amnesty, and the organisers / inciters shouldn't.

A law can be applied proportionally to degree of responsibility and participation, but should be applied to all. Even if it was merely a reprimand for civil disobedience, the message that this was NOT the right thing to do has to be proclaimed.

But in the view of millions of Thais the redshirt protest was the right thing, a entirely justifiable stand against anti democratic forces - in the tradition of 1973,1976 and 1992.This was also the view shared around the civilised world.So please do not assume that your distorted morality is taken as the norm.

Paleeees In the view of other millions of Thais the coup was the right thing to do to stop Thaskin in his tracts. Nothing more! Thaskin didn't like getting spanked and has refused to trust the legal system Why? Because they can't be bought like votes seemingly can or promised things that don't amount to squat. The view shared around the civilized world? (What world are you talking about?) From the news media? That's a laugh.

[MILT]

jayboy, on Today, 13:17 , said:

OzMick, on Today, 09:46 , said:

whybother, on Today, 09:35 , said:

OzMick, on Today, 09:31 , said:

"And the amnesty law must distinguish between protest leaders and regular people...."

Well there goes another basic priciple of democracy.

There is but one law for all, namely that law which governs all law, the law of our Creator, the law of humanity, justice, equity -- the law of nature and of nations.  Edmund Burke

I think he's referring to "regular people who just happened to be there" and "protest leaders who organised and incited the regular people".

The followers should be given amnesty, and the organisers / inciters shouldn't.

A law can be applied proportionally to degree of responsibility and participation, but should be applied to all. Even if it was merely a reprimand for civil disobedience, the message that this was NOT the right thing to do has to be proclaimed.

But in the view of millions of Thais the redshirt protest was the right thing, a entirely justifiable stand against anti democratic forces - in the tradition of 1973,1976 and 1992.This was also the view shared around the civilised world.So please do not assume that your distorted morality is taken as the norm.

Paleeees In the view of other millions of Thais the coup was the right thing to do to stop Thaskin in his tracts. Nothing more! Thaskin didn't like getting spanked and has refused to trust the legal system Why? Because they can't be bought like votes seemingly can or promised things that don't amount to squat. The view shared around the civilized world? (What world are you talking about?) From the news media? That's a laugh.

[anterian]

When I read the comments from both sides of this debate I am reminded of the great divide in perception between Darwin and Bishop Usher. A controversy which led to the famous debate between Wilberforce and Huxley http://spiritualmean...el-wilberforce/
This debate continues to this day so I guess the "Great Thaivisa debate" will continue indefinitely. The question is, are Ozmick and friends Darwinites or Usherites

[rixalex]

jayboy, on Today, 14:51 , said:

I'm not saying redshirt support was the only reason for the PTP victory but to deny its major contributory significance seems wilfully obtuse.

The only people who must accept it as being a major contributory factor are those desperate to legitimise in some way the antidemocratic violence and destruction that went on.

[473geo]

Abhisit has a point, closer more in depth scrutiny is required........

However his reasons are badly presented due to the democrats fixation with Thaksin.....what he should be highlighting to make his case.......

The previous 'whitewash' and implementation of immunity laws.........did not bring about reconciliation.....in fact far from it!!!

[Moruya]

ralphlsasser, on Today, 14:53 , said:

This looser is still trying to be a player. Something he never was.

A player in what game?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Thaivisa Connect App

[jayboy]

rixalex, on Today, 15:20 , said:

jayboy, on Today, 14:51 , said:

I'm not saying redshirt support was the only reason for the PTP victory but to deny its major contributory significance seems wilfully obtuse.

The only people who must accept it as being a major contributory factor are those desperate to legitimise in some way the antidemocratic violence and destruction that went on.

Desperate to legitimise ? Oh dear you've gone over the top now.

[jayboy]

anterian, on Today, 15:14 , said:

When I read the comments from both sides of this debate I am reminded of the great divide in perception between Darwin and Bishop Usher. A controversy which led to the famous debate between Wilberforce and Huxley http://spiritualmean...el-wilberforce/
This debate continues to this day so I guess the "Great Thaivisa debate" will continue indefinitely. The question is, are Ozmick and friends Darwinites or Usherites

One major difference was that all three men were articulate, well educated and perptive though Usher very much a figure of his time.Wilberforce was a worthy foe for Darwin, really using the same intellectual tools as his opponent and a less dated figure then of course than he seems now.In that debate and the current debate in Thailand one is also reminded of the famous Bismarck quotation about genius beingthe ability to hear the distant hooves of the horse of history and grasping its stirrups as it gallops by.Sadly on this forum the diehards rather obviously lack the basic building blocks that Wilberforce, Darwin and Usher all possessed.

[rixalex]

jayboy, on Today, 14:59 , said:

rixalex, on Today, 14:43 , said:

jayboy, on Today, 14:02 , said:

As to foreign views most were sympathethic to the redshirt cause.If you can name a few reputable sources who took a different view let's hear about them.

It's not a question of who can find the most links to Western media articles that either were sympathetic to the red shirts or weren't, it's a case of whether based on a selection of Western media articles we can surmise the feeling of the ENTIRE CIVILISED WORLD... which was precisely what you did without batting an eyelid.

Well you appear not to be able to find any!

I am not contesting whether there are any or whether there aren't. I am contesting whether a number of articles, whatever opinion they may universally express, speaks for the entire civilised world, as is your claim.

[jayboy]

rixalex, on Today, 16:24 , said:

jayboy, on Today, 14:59 , said:

rixalex, on Today, 14:43 , said:

jayboy, on Today, 14:02 , said:

As to foreign views most were sympathethic to the redshirt cause.If you can name a few reputable sources who took a different view let's hear about them.

It's not a question of who can find the most links to Western media articles that either were sympathetic to the red shirts or weren't, it's a case of whether based on a selection of Western media articles we can surmise the feeling of the ENTIRE CIVILISED WORLD... which was precisely what you did without batting an eyelid.

Well you appear not to be able to find any!

I am not contesting whether there are any or whether there aren't. I am contesting whether a number of articles, whatever opinion they may universally express, speaks for the entire civilised world, as is your claim.

You are not contesting the proposition because you cannot find any respected media source which support your views.If there were any you would be trumpeting them.

As to the views of the civilised world that is a subjective concept.The views of the world's most respected broadcasters,media outlets and commentators is a way of assessing it.No doubt there other ways as well.

[rixalex]

jayboy, on Today, 16:31 , said:

You are not contesting the proposition because you cannot find any respected media source which support your views.If there were any you would be trumpeting them.

I'm not contesting it because i haven't spent hours searching. If you have, I am happy to accept your findings in that regard. Trumpet away.

[waza]

More PTP corrupt practices

[jayboy]

rixalex, on Today, 16:47 , said:

jayboy, on Today, 16:31 , said:

You are not contesting the proposition because you cannot find any respected media source which support your views.If there were any you would be trumpeting them.

I'm not contesting it because i haven't spent hours searching. If you have, I am happy to accept your findings in that regard. Trumpet away.

Unbelievable.Why post at all on Thai politics if you haven't bothered to read about local and international perception.You could admit defeat gracefully but I would be surprised.

[waza]

jayboy, on 50 minutes ago, said:

rixalex, on Today, 16:47 , said:

jayboy, on Today, 16:31 , said:

You are not contesting the proposition because you cannot find any respected media source which support your views.If there were any you would be trumpeting them.

I'm not contesting it because i haven't spent hours searching. If you have, I am happy to accept your findings in that regard. Trumpet away.

Unbelievable.Why post at all on Thai politics if you haven't bothered to read about local and international perception.You could admit defeat gracefully but I would be surprised.

Its obvious why most western media paint the red shirts in a positive light, its because Thaksin, the convicted criminal and fugitive from justice has paid mega buck  for paid for comments spin doctor, Robet Amsterdam, to ensure that they do.  It doesnt reflect the reality of the situation as know by those that were there but the perception sold to the media by RA.  Its also obvious that you bought the lie hook line and sinker.

Edited by waza, 30 minutes ago.

[rixalex]

jayboy, on 50 minutes ago, said:

Unbelievable.Why post at all on Thai politics if you haven't bothered to read about local and international perception.You could admit defeat gracefully but I would be surprised.

This is getting silly. Just because i'm not scouring through all the archives right this minute to find what you demand i do, doesn't mean i haven't ever bothered reading anything on Thai politics.

As for admitting defeat, precisely what am i supposed to be defeated about? I haven't made any claims whatsoever in any of this, besides to contest how you manage to have summarised the thoughts of the entire civilised world.

[jayboy]

waza, on 30 minutes ago, said:

jayboy, on 50 minutes ago, said:

rixalex, on Today, 16:47 , said:

jayboy, on Today, 16:31 , said:

You are not contesting the proposition because you cannot find any respected media source which support your views.If there were any you would be trumpeting them.

I'm not contesting it because i haven't spent hours searching. If you have, I am happy to accept your findings in that regard. Trumpet away.

Unbelievable.Why post at all on Thai politics if you haven't bothered to read about local and international perception.You could admit defeat gracefully but I would be surprised.

Its obvious why most western media paint the red shirts in a positive light, its because Thaksin, the convicted criminal and fugitive from justice has paid mega buck  for paid for comments spin doctor, Robet Amsterdam, to ensure that they do.  It doesnt reflect the reality of the situation as know by those that were there but the perception sold to the media by RA.  Its also obvious that you bought the lie hook line and sinker.

Sorry I should have realised the entire Western Media, along with Thai studies specialists,intellectuals and academics were bamboozled by Robert Amsterdam on behalf of his paymaster.

However could I have thought otherwise?

[jayboy]

rixalex, on 20 minutes ago, said:

jayboy, on 50 minutes ago, said:

Unbelievable.Why post at all on Thai politics if you haven't bothered to read about local and international perception.You could admit defeat gracefully but I would be surprised.

This is getting silly. Just because i'm not scouring through all the archives right this minute to find what you demand i do, doesn't mean i haven't ever bothered reading anything on Thai politics.

As for admitting defeat, precisely what am i supposed to be defeated about? I haven't made any claims whatsoever in any of this, besides to contest how you manage to have summarised the thoughts of the entire civilised world.

It's an old piece of advice but when on a hole best stop digging.I have already said civilised opinion is a subjective concept but that wise and experienced commentators provide an important insight.

I'm not asking you to do anything now.If you have paid any attention over the last few years to the debate on Thailand you would be able to recall key elements.

[rixalex]

jayboy, on 5 minutes ago, said:

rixalex, on 20 minutes ago, said:

jayboy, on 50 minutes ago, said:

Unbelievable.Why post at all on Thai politics if you haven't bothered to read about local and international perception.You could admit defeat gracefully but I would be surprised.

This is getting silly. Just because i'm not scouring through all the archives right this minute to find what you demand i do, doesn't mean i haven't ever bothered reading anything on Thai politics.

As for admitting defeat, precisely what am i supposed to be defeated about? I haven't made any claims whatsoever in any of this, besides to contest how you manage to have summarised the thoughts of the entire civilised world.

It's an old piece of advice but when on a hole best stop digging.I have already said civilised opinion is a subjective concept but that wise and experienced commentators provide an important insight.

I'm not asking you to do anything now.If you have paid any attention over the last few years to the debate on Thailand you would be able to recall key elements.

1) The only hole that was being dug was yours with regards the daft claim you made about the entire civilised world's thoughts.

2) You were asking me to admit defeat. To repeat, since i made no claim, what am i to admit defeat about?