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[kkk33]

What about non-native English speakers, assuming their English is reasonably well, how easy/difficult would it be to do a Tefl course ?
And what are their chances on the job market ?

[griser]

kkk33, on 2006-02-14 12:11:09, said:

What about non-native English speakers, assuming their English is reasonably well, how easy/difficult would it be to do a Tefl course ?
And what are their chances on the job market ?

The tefl is easy for a non speaker, you probably know more grammer than the average Native speaker.

Getting a job isnt too bad for a Non native speaker, it just takes more time.

Greg

[bonsaimax]

Quote

The tefl is easy for a non speaker, you probably know more grammer than the average Native speaker.

Native speakers probably need it more.

[kkk33]

bonsaimax, on 2006-02-14 19:26:39, said:

Quote

The tefl is easy for a non speaker, you probably know more grammer than the average Native speaker.

Native speakers probably need it more.

So what's the reason that almost all schools emphasize they only want native English speakers ?

[ajarnmark]

kkk33, on 2006-02-15 08:56:54, said:

bonsaimax, on 2006-02-14 19:26:39, said:

Quote

The tefl is easy for a non speaker, you probably know more grammer than the average Native speaker.

Native speakers probably need it more.

So what's the reason that almost all schools emphasize they only want native English speakers ?

I dont know which country u r from, anyway, it is very difficult to get a teaching job in Thailand. Most of Thais are very racist and they r reluctant to give the job to any person other than native speakers. The reason they give is that the parents want the native speakers.

I believe in one thing that we should value people according to their characters and not colors and we should select socks by color. However, in LOS its the other way round. I completely agree with the reply that most native speakers are not really aware of the grammar. Besides they speak in their own pace and accent which makes it difficult for thai students to understand, but they r more than happy to study with a farang.

I hold 4 masters level degrees in accounting, finance, economics and law, and working on my phd, but still a farang (possibly a high school dropout) would be given preference on me. Amazing Thailand.  

I dont care about it too much now, coz I am leaving soon.

[Simmo]

kkk33, on 2006-02-15 08:56:54, said:

[

So what's the reason that almost all schools emphasize they only want native English speakers ?

Because that's what the parents want and they're the customer.

[kenkannif]

[quote name='bonsaimax' post='644563' date='2006-02-14 12:26:39'][quote]The tefl is easy for a non speaker, you probably know more grammer than the average Native speaker.[/quote]

Native speakers probably need it more.
[/quote]

What utter nonsense



[quote name='ajarnmark' post='645363' date='2006-02-15 02:18:25'][quote name='kkk33' post='645345' date='2006-02-15 08:56:54']
[quote name='bonsaimax' post='644563' date='2006-02-14 19:26:39']
[quote]The tefl is easy for a non speaker, you probably know more grammer than the average Native speaker.[/quote]

Native speakers probably need it more.
[/quote]

So what's the reason that almost all schools emphasize they only want native English speakers ?
[/quote]

I dont know which country u r from, anyway, it is very difficult to get a teaching job in Thailand.[/quote]

No it's not. It'a harder for those of colour though if that's what you meant?

[quote]Most of Thais are very racist and they r reluctant to give the job to any person other than native speakers.[/quote]

Again completely wrong. Not racist per se, rather ignorant (if you're black you're from Africa and thus aren't a 'native' speaker (which basically means you're white)). I know tons of Swedes, Danes et al teaching here with no worries whatsoever.

[quote]The reason they give is that the parents want the native speakers.[/quote]

Again this applies to skin colour more than nationality I'm afraid.

[Ijustwannateach]

This is one of those "flog a dead horse" arguments... pretty sure if you dig through the threads we've been through this before, exhaustively.

My opinion once again:

For the younger non-international students and for very basic conversation in the country high schools, it probably doesn't make any difference functionally if you have a Filipino, an Indian, a native speaker without a degree, or William Shakespeare himself.  You're teaching very low level skills to kids who won't know if your accent is a bit off or you make a few mistakes in grammar or spelling.  Parents do care about the white face (as mentioned above), even to the point of preferring a white non-native speaker (like a Dutchman or German) to an Asian native speaker.

For the younger international students and older students who are fairly proficient, there are some limitations and liabilities of using a non-native speaker, both in terms of grammar and accent [yes, yes, there are *some*- few, very few, and no one that I've seen come out as a non-native speaker on any of these forums- non-native speakers who can speak and write completely fluent English- if so, what the heck are you doing in TEFL???].  It makes academic sense in these cases to hire a native speaker.

For English as a subject (not TEFL or conversational)- of course native speakers only, and well-qualified ones, to boot.

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

^ I know a few non-native speakers that speak better English than me (but then as you know with my 'grasp' of the English that ain't hard at all   ).


When I went for my TL I went with a Swedish chap....he had to explain WHY he could speak such good English.


Also mate this:

Quote

non-native speakers who can speak and write completely fluent English- if so, what the heck are you doing in TEFL???

Can apply to all of us

[Ijustwannateach]

Yeah, I know, I know, everyone can mention at least one exception- for example, I knew this Dutch girl in Japan who had a nearly perfect American accent.

BUT- in general what I said was true.  The exceptions only prove the rule.

And as to why native speakers are in TEFL?  Well, it's certainly not for the chance to make better wages than their home country....  the only thing is they don't have to have an extra skill.  The difference with the non-native speakers is that they've gone to all the effort to get an extra skill...

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

Mate we've got a couple of Danish teachers working for us, couple of Swedish, couple French and I think the odd German/Dutch one as well and other than the (everso slight) accent (which shouldn't matter) they speak perfect English....and that's just at one small school in Bangers Hardly exceptions


Mate while speaking two languages is 'handy' it doesn't really translate into a 'skill' here (generally) unless it's Thai or possibly a Chinese/Japanese language.....or do you have a different experience with bilingual peeps???

Edited by kenkannif, 2006-02-15 15:58:00.

[Spit the Dog]

A blonde, blue-eyed Scandanavian will have much more success finding an English teaching job in Thailand than a dark-skinned Indian wearing a turban.
It doesn't sound very fair but that the way it is in Thailand.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Ken, I was referring to the second language being the skill for the non-native speaker teaching TEFL as opposed to the native speaker, for whom it's not an extra "skill."  One would think if their 2nd language were so perfect they could use it in some more lucrative business (translation from their native language to English, etc.)

And I freely admit that the European non-native speakers are far more likely to be exceptions than those of certain other nationalities...

[bonsaimax]

Quote

So what's the reason that almost all schools emphasize they only want native English speakers ?

IGNORANCE

[PeaceBlondie]

I don't think that the wholesale, intentional teaching of solid blocks of boring grammar is very important to teaching lower level students,since they usually already have Thai ajarns who are grammar freaks. Grammar is not wanted by students in any country I know.  

However, you can't teach EFL without running straight into grammar; it's part of the subject matter.  You have to know the basic terms (verb, noun, personal pronoun, sentence, command, etc.), and you have to know how and when to teach it.

Modern Americans and Brits apparently have not been taught much English grammar through secondary school, so they have to learn it in the process of taking the TEFL course.

Non-native speakers who have mastered English as a second language have probably learned English grammar along the way.

[Buki]

I would say ignorance and the misconception of who should and shouldn't teach EFL.    

The students that studied in the Language academies that I have worked before brought a misconception that native speakers can be the ONLY teachers that CAN teach them English.  Well, that misconception was cured when they realize that their native teachers didn't have enough skill to teach or spell even or explain complex grammatical theories.  And this was 90% true to all language schools in my country.  I know I would be burned with this statement, but this is a sad fact.  I get a lot of complains from students about their native speaking teachers and I have sat in their classes and listened to them talked nonsense and scribbled mispelled words on the board.

Though the argument is that they don't need to teach grammar or over emphasized on it, but the truth of the matter is, it is still in important and it still should be taught.  Yeah sure, teach them about pronunciation and conversation, but there are still rules to follow with enunciation of words and all that blah.  

"For the younger international students and older students who are fairly proficient, there are some limitations and liabilities of using a non-native speaker, both in terms of grammar and accent [yes, yes, there are *some*- few, very few, and no one that I've seen come out as a non-native speaker on any of these forums- non-native speakers who can speak and write completely fluent English- if so, what the heck are you doing in TEFL???]. It makes academic sense in these cases to hire a native speaker"  -----> What????  No one has the monopoly to teaching dear, it doesn't mean that your mouth spurts out English on a daily basis, you already have the license to teach it exclusively.

I am pretty sure that a white guy without the skills can still get a job than someone who is too dark to be considered.  Bravo to the parents and to the educational system.

[Ijustwannateach]

Heh heh heh... well, we'll have to agree to disagree on some points, Buki.

But you're right that very often a non-native speaker is better at knowing/explaining technical points of grammar; many times the native speakers have not formally studied it in quite a long time.  However, in my comparisons of native/non-native speakers, I was speaking of *competent* native-speaking teachers.  You can compare anything you like favourably to an *incompetent* native-speaking teacher.

"Steven"

[Buki]

Ijustwannateach, on 2006-02-16 09:09:51, said:

Heh heh heh... well, we'll have to agree to disagree on some points, Buki.

But you're right that very often a non-native speaker is better at knowing/explaining technical points of grammar; many times the native speakers have not formally studied it in quite a long time.  However, in my comparisons of native/non-native speakers, I was speaking of *competent* native-speaking teachers.  You can compare anything you like favourably to an *incompetent* native-speaking teacher.

"Steven"

It was still a weak comparison Steven.  Tell me, how much is the ratio of a competent native speaker and competent Filipino teacher? If we have the same number of population here in BKK, I would figure out that we would out number your qualified and competent teacher.  How many Filipinos that doesn't have any degree coming here to LOS?  

It is an accepted fact that it is difficult for an Asian EFL teacher to get a job because their preference of race.  I just don't like the tone of the idea that throwing Filipino (without a degree???) to teach low skilled students, because they wouldn't know the difference.  How can you say that?  These children deserves proper education not an excuse that their brains or their pockets just can't afford a good  English Teacher.  But hey, the consolation for these kids is that they are being taught by someone with good academic background and experience, not just some lousy person you can pick-up at Kawsan who can't even spell a word even his life depended on it.

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, Buki, money talks.  And in a rational labour market (which is far from what Thailand is, but we can all hope), better skills should get higher wages.

I like you, Buki, and I'm sure you probably are a good teacher.  Your English is far better than I think it is likely my foreign language skills will ever get in any language.  However, it is not quite native level.   In some of the schools where I have taught (and the one I am in now), many students would be able to proofread your messages and locate errors.  I know we're on a forum now and in a school you would be more careful, etc., etc., so this is maybe not the best example- but I believe the more advanced students would notice the difference not only in your nationality but also in your English.

I know there are a lot of awful so-called native speakers out there who wouldn't even have your vocabulary level- so I know where you're coming from talking about the KSR types.  I'd prefer that they, too, stick with the younger or lower-level students.  But I understand that, when faced with a pile of resumes and trying to fill a position, managers err on the side of caution in choosing native speakers over non-natives- white shouldn't have anything to do with it, though often it does.

That said, for those lower-skill level students, I would recommend a highly skilled and motivated non-native speaker like you over a white face from KSR any day of the week.

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

Gotcha Steve Fair enough!

[Buki]

Ijustwannateach, on 2006-02-16 10:26:36, said:

Well, Buki, money talks.  And in a rational labour market (which is far from what Thailand is, but we can all hope), better skills should get higher wages.

I like you, Buki, and I'm sure you probably are a good teacher.  Your English is far better than I think it is likely my foreign language skills will ever get in any language.  However, it is not quite native level.   In some of the schools where I have taught (and the one I am in now), many students would be able to proofread your messages and locate errors.  I know we're on a forum now and in a school you would be more careful, etc., etc., so this is maybe not the best example- but I believe the more advanced students would notice the difference not only in your nationality but also in your English.

I know there are a lot of awful so-called native speakers out there who wouldn't even have your vocabulary level- so I know where you're coming from talking about the KSR types.  I'd prefer that they, too, stick with the younger or lower-level students.  But I understand that, when faced with a pile of resumes and trying to fill a position, managers err on the side of caution in choosing native speakers over non-natives- white shouldn't have anything to do with it, though often it does.

That said, for those lower-skill level students, I would recommend a highly skilled and motivated non-native speaker like you over a white face from KSR any day of the week.

"Steven"

Funny that you would say that Steven.  It's another error of native speakers to assume that teaching writing needs to be at a "native" level .  What is native level kind of writing IJWT?  Do you mean to say that it is a style of writing that only native speakers can do? Would be the tone of the writing be too American or too British?  Has that kind of style become a benchmark for academic writing classes?  What has become of the standard International English way of teaching the basic components of English langauge acquisition?

Anybody can proofread my messages Steven, any student around the world can notice ambigious grammatical blunders done by anybody, even yours.  Advance, intermediate or beginner... any qualified teacher can teach them that skill.  The emphasis that these student needs someone native enough to teach them writing seemed misconstrued.  I beg to differ, we are teaching English, the standard of English that can be understood by anyone who understands English around the world.  My emphasis and my point that skills should be the basis of teaching as a prequisite and not just from where you are born from.   You should wonder why some American states are hiring Filipino English Teachers to English to their English speaking sons and daughters.

Unfortunate for me, in this country, they seemed to see things differently.  

[PeaceBlondie]

In a perfect world in which the employer uses rational considerations (not entirely likely in certain kingdoms), he or she would pick the best qualified TEACHER.  And ideally if this kingdom were politically correct by Western standards, they would never consider race, skin color, nationality, religion, etc.  But this is Thailand.

If I were choosing among candidates for a TEFL job in Thailand and my boss didn't care what the parents or students thought ....

We interrupt this post for a reality check.  I was going to complete this thought, but it's just absurd.  Say what you will, as a non-Thai, about how to choose good farang teachers, and you may as well be teaching the toilet wall how to speak Urdu.  The Thai administrators and students and parents are not going to listen to our advice.

So, it's a crying shame that a Filipino who speaks and writes better than some Americans, Brits, Aussies, etc., gets passed over.  I'm sorry, Buki, really.  But most of the schools will do that.  All I know to advise you and others in your unfortunate situation is to keep trying.

[Buki]

PeaceBlondie, on 2006-02-16 13:21:50, said:

So, it's a crying shame that a Filipino who speaks and writes better than some Americans, Brits, Aussies, etc., gets passed over.  I'm sorry, Buki, really.  But most of the schools will do that.  All I know to advise you and others in your unfortunate situation is to keep trying.

Thanks PB, I totally understand the situation here and it something that I as a non native speaker must work double time on my chances.  And it is futile to change the system or even inspire non-academic minds to open-up to that idea.  

But what I didn't like from the previous posts is that, it is a known fact that we (non native speakers) are already at the losing end and yet someone still sees our qualifications as insufficient enough to teach by someone own's standard.  

My rant was just in defense of many misguided ideas.  That's all folks.

[Ijustwannateach]

Buki, I respect the points you've made, but I stand by what I said, too.  I think we should agree to disagree and move on.

[Mister Fixit]

[quote name='griser' post='644497' date='2006-02-14 12:52:19'][quote name='kkk33' post='644024' date='2006-02-14 12:11:09']
What about non-native English speakers, assuming their English is reasonably well, how easy/difficult would it be to do a Tefl course ?
And what are their chances on the job market ?[/quote]


The tefl is easy for a non speaker, you probably know more grammer
Greg
[/quote]

Or even 'grammar' ...     


[quote name='kkk33' post='645345' date='2006-02-15 02:56:54'][quote name='bonsaimax' post='644563' date='2006-02-14 19:26:39']
[quote]The tefl is easy for a non speaker, you probably know more grammer than the average Native speaker.[/quote]

Native speakers probably need it more.
[/quote]

So what's the reason that almost all schools emphasize they only want native English speakers ?
[/quote]

Apart from the reasons already mentioned, primarily pronunciation, I'd say.  Many non-native speakers DO have some sort of accent and it is not going to sit well with students, parents and the Min of Ed if the teacher, despite perhaps being better at grammar than a native speaker, actually does not S{EAK the language like a native.

I know two great Swedish guys whose English be pretty ###### good in many ways, but they speak it with an idiosyncratic style ('Take care FOR yourself' one insists on saying), and also their pronunciationis just not as good as a native.

[quote name='kkk33' post='645345' date='2006-02-15 02:56:54'][quote name='bonsaimax' post='644563' date='2006-02-14 19:26:39']
[quote]The tefl is easy for a non speaker, you probably know more grammer than the average Native speaker.[/quote]

Native speakers probably need it more.
[/quote]

So what's the reason that almost all schools emphasize they only want native English speakers ?
[/quote]

There's another reason I just thought of  - I looked at the board in a Thai teacher's room the other day.

On it, she'd written 'I am to do shopping today'.  Maybe the schools prefer competent people??