9 replies to this topic

[wasabi]

I reviewed this from the help on this site

Note that น้ำ is typed in the order: consonant, tonemark, vowel. Do not type  ำ as two symbols - if you do, most search software will not equate it to  ำ as a single symbol.

However I am not sure how to make it one symbol?

For example When I type Lahmbak it comes out like this

ลําบาก

though it's supposed to be like this

ลำบาก

if you enter the first in thai-language.com it doesn't recognize it.

[Tywais]

wasabi, on 2006-06-05 12:24:13, said:

I reviewed this from the help on this site

Note that น้ำ is typed in the order: consonant, tonemark, vowel. Do not type  ำ as two symbols - if you do, most search software will not equate it to  ำ as a single symbol.

However I am not sure how to make it one symbol?

For example When I type Lahmbak it comes out like this

ลำบาก

though it's supposed to be like this

ลำบาก

if you enter the first in thai-language.com it doesn't recognize it.

If you look on your Thai/English keyboard the letter "E" shows the combined ํ and า as ำ  So it is one character as opposed to two characters you should be entering.

They look the same  ลำบาก   ลําบาก  but for dictionary and spelling checkers they are different.  Copy and paste in your dictionary and you will see the difference.

Edited by tywais, 2006-06-05 12:39:24.

[wasabi]

Yes that was the problem is there ever a reason to type ำ  the other way?

[Tywais]

wasabi, on 2006-06-05 12:38:45, said:

Yes that was the problem is there ever a reason to type ำ  the other way?

Probably only if you are using a typewriter and not a computer maybe the only reason to type it as separate characters, but I've never used a Thai typewriter and don't know if it is combined on it also.

Just checked with the wife and she says the typewriter is the same, single character for  ำ. So there is no reason to type the other way.

Edited by tywais, 2006-06-05 12:56:16.

[Rikker]

Only if you wanted to write about the makeup of Thai vowels, how ำ = _ํ + า, or _ึ = _ิ+_ํ, but that's a very old way of thinking about things. For common functional use, there's never a need to type ำ as two keystrokes, no.

Edited by Rikker, 2006-06-05 20:07:38.

[Richard W]

wasabi, on 2006-06-05 06:38:45, said:

Yes that was the problem is there ever a reason to type ำ  the other way?

Might it help get swear words past a filter?  (I don't have one in mind.)

Nikkhahit (the first part) is there for typing Pali and Sanskrit, though I suppose you might contemplate using it to transliterate Lao or the Tham script.  It's a crying shame that Unicode didn't abolish the distinction or indeed, the distinction between sara aa and lakkhangyao (the second part of ฤๅ).

[wasabi]

Richard W, on 2006-06-06 05:08:16, said:

wasabi, on 2006-06-05 06:38:45, said:

Yes that was the problem is there ever a reason to type ำ  the other way?

Might it help get swear words past a filter?  (I don't have one in mind.)

Nikkhahit (the first part) is there for typing Pali and Sanskrit, though I suppose you might contemplate using it to transliterate Lao or the Tham script.  It's a crying shame that Unicode didn't abolish the distinction or indeed, the distinction between sara aa and lakkhangyao (the second part of ฤๅ).

On a similar note when is ๅ used?  (note this is not า) it's bigger on the 1 key.

[Tywais]

wasabi, on 2006-06-06 13:04:50, said:

On a similar note when is ๅ used?  (note this is not า) it's bigger on the 1 key.

It is rarely used and mostly in poetry and the name of certain monks that wear tiger skins. Example use is ฤๅ which is prounced reuw.  Had to ask 4 thais here at CMU before one could answer the question, even then none of them knows what it is called.    Interesting thing is that some of the characters on the Thai keyboard even though rare were put there to fill the keyboard out rather then have any empty spots.

[Richard W]

tywais, on 2006-06-06 09:11:35, said:

wasabi, on 2006-06-06 13:04:50, said:

On a similar note when is ๅ used?  (note this is not า) it's bigger on the 1 key.

It is rarely used and mostly in poetry and the name of certain monks that wear tiger skins. Example use is ฤๅ which is prounced reuw.  Had to ask 4 thais here at CMU before one could answer the question, even then none of them knows what it is called.    Interesting thing is that some of the characters on the Thai keyboard even though rare were put there to fill the keyboard out rather then have any empty spots.

Both the long side mark (ลากข้างยาว) and the normal side mark (ลากข้าง) are used to lengthen vowels.  The long side mark lengthens ฤ and, allegedly, ฦ, though I would be surprised to find ฦๅ outside the likes of a grammar book or Sanskrit dictionary.  The long side mark has no other uses.  The normal side mark lengthens the implicit vowel, and historically it is also part of the sara ii and sara uu vowels.  As Tywais was hinting, the first word that comes to mind when looking for ฤๅ is ฤๅษี.

Thais have had a tendency to muddle the two signs up (I'm not sure they really are two signs - the size depends on what the sign follows), and therefore standard computer keyboard design is required to stop one muddling them up.  As to what is on the keyboard, well, I suppose the alphabet had to take priority.  A couple of punctuation symbols are missing - angkhankhu, fongman and khomut off the top of my head.

[Rikker]

As for former usage, the Rev. Jones' Thai-English dictionary (ca. 1846) has the following words spelled with ลากข้างยาว, either as part of ฤๅ or ภๅ:

นิฤๅพาน A state of unconcousness to wh. persons of extraordinary merit attain according to Buddhist theology
ปฤๅดี Conscious; sensible
พระหฤๅไทย์ The royal or divine mind
หืฤๅไทย Mind, wish, will, inclination
หืฤๅหรรษา To rejoice
หืฤๅโหด Stubborn, obstinate, ungrateful, vile
หะฤๅไทย์ The mind, the will
หฤๅ Interrogative particle
ฤๅษี To enjoy one's self
ฤๅษีร An anchorite, religious ascetic, sage
ฤๅเสีย To remove, pull down

ฦๅ Fame, rumor, report
ฦๅชา "        "         "

(The above definitions are word-for-word from the dictionary, including occasional archaic spelling)

Here are a couple that are easy to locate modern equivalents for, which are no longer spelled with ฤ or ฦ (or ๅ):
นิฤๅพาน = นิพพาน
ปฤๅดี = ปรีดี (Probably)
หฤๅ = หรือ
ฦๅ = ลือ (This archaic spelling is even mentioned in RID. It comes from Khmer, and nowadays ลือ is a verb, which is in line with the modern Khmer--Huffman lists the Khmer reflex as an adjective in his dictionary under 'famed' or 'famous')
ฦๅชา = ลือชา
ฤๅเสืย = รื้อเสีย (Probably)

The rest are pretty much close to their modern equivalents, minus the ลากข้างยาว:

พระหฤๅไทย์ = พระหฤทัย
หะฤๅไทย์, หืฤๅไทย = หฤทัย
หืฤๅหรรษา = หฤหรรษ์
หืฤๅโหด = หฤโหด
ฤๅดี = ฤดี/ฤๅดี
ฤๅษีร = ฤษี/ฤๅษี (I don't understand why there's a ร on the end of the former.. can't find anything to clear it up.. Richard?)

Edited by Rikker, 2006-06-08 12:36:59.