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[jdinasia]

Geeze Luk ... paying for votes as you say your fellows that won the election is not very democratic .... <<Therefore it is hard to argue that they won anything or that the vast majority of the people wanted them at all ... apparently you say they paid for votes ... so the vast majority wanted the $$>>

and you skipped the second part of that 2 liner you responded to .... Bieng caught vote buying certainly qualifies the candidate for being excluded from politics for 5 years ... and if the money comes from the party coffers ... there goes the party.

Edited by jdinasia, 2006-06-12 02:12:10.

[lukamar]

jdinasia, on 2006-06-12 02:10:35, said:

and you skipped the second part of that 2 liner you responded to

Don't think so.   I said, "so do ALL the other parties,".  They all do it,they are all just a guilty, Or is it you only want to see your vision of it, I can see that there is another side.  Sometime you should push your hatred aside and realize that there are two sides to a coin.

[ilyushin]

Auk Pai TRT! Let us see if this happens "TRT Targeted For Dissolution" or not.

[h90]

lukamar, on 2006-06-12 01:58:14, said:

h90, on 2006-06-11 14:14:12, said:

So you agree that TRT paid people to vote them, right? (paying more means that someone paid).
Paying people to vote for you is in all countries illegal and more than a reason to disolve a party.

Of course they do, I've said that before.  The point a lot of posters here don't want to see is, so do ALL the other parties, or at least in the areas of the North that my extended family lives, 3 provinces.  They are all equally to blame for vote buying it's corruption on a vast scale in Thailand from the top down.  Anyone living in Thailand for any length of time, Farang or Thai,  has passed some cash to someone sometime for something that's the way it is, that's the way it has been and that's the way it will probably stay for some time to come.

for example yesterday I passed 50 Baht cash to the small supermarket and they gave me something (1 bottle singha) thats the way it is OK.

If other parties also do it, it is one more reason to disolve TRT for it to show the other parties what may happen. Of course the others also did it, but TRT in the largest scale and most easy to prove.
So disolve TRT, and after the next election disolve the next party which did the same.

If you stay at court for killing someone, it would sound very strange if your arguments are:

Also other people killed someone.
Killing people happens, thats the way it is, it has been and it the way it will be....

that sounds crazy right? But you use the same strategie in your arguments.

As well if you accept that parties just buy themself into parliament, why do we run elections, it is just a waste of money, let the most rich beeing the ruler for lifetime or unless his bankaccount is the biggest. It was in the past so it will be in future is really a weak argument.

[hammered]

lukamar, on 2006-06-12 01:58:14, said:

h90, on 2006-06-11 14:14:12, said:

So you agree that TRT paid people to vote them, right? (paying more means that someone paid).
Paying people to vote for you is in all countries illegal and more than a reason to disolve a party.

Of course they do, I've said that before.  The point a lot of posters here don't want to see is, so do ALL the other parties, or at least in the areas of the North that my extended family lives, 3 provinces.  They are all equally to blame for vote buying it's corruption on a vast scale in Thailand from the top down.  Anyone living in Thailand for any length of time, Farang or Thai,  has passed some cash to someone sometime for something that's the way it is, that's the way it has been and that's the way it will probably stay for some time to come.

A tad cynical to say everyone in Thailand has passed money at some time. According to my wife she has never paid corruption money for anyting ever, and I doubt she is the only one. She also says neither her nor her mother have ever taken money or handouts from anyone especially politicians after votes. Again I doubt they are the only family. I would not question corruption is widespread but to suggest absolutely everyone is involved is taking it a bit far.

[Plus]

The first TRT's reaction was to distance the party from Thamarak. I don't think it wil work with courts. Thamarak had no personal interests or motives to bribe small parties or falsify EC's official records. He's one of the top party list MPs, one of the top party's executives, and he was acting in whole party's interests.

Lower ranked TRT members were surely not quilty for his crimes and Nam's report pointed to Thaksin who should be held responsible for Thamarak's actions.

What will eventually happen? Will TRT be dissolved? Possible scenarios, in  rising order - Thamarak alone goes down, Thamarak and Thaksin are found guilty and banned from politics for five years, the whole executive board takes the blame and is banned from politics, or, in addition to the above the whole party is dissolved but ordinary party members face no punishment and can run in the elections under any other party's banner.

I seriosly doubt that in the current climate Thamarak will get away scot-free. It would have been certain last year when courts were TRT friendly, but the tide has turned. With EC openly challenging courts power on behalf of TRT, TRT can hardly expect any sympathy from judges.

[ilyushin]

Thaksin will distance the party even more from Thamarak, but Iunderstand that this may include up to 127 possible MP prospectives.

Who delegated the job to Thamarak? How many MOD Ministers has Thaksin   had already?

If TRT ( Thaksin and buds) get off the entire system has failed.  
5 year banned from politics is less than a parking ticket. Get a rope!

[ovenman]

Plus, on 2006-06-12 12:18:34, said:

Possible scenarios, in  rising order - Thamarak alone goes down,...

That's what I would predict were this the West and there weren't the whole concept of face needing to be saved.  Throw Thamarak under the bus alone and make him take the fall for the whole shebang.  Factoring in the concept of face though, who knows...

[penzman]

Plus, on 2006-06-12 12:18:34, said:

The first TRT's reaction was to distance the party from Thamarak. I don't think it wil work with courts. Thamarak had no personal interests or motives to bribe small parties or falsify EC's official records. He's one of the top party list MPs, one of the top party's executives, and he was acting in whole party's interests.

Lower ranked TRT members were surely not quilty for his crimes and Nam's report pointed to Thaksin who should be held responsible for Thamarak's actions.

What will eventually happen? Will TRT be dissolved? Possible scenarios, in  rising order - Thamarak alone goes down, Thamarak and Thaksin are found guilty and banned from politics for five years, the whole executive board takes the blame and is banned from politics, or, in addition to the above the whole party is dissolved but ordinary party members face no punishment and can run in the elections under any other party's banner.

I seriosly doubt that in the current climate Thamarak will get away scot-free. It would have been certain last year when courts were TRT friendly, but the tide has turned. With EC openly challenging courts power on behalf of TRT, TRT can hardly expect any sympathy from judges.

...and not learn a lesson personally only to function the same way again elsewhere?

I say ban them all. No one was pointing a gun at their heads preventing them to jump ship (as far as I know) if they were really honest. Not leaving a party that acted the way it did tells me they approved of it and it makes them just as guilty.

[jdinasia]

am not so sure I agree with that Penz ....

the low level folks may have had no real knowledge of what the bosses were doing ....

it takes a certain mind-set to look for the answers and make decisions and not just keep on truckin

[h90]

my wife basically never give any money for corruption, there were just a very few cases (like if really your future depends on it and there is no other way anymore). What I heared from her sister:TRT hand out a lot money in the south (not the last vote, the vote before) and they took it but vote different.
The strange point of view was: if someone offer me money, why not take it? But I vote who I want to vote.
I still think if I should consider this as unhonest instead of corrupt or just as street-wise?? I don't know.

hammered, on 2006-06-12 11:55:48, said:

lukamar, on 2006-06-12 01:58:14, said:

h90, on 2006-06-11 14:14:12, said:

So you agree that TRT paid people to vote them, right? (paying more means that someone paid).
Paying people to vote for you is in all countries illegal and more than a reason to disolve a party.

Of course they do, I've said that before.  The point a lot of posters here don't want to see is, so do ALL the other parties, or at least in the areas of the North that my extended family lives, 3 provinces.  They are all equally to blame for vote buying it's corruption on a vast scale in Thailand from the top down.  Anyone living in Thailand for any length of time, Farang or Thai,  has passed some cash to someone sometime for something that's the way it is, that's the way it has been and that's the way it will probably stay for some time to come.

A tad cynical to say everyone in Thailand has passed money at some time. According to my wife she has never paid corruption money for anyting ever, and I doubt she is the only one. She also says neither her nor her mother have ever taken money or handouts from anyone especially politicians after votes. Again I doubt they are the only family. I would not question corruption is widespread but to suggest absolutely everyone is involved is taking it a bit far.

[lukamar]

h90, on 2006-06-12 18:56:35, said:

What I heared from her sister:TRT hand out a lot money in the south (not the last vote, the vote before) and they took it but vote different.

The strange point of view was: if someone offer me money, why not take it? But I vote who I want to vote.

The same is true in the North.  All the parties do it.  

This is what I've been saying.  The grassroots people take the money and may as you state vote whatever way they want.  It's like the payout is "expected" by them but rationalized as not being part of the problem.  They just look at it differently and my family takes the money or handouts from the parties as well and surprisingly with the same rational, as yours, that if someone wants to give it to them something, why not take it.  Until this grassroots attitude is changed the system will stay in existence, it will just go more underground and with a lot more secrecy in how and where handouts are made.

[ando]

There can sometimes be a fine line between tips, gratuities and bribes.

When I was getting the wifes visa organized we gave the head man at the local Amphur a bottle of Johny Walker black label to ensure all the paperwork was right. Not there was anything wrong with the paperwork, but the family assured me it would speed up the process.

Also, when we went to get the police check for her criminal history clearance, the interviewing officer who was of senior rank handed us a brown paper bag to put the paperwork and search fee in. The wife assured me she had no criminal history, so I just put the standard fee in the bag and handed it back to him.

Another time we were driving down the highway when we were waved down at a police road block.
My driver is a middle ranking Army career man and he leaves his cap on the dashboard even though he was on leave and in civvies. The police officer who was waving us over spotted the cap and the army base security sticker on the windscreen when we were nearly stopped. He snapped to attention, saluted us and waved us on immediately.

I dont agree with bribes or other corrupt practices. Even tipping goes against my grain as I believe in fair payment for a fair days work and did not grow up in USA where it is ingrained into the culture and wage structure of service industries. But when in a foreign country, I tend to just go with the flow of what is considered normal accepted practice in order to avoid any problems.

My point is that bribes and corrupt payments seem to be ingrained into Thai culture at almost every level and are generally accepted as normal practice by most Thais.

Even in western societies we see big companies and unions giving money to political parties. Obviously, they dont do it because they just like giving money away, they do it in the hope of gaining some financial advantage from the recipient. And sometimes the big companies give money equally to opposing political parties just to be seen to be fair and non-political. But of course, what the big company gives to a political party, they can take away if that parties thinking is not in line with some advantage to the company. The boundaries between corrupt practices and what is seen as normal practice can become a little blurred sometimes. Each country draws a line where "donations" become corrupt payments. However there is often some overlap in what  accepted practice culturally among the general population and what is acceptable under the law of the country.

Edited by ando, 2006-06-13 07:24:01.

[John K]

jdinasia, on 2006-06-12 14:40:59, said:

am not so sure I agree with that Penz ....

the low level folks may have had no real knowledge of what the bosses were doing ....

it takes a certain mind-set to look for the answers and make decisions and not just keep on truckin

If everyone gets burned from the top down, it will encourage self policing of the next group. That will in turn encourage responsible voting thus minimizing the need for similar future action.

Is it drastic, perhaps. Is it effective, absolutely.  

[chownah]

As I see it, whoever gets burned will be those without the power and those who do the burning will be those who have the power and this has nothing to do with corruption....only with who has the power....nothing to do with democratic institutions.....only with who has the power.   In Thailand power is achieved by engaging in corrupt practices.  This happens everywhere from selling large corporations to getting a surveyor to change survey marker locations and associated paperwork.  It extends from which neighborhood gets more of the irrigation water to who gets to buy government bonds with high rates of interest return.  It extends from who gets to steal reinforcing steel from highway projects and sell it for their own gain to who gets to control parking rights on public streets.   It is everywhere and it is the basis for power in Thailand.  Any public figure that gets burned for corruption is seen by Thais as simply not having the power......the factor of corruption is assumed by Thais and is not considered as part of the dynamic....it is the power that is the dynamic and those who are successfully corrupt will hold the power.

Chownah

[chownah]

chownah, on 2006-06-13 13:56:14, said:

As I see it, whoever gets burned will be those without the power and those who do the burning will be those who have the power and this has nothing to do with corruption....only with who has the power....nothing to do with democratic institutions.....only with who has the power.   In Thailand power is achieved by engaging in corrupt practices.  This happens everywhere from selling large corporations to getting a surveyor to change survey marker locations and associated paperwork.  It extends from which neighborhood gets more of the irrigation water to who gets to buy government bonds with high rates of interest return.  It extends from who gets to steal reinforcing steel from highway projects and sell it for their own gain to who gets to control parking rights on public streets.   It is everywhere and it is the basis for power in Thailand.  Any public figure that gets burned for corruption is seen by Thais as simply not having the power......the factor of corruption is assumed by Thais and is not considered as part of the dynamic....it is the power that is the dynamic and those who are successfully corrupt will hold the power.

Chownah

Just to clarify where I'm coming from with the above:  I do think it is good to work against corruption.....however.....if people think that getting rid of some politicians will make a major advance on this front then I think they are mistaken.  I think if people think that by getting rid of some politicians that true democratic process will emerge, then I think they are mistaken.  If people want to bypass democratic processes until corruption is ended, then I think that they are dreaming as I don't think that this will work....it will just put off development of democratic processes indefinitely.  I don't have the solution except to keep up the pressure on corrupt officials but to simultaneously develop democratic instutions and systems.  People will not take the vote seriously until thay see that the vote is actully what has the power.  The actions now are tending to show people that their vote doesn't matter.....PAD wants to guide the gov't in a different direction than what the voters want.  If gov't policy goes against the voters wishes then the voters will learn that the vote doesn't really matter....the vote doesn't have the power.  When people think the vote doesn't have the power then why take it seriously?...why not sell the vote to the highest bidder?  This entire TRT thing is probably the first time that it will be clear to voters whether the vote has power or not.  If the TRT is ousted then the answer will be clearly that vote has no power and the development of democratic institutions in Thailand will be set back............in my opinion.

Chownah

[jdinasia]

Chownah ... if votes are subverted by vote buying and election rigging then votes have now value anyways ...

Democracy requires that JUSTICE be important

[John K]

chownah, on 2006-06-13 13:56:14, said:

As I see it, whoever gets burned will be those without the power and those who do the burning will be those who have the power and this has nothing to do with corruption....only with who has the power....nothing to do with democratic institutions.....only with who has the power.   In Thailand power is achieved by engaging in corrupt practices.  This happens everywhere from selling large corporations to getting a surveyor to change survey marker locations and associated paperwork.  It extends from which neighborhood gets more of the irrigation water to who gets to buy government bonds with high rates of interest return.  It extends from who gets to steal reinforcing steel from highway projects and sell it for their own gain to who gets to control parking rights on public streets.   It is everywhere and it is the basis for power in Thailand.  Any public figure that gets burned for corruption is seen by Thais as simply not having the power......the factor of corruption is assumed by Thais and is not considered as part of the dynamic....it is the power that is the dynamic and those who are successfully corrupt will hold the power.

Chownah

The people who should get burned are the people in elected TRT offices. When the new government is seated they will remove who they must from the appointed offices.

Think about it for a moment and you will understand how it works. If your job and source of income depended on someone else following the law, would you not do everything in your power to see they stay straight? Policing from the inside is easier than from the outside. All this does is give the added incentive. Think of this as anti cancer medication.

Corruption is like cancer. You can’t expect to go into surgery and have the surgeon  remove some hoping the rest will go away on it’s own. You need to remove as much as you can without killing the host in the process. Simply there is no other answer. Even the best surgeon must remove some healthy tissue to remove the cancer, so yes some innocent will suffer.

[ando]

Indeed, I  agree with you chownah.

Thais tend to worry less about who might hold the moral/ethical high ground than who holds the actual power. For it those who hold the power who have the ability to make a difference in their lives.

Edited by ando, 2006-06-13 15:26:57.

[ColPyat]

chownah, on 2006-06-13 14:56:59, said:

This entire TRT thing is probably the first time that it will be clear to voters whether the vote has power or not.  If the TRT is ousted then the answer will be clearly that vote has no power and the development of democratic institutions in Thailand will be set back............in my opinion.

Chownah

Very well summed up.  

[h90]

lukamar, on 2006-06-13 04:23:41, said:

h90, on 2006-06-12 18:56:35, said:

What I heared from her sister:TRT hand out a lot money in the south (not the last vote, the vote before) and they took it but vote different.

The strange point of view was: if someone offer me money, why not take it? But I vote who I want to vote.

The same is true in the North.  All the parties do it.  

This is what I've been saying.  The grassroots people take the money and may as you state vote whatever way they want.  It's like the payout is "expected" by them but rationalized as not being part of the problem.  They just look at it differently and my family takes the money or handouts from the parties as well and surprisingly with the same rational, as yours, that if someone wants to give it to them something, why not take it.  Until this grassroots attitude is changed the system will stay in existence, it will just go more underground and with a lot more secrecy in how and where handouts are made.

I think that is more specific south that they take the money from TRT and vote for the Democrates (which at least in that place did not hand out any money).
I think (but might be wrong) in the north they are more "honest" in voting what they paid for (I think)

[chownah]

jdinasia, on 2006-06-13 15:16:15, said:

Chownah ... if votes are subverted by vote buying and election rigging then votes have now value anyways ...

Democracy requires that JUSTICE be important

I agree with what you're saying.  Justice IS important.  The vote is not regarded highly in Thailand at present as evidenced by people being swayed by infusions of cash at election time.  Thai voters do not in general (in my opinion) feel that by voting they will be able to change the power structure in politics and that is why they are swayed by a flash of cash.  Even though I abhor the corruption that is happening today in the gov't, I do not think that bringing down the TRT will send the message to Thai people that justice has been served because it is widely known by Thai people that the main actors in the opposition to the TRT are corrupt as well and equally so....to Thais it would be just one group of corrupt people who have gotten the upper hand over another group of corrupt people....it will not be seen as justice being done but as those who have the power having their way over those who have less power.  I think if the TRT is dissolved the main thing that Thais will learn is that the vote does not have the power and politicians will learn that it is better to find some powerful person to ally with and use the vote as merely a test to be passed before you can be put onto the stage where, once you are there, it is only serving the interest of the powers that be that will allow you to stay on the stage.  I think that Toxin is using this concept....he hopes that the vote in fact DOES have enough power to keep him on the stage and he no longer needs to accomodate the powers that were there when he entered.  Even though what he has done with this power is distasteful I still think that he has in effect created a national referendum on power in the politics of Thailand....this referendum will to a great extent determine whether power will come from the voters or will it come from the corrupt members of the gov't apparatus past and present.  In my view if the opposition (both political and social...which means inclucing PAD even though they are "not political") wins then the referendum will be settled and Thais will know that power comes from the corrupt.....on the other hand if the TRT wins then the voters will know a little bit more surely that indeed the vote does have some power.

So, where  does justice come into this equation?  I think that the more people learn that the vote does have power the more they will move toward a just system of gov't.  To have a democracy you MUST have a majority of people who believe in democracy and that democracy will not only effectively run the country but also do it with justice.  Once people do truly see that their votes really do count they will start to demand a more just allocation of wealth.......in my opinion.
Chownah

[John K]

This is actually a unique opportunity for Thailand to do a clean sweep. I know it looks good on paper, but I expect there to be some stubborn stains that may require a good stiff wire brush to remove.

[ilyushin]

ColPyat, on 2006-06-13 16:02:38, said:

chownah, on 2006-06-13 14:56:59, said:

This entire TRT thing is probably the first time that it will be clear to voters whether the vote has power or not.  If the TRT is ousted then the answer will be clearly that vote has no power and the development of democratic institutions in Thailand will be set back............in my opinion.

Chownah

Very well summed up.  

Plop, Plop, Fizz, Fizz? TrT

[jdinasia]

chownah, on 2006-06-13 09:46:33, said:

jdinasia, on 2006-06-13 15:16:15, said:

Chownah ... if votes are subverted by vote buying and election rigging then votes have now value anyways ...

Democracy requires that JUSTICE be important

I agree with what you're saying.  Justice IS important.  The vote is not regarded highly in Thailand at present as evidenced by people being swayed by infusions of cash at election time.  Thai voters do not in general (in my opinion) feel that by voting they will be able to change the power structure in politics and that is why they are swayed by a flash of cash.  Even though I abhor the corruption that is happening today in the gov't, I do not think that bringing down the TRT will send the message to Thai people that justice has been served because it is widely known by Thai people that the main actors in the opposition to the TRT are corrupt as well and equally so....to Thais it would be just one group of corrupt people who have gotten the upper hand over another group of corrupt people....it will not be seen as justice being done but as those who have the power having their way over those who have less power.  I think if the TRT is dissolved the main thing that Thais will learn is that the vote does not have the power and politicians will learn that it is better to find some powerful person to ally with and use the vote as merely a test to be passed before you can be put onto the stage where, once you are there, it is only serving the interest of the powers that be that will allow you to stay on the stage.  I think that Toxin is using this concept....he hopes that the vote in fact DOES have enough power to keep him on the stage and he no longer needs to accomodate the powers that were there when he entered.  Even though what he has done with this power is distasteful I still think that he has in effect created a national referendum on power in the politics of Thailand....this referendum will to a great extent determine whether power will come from the voters or will it come from the corrupt members of the gov't apparatus past and present.  In my view if the opposition (both political and social...which means inclucing PAD even though they are "not political") wins then the referendum will be settled and Thais will know that power comes from the corrupt.....on the other hand if the TRT wins then the voters will know a little bit more surely that indeed the vote does have some power.

So, where  does justice come into this equation?  I think that the more people learn that the vote does have power the more they will move toward a just system of gov't.  To have a democracy you MUST have a majority of people who believe in democracy and that democracy will not only effectively run the country but also do it with justice.  Once people do truly see that their votes really do count they will start to demand a more just allocation of wealth.......in my opinion.
Chownah

IMHO you are putting the horse behind the cart!

This is a first REAL chance to deal with financial power politics from the top in a meaningful way!

We are NOT just looking at vote buying ... we are looking at the deliberate demise of checks and balances ... of a deliberate silencing of a Free Press ... and at a deliberate subversion of Democracy through money <paying parties to run so that you can avoid the 20% rule>>

ALL political parties will learn from this as will all voters ... If you Buy, coerce, subvert your way into office .... you and your cronies are gone!