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[camerata]

auntyedna, on 2009-08-10 18:25:51, said:

1) Is there anyone out there, or does anyone know of anyone, who has successfully graduated from retirement visa (i.e. no work permit) to PR?

I don't recall hearing of anyone who has done this.

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2) If so, and with reference to antony77's unnerving post (22Apr09) regarding tax, has any retiree with PR suddenly found that he has to start paying Thai tax on overseas income? This is fundamentally important to us all. I understand that Thai nationals are supposed to pay tax on worldwide income.

I believe antony77 misunderstood the situation and another member PM'd me to the same effect. You are liable for tax on overseas income if it comes into Thailand the same year it was earned. It doesn't matter whether you have PR or not.

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Following on from that, I would most appreciate assessments of whether I would be successful in obtaining PR. My c.v. in summary:

You can always ask Immigration or ask a legal company like Sunbelt, but I don't think you have much chance. Frankly, your situation here looks pretty solid. Do you really need PR? There are some disadvantages with it, like having to take your PR book with you when you go overseas.

[auntyedna]

stbkk, on 2009-08-12 20:49:08, said:

PS. I've been waiting since the 2006 entry, and am as your original post surmised, frustrated to say the least! Can I borrow one of your 'influential friends'?

Well as we saw on TV the other night, my main 'influential friend' is more or less stuck at Hua Hin these days, being a bit too fragile to get about like he used to. My other 'friend' gave Mr Thaksin the F.O. when he asked him to support his pardon the other day, so hey! maybe there's a chance... I'll see what I can do!! Meanwhile...

... I've been back to the immigration website and under "Criteria and Conditions for Foreign Nationals Residential Permit Consideration", sections 2.3, 2.5, 3.3 and 3.5 appear (to me anyway) to pave the way for a residential permit without the need to show tax. There even seems to be an opening for me to apply as a dependent of my wife, provided she can show an income of Baht 30,000 a month and two years' tax records. What I am trying to find is a Camerata-like individual who has managed to get PR under one of the other non-employment headings, and what I infer so far from you guys is that no one has heard of such a person. OK, fine. If the Room 301 people are friendly as you say, then the least I can do is pop in for a chat.

Anyway, thanks for great replies. I think you've saved me a lot of time and heartache.

[Time Traveller]

auntyedna, on 2009-08-14 20:46:06, said:

... I've been back to the immigration website and under "Criteria and Conditions for Foreign Nationals Residential Permit Consideration", sections 2.3, 2.5, 3.3 and 3.5 appear (to me anyway) to pave the way for a residential permit without the need to show tax. There even seems to be an opening for me to apply as a dependent of my wife, provided she can show an income of Baht 30,000 a month and two years' tax records. What I am trying to find is a Camerata-like individual who has managed to get PR under one of the other non-employment headings, and what I infer so far from you guys is that no one has heard of such a person. OK, fine. If the Room 301 people are friendly as you say, then the least I can do is pop in for a chat.

Let me help clear up any misunderstanding. While there are several different categories under which you can apply for PR (investment, working/business, humanitarian, expert, other). People have applied under each of these different categories and have been given PR. However, while it is not explicitly stated in the criteria for each, you will find that not matter which category you apply under, you - the applicant - will need to be currently working in Thailand (for at least the previous 3yrs) before your application will even be accepted by the staff at immigration.

Again, if you feel you should be able to claim PR otherwise, then speak with the staff at the PR room, they are the only people that you need to convince.

Edited by Time Traveller, 2009-08-16 20:01:53.

[auntyedna]

Time Traveller, on 2009-08-16 20:00:21, said:

... while it is not explicitly stated in the criteria for each...

And there we have it! Those good ol' discretionary rules "not explicitly stated" anywhere in writing, but plucked from nowhere and thrown in your face by the official facing you across the desk - the bane of every farang who has anything to do with the immigration and labour departments.

When extending my retirement visa last year, my statements and guarantee letter proving I had 800k in the bank were rejected because it was a current account. This requirement is not explicitly stated. This year my guarantee letter was rejected because it was dated the previous day. This requirement is not explicitly stated. And so it goes on...

Thank you Time Traveller - Message understood.

[Time Traveller]

Yes quite frustrating that the important details are left hidden. They mentioned to me that there is a points system for evaluating applicants before approving applications. Some of the things that are included are; length of time living in Thailand, current occupation, family connections to thai nationals, assets/income, etc. Each of these has a points value where max points maybe 5 or 10, for a final score out of 100. They mentioned as an example, someone with a bank deposit of 5million baht would get maximum points in that section, while 500,000 baht would get the minimum points.

I'm only guessing with this, but it might be that applicants without a current job may not be able to meet the minimum points required to pass the test. Hence their reason to "screen out" people without current employment - despite other factors that would normally be considered.

Anyway, who knows what could change in the future

[Artisi]

Time Traveller, on 2009-08-16 21:00:21, said:

auntyedna, on 2009-08-14 20:46:06, said:

... I've been back to the immigration website and under "Criteria and Conditions for Foreign Nationals Residential Permit Consideration", sections 2.3, 2.5, 3.3 and 3.5 appear (to me anyway) to pave the way for a residential permit without the need to show tax. There even seems to be an opening for me to apply as a dependent of my wife, provided she can show an income of Baht 30,000 a month and two years' tax records. What I am trying to find is a Camerata-like individual who has managed to get PR under one of the other non-employment headings, and what I infer so far from you guys is that no one has heard of such a person. OK, fine. If the Room 301 people are friendly as you say, then the least I can do is pop in for a chat.

Let me help clear up any misunderstanding. While there are several different categories under which you can apply for PR (investment, working/business, humanitarian, expert, other). People have applied under each of these different categories and have been given PR. However, while it is not explicitly stated in the criteria for each, you will find that not matter which category you apply under, you - the applicant - will need to be currently working in Thailand (for at least the previous 3yrs) before your application will even be accepted by the staff at immigration.

Again, if you feel you should be able to claim PR otherwise, then speak with the staff at the PR room, they are the only people that you need to convince.

You only need to convince Suan Plu immigration PR staff that you have sufficient credentials to be considered at the next level - immigration do not issue PR, this is a function of the government and its various departments plus tax, although important, is only one of the considerations along with numerous other points.

Edited by Artisi, 2009-08-19 07:21:16.

[auntyedna]

Time Traveller, on 2009-08-19 00:24:21, said:

...They mentioned to me that there is a points system for evaluating applicants before approving applications. Some of the things that are included are; length of time living in Thailand, current occupation, family connections to thai nationals, assets/income, etc. Each of these has a points value where max points maybe 5 or 10, for a final score out of 100. They mentioned as an example, someone with a bank deposit of 5million baht would get maximum points in that section, while 500,000 baht would get the minimum points.

Now if anyone on the inside track could lay their hands on that points list, we would have a very useful self-assessment tool to ascertain our chances before sacrificing ourselves at the Room 301 altar.

[stbkk]

auntyedna, on 2009-08-19 10:50:31, said:

Time Traveller, on 2009-08-19 00:24:21, said:

...They mentioned to me that there is a points system for evaluating applicants before approving applications. Some of the things that are included are; length of time living in Thailand, current occupation, family connections to thai nationals, assets/income, etc. Each of these has a points value where max points maybe 5 or 10, for a final score out of 100. They mentioned as an example, someone with a bank deposit of 5million baht would get maximum points in that section, while 500,000 baht would get the minimum points.

Now if anyone on the inside track could lay their hands on that points list, we would have a very useful self-assessment tool to ascertain our chances before sacrificing ourselves at the Room 301 altar.

I think that the whole thing has been 'tightened up' quite a bit recently from what I read here and on the Thai citizenship posts.

When I made my first visit to room 301 in 2006 I was very nervous about it all, thinking about getting lawyers to help etc. etc. I had just intended to ask a few questions but the lady in charge was very helpful and told me that as long as the documentation was in order, it was pretty much a formality. During the process of getting all of my documentation to their satisfaction, I was also given the impression that they would not let the application go through unless you had a very good chance of success.

I have also asked around quite a bit over the last few years, and have only heard (about 3rd hand) of one case where an applicant was eventually turned down. I don't have any more details of when or why, unfortunately.

Does anybody else know of any failures, and if so, what they failed on?

[Dork]

stbkk, on 2009-08-19 12:02:52, said:

auntyedna, on 2009-08-19 10:50:31, said:

Time Traveller, on 2009-08-19 00:24:21, said:

...They mentioned to me that there is a points system for evaluating applicants before approving applications. Some of the things that are included are; length of time living in Thailand, current occupation, family connections to thai nationals, assets/income, etc. Each of these has a points value where max points maybe 5 or 10, for a final score out of 100. They mentioned as an example, someone with a bank deposit of 5million baht would get maximum points in that section, while 500,000 baht would get the minimum points.

Now if anyone on the inside track could lay their hands on that points list, we would have a very useful self-assessment tool to ascertain our chances before sacrificing ourselves at the Room 301 altar.

I think that the whole thing has been 'tightened up' quite a bit recently from what I read here and on the Thai citizenship posts.

When I made my first visit to room 301 in 2006 I was very nervous about it all, thinking about getting lawyers to help etc. etc. I had just intended to ask a few questions but the lady in charge was very helpful and told me that as long as the documentation was in order, it was pretty much a formality. During the process of getting all of my documentation to their satisfaction, I was also given the impression that they would not let the application go through unless you had a very good chance of success.

I have also asked around quite a bit over the last few years, and have only heard (about 3rd hand) of one case where an applicant was eventually turned down. I don't have any more details of when or why, unfortunately.

Does anybody else know of any failures, and if so, what they failed on?

I too have discussed this question with several PR applicants (past & present) & all have said they have never heard of an application being rejected after it was accepted by room 301. Personally I have never even heard of anyone failing the interview. Has anyone else?

[perax]

Artisi, on 2009-08-19 07:19:47, said:

You only need to convince Suan Plu immigration PR staff that you have sufficient credentials to be considered at the next level - immigration do not issue PR, this is a function of the government and its various departments plus tax, although important, is only one of the considerations along with numerous other points.

In your case, I think you might be better off doing things the other way around...
1 - take note of the name of the senior officers in charge of that section of immigration (hint: check the org charts on the 3rd floor, or the names on the big offices just right of the stairs)
2 - get one of your influential friends to drop these a call, discussing your situation
3 - these will likely redirect you to somebody in room 301, maybe setting up an appointment with that old gentleman sitting at the table on the left in room 301 (officier in charge, forgot his rank)
4 - he will happily discuss your status and suitability for 'special' processing, and point you to one of the staff to handle the formalities.

It's easier than discussing things the way up...

[Working Joe]

I have just received word from my lawyer that the Minister has already signed the applications submitted to him.

This should include the 2006 batch. I'm not sure about the 2007 batch, though.

[jayboy]

perax, on 2009-08-19 10:12:24, said:

Artisi, on 2009-08-19 07:19:47, said:

You only need to convince Suan Plu immigration PR staff that you have sufficient credentials to be considered at the next level - immigration do not issue PR, this is a function of the government and its various departments plus tax, although important, is only one of the considerations along with numerous other points.

In your case, I think you might be better off doing things the other way around...
1 - take note of the name of the senior officers in charge of that section of immigration (hint: check the org charts on the 3rd floor, or the names on the big offices just right of the stairs)
2 - get one of your influential friends to drop these a call, discussing your situation
3 - these will likely redirect you to somebody in room 301, maybe setting up an appointment with that old gentleman sitting at the table on the left in room 301 (officier in charge, forgot his rank)
4 - he will happily discuss your status and suitability for 'special' processing, and point you to one of the staff to handle the formalities.

It's easier than discussing things the way up...

Once again I think this is unsupported and misleading advice based on uninformed guesswork.I doubt whether "special processing" exists or that calls from influential friends (unless say from a Privy Councillor, a current prime minister or someone at that level) help at all - and even then would probably not overrule established procedure.For the umpteenth time there are very clear rules on PR.Follow them and comply with the criteria and you will almost certainly be successful eventually.

As an aside many foreigners don't seem to understand what a genuinely influential Thai is.Why would a leading Thai of the type I describe above want to help an ordinary foreigner bypass established rules and procedures.It doesn't make sense.

[aaoaahq]

Working Joe, on 2009-08-19 17:44:06, said:

I have just received word from my lawyer that the Minister has already signed the applications submitted to him.

This should include the 2006 batch. I'm not sure about the 2007 batch, though.

Thank you Working Joe for updating us on the progress of the PR applications. It is very useful to receive this type of feedback as we are all waiting patiently for some news and avenues for realtime information is somewhat limited. An earlier poster mentioned that the 2007 applications would also be sent to the Ministry of Interior this week so I hope this might bring some finalization for both the 2006 and 2007 applicants. Did your lawyer mention whether the approval letters will be sent out soon as I understand that all the PR recipients needs to finalize the PR docs within 1 month of the Minister's signature?

Many thanks again!

[Working Joe]

aaoaahq, on 2009-08-19 21:37:18, said:

Working Joe, on 2009-08-19 17:44:06, said:

I have just received word from my lawyer that the Minister has already signed the applications submitted to him.

This should include the 2006 batch. I'm not sure about the 2007 batch, though.

Thank you Working Joe for updating us on the progress of the PR applications. It is very useful to receive this type of feedback as we are all waiting patiently for some news and avenues for realtime information is somewhat limited. An earlier poster mentioned that the 2007 applications would also be sent to the Ministry of Interior this week so I hope this might bring some finalization for both the 2006 and 2007 applicants. Did your lawyer mention whether the approval letters will be sent out soon as I understand that all the PR recipients needs to finalize the PR docs within 1 month of the Minister's signature?

Many thanks again!

My lawyer conservatively stated that I should get my PR permit 'before the end of this year', but his information about the Minister signing the applications came straight from the top people at Room 301, so I believe the approval letters should come very soon.

[perax]

jayboy, on 2009-08-19 19:32:11, said:

[Once again I think this is unsupported and misleading advice based on uninformed guesswork.I doubt whether "special processing" exists or that calls from influential friends (unless say from a Privy Councillor, a current prime minister or someone at that level) help at all - and even then would probably not overrule established procedure.For the umpteenth time there are very clear rules on PR.Follow them and comply with the criteria and you will almost certainly be successful eventually.

As an aside many foreigners don't seem to understand what a genuinely influential Thai is.Why would a leading Thai of the type I describe above want to help an ordinary foreigner bypass established rules and procedures.It doesn't make sense.

I think you are mis-reading what is written above. It's just a suggestion to pursue clarifications starting from the top, instead than slugging it out with the NCO that receives your paperwork. The NCO is just not in a position to help or to make decisions. I also remember cases of people with no tax records being allowed residency for services to the country (Sangha members, etc.), and 'services to the country' is a rather flexible definition.

In Thailand 'inluence' is a currency, and a currency needs to have a market to have value. Powerful people can "trade" face and prestige by, amongst other ways, helping other people 'of influence' getting what they want. Without knowing anything about the OP, I can only suggest him to take this in the same way a Thai "person of influence" might, starting from the top.

Edited by perax, 2009-08-20 15:51:54.

[jayboy]

perax, on 2009-08-20 08:50:16, said:

jayboy, on 2009-08-19 19:32:11, said:

[Once again I think this is unsupported and misleading advice based on uninformed guesswork.I doubt whether "special processing" exists or that calls from influential friends (unless say from a Privy Councillor, a current prime minister or someone at that level) help at all - and even then would probably not overrule established procedure.For the umpteenth time there are very clear rules on PR.Follow them and comply with the criteria and you will almost certainly be successful eventually.

As an aside many foreigners don't seem to understand what a genuinely influential Thai is.Why would a leading Thai of the type I describe above want to help an ordinary foreigner bypass established rules and procedures.It doesn't make sense.

I think you are mis-reading what is written above. It's just a suggestion to pursue clarifications starting from the top, instead than slugging it out with the NCO that receives your paperwork. The NCO is just not in a position to help or to make decisions. I also remember cases of people with no tax records being allowed residency for services to the country (Sangha members, etc.), and 'services to the country' is a rather flexible definition.

In Thailand 'inluence' is a currency, and a currency needs to have a market to have value. Powerful people can "trade" face and prestige by, amongst other ways, helping other people 'of influence' getting what they want. Without knowing anything about the OP, I can only suggest him to take this in the same way a Thai "person of influence" might, starting from the top.

Just gobblededook, I'm afraid although suddenly it's just about "pursuing clarifications".Ignore this advice.

Second para though confusing is really just affirming my point.A Thai person of genuine influence (and that would exclude for example some dime a dozen police general for example) is not going to seek to persuade bureaucrats to bypass rules for some nondescript foreigner (that means me and you by the way).There's no trade off.

Boring but best advice is abide by the rules.

[perax]

jayboy, on 2009-08-20 16:58:51, said:

[Just gobblededook, I'm afraid although suddenly it's just about "pursuing clarifications".Ignore this advice.

It has always been about that, it's only you that read these posts from a strange perspective.

And, again, unless you know the OP you cannot really assume or say anything about the level of people he/she might have access to. You migth well be, in your words, 'ordinary' and 'nondescript', but the OP might be cut from a better cloth.

[jayboy]

perax, on 2009-08-21 07:28:30, said:

jayboy, on 2009-08-20 16:58:51, said:

[Just gobblededook, I'm afraid although suddenly it's just about "pursuing clarifications".Ignore this advice.

And, again, unless you know the OP you cannot really assume or say anything about the level of people he/she might have access to. You migth well be, in your words, 'ordinary' and 'nondescript', but the OP might be cut from a better cloth.

Different rather than better.If he knows the PM, Minister of Interior or a Privy Councillor (much lower than that won't hack it) who is willing to intervene and overrule a tried and tested procedure, so be it.Older and wiser hands will know whether this is likely.

[auntyedna]

jayboy, on 2009-08-21 15:01:13, said:

Different rather than better.If he knows the PM, Minister of Interior or a Privy Councillor (much lower than that won't hack it) who is willing to intervene and overrule a tried and tested procedure, so be it.Older and wiser hands will know whether this is likely.

It's not done quite that way, in my experience, "intervening and overruling", that is. It would be a friendly phone call between the influential person and the Immigration Officer or the chairman of the key approval committee along the lines of: "By the way, I believe AuntyEdna's PR application is heading your way. I know her quite well. Good sort and quite deserving of PR in my view. Do bear this in mind when you vet her application." After that, the officer may "bear in mind" not only the merits of AuntyEdna's credentials, but the relative "head-heights" of himself and the influential person. It all helps.

Intervention and overruling in legal matters is another story, though...

[jayboy]

auntyedna, on 2009-08-22 09:09:10, said:

jayboy, on 2009-08-21 15:01:13, said:

Different rather than better.If he knows the PM, Minister of Interior or a Privy Councillor (much lower than that won't hack it) who is willing to intervene and overrule a tried and tested procedure, so be it.Older and wiser hands will know whether this is likely.

It's not done quite that way, in my experience, "intervening and overruling", that is. It would be a friendly phone call between the influential person and the Immigration Officer or the chairman of the key approval committee along the lines of: "By the way, I believe AuntyEdna's PR application is heading your way. I know her quite well. Good sort and quite deserving of PR in my view. Do bear this in mind when you vet her application." After that, the officer may "bear in mind" not only the merits of AuntyEdna's credentials, but the relative "head-heights" of himself and the influential person. It all helps.

Intervention and overruling in legal matters is another story, though...

It's "not done that way" for reasons which I would have thought were made obvious in my post.

It doesn't all help and your advice is poor.People like you always seem to think think results can be achieved in Thailand by the exercise of influence.Sometimes of course it happens but not I think to a significant degree in the processing of PR.The process within the Immigration Department is crystal clear and the hypothetical friendly phone call you mention will actually make no difference in the best scenario (assuming the caller has real influence, very unlikely - see previous comments) and counterproductive in the worst scenario.A supporting letter/s is sometimes provided from a senior Thai but certainly isn't essential.Actually when dissected your advice is meaningless.What does "bear in mind" mean anyway in a context when the rules are clear and transparent ?

[abdulrahman]

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It's "not done that way" for reasons which I would have thought were made obvious in my post.

It doesn't all help and your advice is poor.People like you always seem to think think results can be achieved in Thailand by the exercise of influence.Sometimes of course it happens but not I think to a significant degree in the processing of PR.The process within the Immigration Department is crystal clear and the hypothetical friendly phone call you mention will actually make no difference in the best scenario (assuming the caller has real influence, very unlikely - see previous comments) and counterproductive in the worst scenario.A supporting letter/s is sometimes provided from a senior Thai but certainly isn't essential.Actually when dissected your advice is meaningless.What does "bear in mind" mean anyway in a context when the rules are clear and transparent ?

Old chinese proverb:one hand wash the other,and both wash the face.
Where are you living?For sure not Thailand!

[jayboy]

abdulrahman, on 2009-08-22 17:02:04, said:

Old chinese proverb:one hand wash the other,and both wash the face.
Where are you living?For sure not Thailand!

The latest in a stream of commentators, none I would guess who actually hold PR, who seem put out that the process is governed by clear and transparent rules.

[camerata]

jayboy, on 2009-08-23 11:27:54, said:

The latest in a stream of commentators, none I would guess who actually hold PR, who seem put out that the process is governed by clear and transparent rules.

Exactly. I'd like this to be a topic outlining people's experience rather than just groundless speculation. For all those in a situation where they haven't been working and paying tax in Thailand for the past 3 years, I'd say go to Immigration and ask or contact a legal firm like Sunbelt and get them to ask for you. It's really not difficult to ask. During my PR process I had to ask many questions about various documents and I always got a reasonable answer.

One section of the process is your social contribution to Thailand. Some users on big expat salaries have told us Immigration said their salary was enough contribution. In my case, I had five or six character references, one from a deputy permanent secretary of a government ministry. When Immigration saw that one, they put it on the top of the pile. So presumably, references from important people are worth points in that section. As for whether some big shot can get you through the process when you don't qualify... first, why would he bother (unless he is a relative)? and second, what would YOU owe HIM after such a favour? Anyway, it's all speculation. The decision is made by a committee from different government agencies, so any theoretical influence would have to be brought to bear on the entire committee.

[abdulrahman]

camerata, on 2009-08-23 12:26:43, said:

jayboy, on 2009-08-23 11:27:54, said:

The latest in a stream of commentators, none I would guess who actually hold PR, who seem put out that the process is governed by clear and transparent rules.

Exactly. I'd like this to be a topic outlining people's experience rather than just groundless speculation. For all those in a situation where they haven't been working and paying tax in Thailand for the past 3 years, I'd say go to Immigration and ask or contact a legal firm like Sunbelt and get them to ask for you. It's really not difficult to ask. During my PR process I had to ask many questions about various documents and I always got a reasonable answer.

One section of the process is your social contribution to Thailand. Some users on big expat salaries have told us Immigration said their salary was enough contribution. In my case, I had five or six character references, one from a deputy permanent secretary of a government ministry. When Immigration saw that one, they put it on the top of the pile. So presumably, references from important people are worth points in that section. As for whether some big shot can get you through the process when you don't qualify... first, why would he bother (unless he is a relative)? and second, what would YOU owe HIM after such a favour? Anyway, it's all speculation. The decision is made by a committee from different government agencies, so any theoretical influence would have to be brought to bear on the entire committee.

As you maybe remember or not,Camerata,I asked some years ago about the procedure,and benefits,of PR.
My decision that time was not favourable: it's the same today.
Other people may have different opinions!I resent to be considered envious for something that I cannot attain.
About clear and transparent rules:in Thailand?

[camerata]

abdulrahman, on 2009-08-23 21:53:41, said:

As you maybe remember or not,Camerata,I asked some years ago about the procedure,and benefits,of PR.
My decision that time was not favourable: it's the same today.
Other people may have different opinions!I resent to be considered envious for something that I cannot attain.

I don't think anyone is considering you envious. Personally, I think the bar should be lower for PR, but I guess the reason it isn't is that it is the last major step before Thai citizenship (which seems almost assured once you have PR and your situation doesn't change).

Quote

About clear and transparent rules:in Thailand?

The discussion was about whether the normal PR process could be bypassed or subverted - meaning someone who wouldn't qualify under the points system manages to get it. I've been told it can by a lawyer, but I've never heard of any case where it was. As other people have said, if you can get your application accepted before December 31st, there's an excellent chance it'll be approved.