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[udon]

Swelters, stick a note in this thread whenever you update your blog.

[Vespa]

I find it amazing at how poor the “standard” level of craftsmanship in Thailand is.


On the most part it is really crap . While  you have Sheratons that have top notch labor and the finish product is as expected.


I think any company that can assemble a crew of competent skilled laborers such as these would have great prospects for the discerning owner who can now easily buy quality furnishings from places like Home Pro and have them installed properly.


May even be a very good business prospect.

[jayenram]

astral, on 2006-09-08 08:42:59, said:

Watch like a hawk at all stages.

The very best advice. I supervised my house construction 95% of the time. The w*rk done during the other 5% of the time just had to be knocked down/replaced when I returned.  

I did not use a contractor but employed a reasonably competent foreman.

[chownah]

Swelters, on 2006-09-09 15:21:00, said:

"..............
I heartily recommend wood frame construction because walls and roof don't store heat. There is and will be a lot of info on the heat problem, insulation, etc. in the blog. The trick is, make a quest to find and buy old wood houses  for materials. Most country Thai folk would rather have a masronry "modern" house anyway.

Masonry walls should be shaded at all times if possible.  Build extra large overhangs (eaves)...mine are mostly 1.5 metres.  Use strategically planted trees and shrubs.  Use retractable awnings and shade screens.  A shaded masonry wall will allow LESS heat to penetrate than a wood wall....also, if cool night air is circulated inside then the masonry gets cooled and acts as a big heat sink during the day so the room will stay even cooler.  Where I live the houses are typically masonry on the first floor and wood on the second floor.   When it gets really hot people take their mid-day naps on a thin pad right on the concrete first floor surrounded by masonry walls.

With either masonry walls or wood walls, there must be some insulation to keep heat from the roof from traveling down into the living space.  There are many different types of insulation and I won't discuss them all but I will say that from what I have seen the best in most situations is blanket insulation laying right on top of the ceiling.....but other people have other ideas as to what type of insulation is best for the roof/attic area.

Chownah

P.S.  Building wood houses is the biggests reason why Thailand now is almost completely deforested while originally it was almost completely forested.  Building wood houses is not a trend I would like to see promoted....and masonry houses are argueably better in almost every way.

Chownah

[Swelters]

udon, on 2006-09-10 06:11:32, said:

Swelters, stick a note in this thread whenever you update your blog.

Yes, there is some new stuff on the blog this morning, "Sawdust Memories". Thanks for the interest.
The  URL is http://www.thaivisa....u...gid=396&st=

Swelters

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[Gary A]

The Thai construction workers are great starters but very poor finishers. The biggest problem is that there is no pride in workmanship.  

[Swelters]

Gary A, on 2006-09-12 08:41:24, said:

The Thai construction workers are great starters but very poor finishers. The biggest problem is that there is no pride in workmanship.  

Not to be critical, but Thailand is a "relationship" kind of place in which outcomes are very much a matter of the way you get on with your crew.  "Construction worker" carries a sense of replaceable  machine part. which does not sustain Thai attention. But this is a good subject worthy of further reflection in the context of our project, thanks for introducing it.

[suiging]

Swelters, on 2006-09-12 12:12:28, said:

Gary A, on 2006-09-12 08:41:24, said:

The Thai construction workers are great starters but very poor finishers. The biggest problem is that there is no pride in workmanship.  

Not to be critical, but Thailand is a "relationship" kind of place in which outcomes are very much a matter of the way you get on with your crew.  "Construction worker" carries a sense of replaceable  machine part. which does not sustain Thai attention. But this is a good subject worthy of further reflection in the context of our project, thanks for introducing it.

Could not agree more. My construction guy has become a genuine friend. This was achieved by always keeping my promises to him and respecting his calls on subjects which he clearly understood better than I. Treat people as you would like to be treated yourself. Thai builders are not little green men from another planet, there are good and bad in all societies, find a good one, treat him with respect and you will get it back in spades ( pardon the pun )

[KhunDennis]

My wife and I bent over backwards to be friendly to the people building our house, giving them snacks and drinks. I made it very clear at the first, I wanted them to be happy with the conditions and  make a fair profit,and I in return, wanted a nice house. They set the price on everything and we did not quible on the money. All of your good will and intentions does not matter, if the people building the place don't give a dam about what they are doing. Like was said before, they started great, but the finish work was just plain bad and none of them cared.

[JASON THAI]

Has anybody got any good stories about building as I am due to start in feb and won't be out there until March ,the GF will be in charge in Feb and I am starting to get worried

[sramkok-pratum]

i totally understand why you complain

this from my real experince  the construction guy said my house will be done with in 6 months  but now almost one year it's only done by 60-65%. First i was gonna hire him to do house and 12 units apartment , but now i put my foot down if house not 100% done  no one start on an apartment. His works are so slow  now this project is bug me a lot.  i have no time to fly there and sort it out   ..check it out http://www.thaivisa....ratum/index.php?

[Swelters]

chownah, on 2006-09-11 09:54:03, said:

Swelters, on 2006-09-09 15:21:00, said:

"..............
I heartily recommend wood frame construction because walls and roof don't store heat. There is and will be a lot of info on the heat problem, insulation, etc. in the blog. The trick is, make a quest to find and buy old wood houses  for materials. Most country Thai folk would rather have a masronry "modern" house anyway.

  A shaded masonry wall will allow LESS heat to penetrate than a wood wall....also, if cool night air is circulated inside then the masonry gets cooled and acts as a big heat sink during the day so the room will stay even cooler.
Chownah

Q: A fully shaded concrete wall/slab 10 cm thick  is placed in an environment in which the surrounding air/radiant temperature varies sinusoidally with a low of 27 degrees and a peak of 35 degrees, the latter at 3 pm. The concrete density is 2 g/cc, heat storage .8 KJ/kg/deg K, face transmission coefficient 3 watts/square meter/deg K.

What is the peak temperature of the slab, and at what time of day? What is the daily cooling load per square meter to cool the peak temperature down to the air temperature?

Edited by Swelters, 2006-09-13 12:22:11.

[manjara]

I had an extension to our house in the North built by local workers. We added a kitchen and a bedroom with ensuite bathroom.
I drew up a plan, but it was fairly clear from the start that they didn't understand the 2 dimensional view. (I find this quite astounding, but my wife is the same)

The quality of the work was pretty atrocious, and I weep at the amount of wasted 'mai sak' (teak) that we went through.
I was working in Bangkok so I was only able to supervise on an irregular basis.

Things like sanding down a rough sawn edge or cleaning up before applying varnish - eh? tamai?

We bought sinks and a bath with the requisite piping and traps only to find that they installed them without. The traps were discarded, they had no idea what they were for. I foolishly bought mixer taps which just don't work (either all hot or all cold) - get individual taps where you have more control!

We explained to the electrician that we wanted the wiring to go behind the walls (typically they just run it down the outside), and he nodded in understanding (my wife explained in Thai). When we got back from BKK, he had run all the cables down the outside of the walls, then drilled very rough holes through the wooden wall so the cable went behind the wall next to the switch, then came back through again to connect to the switch. We also specified spotlights in the bathroom, but he had ignored that and just installed flourescent tubes.
My wife was incandescent, not very normal for a Thai, and phoned him up, shouting at him all kinds of obscenities (based on my limited Thai).  He never showed up to get paid!

Basically, my advice is to find somewhere that you like (e.g. the sheraton) and take your builders there, show them in real terms exactly what you want. Then stand over them every minute they are working and as soon as they make a wrong move, make them stop and show them pictures again.
It's kind of like training a dog, once they have done it, they are perfectly capable of doing it again, they just don't understand what's required of them and mere language and diagrams will not be enough.

I'm planning on building a house in BKK, but I really dread the experience. I know it will be hel_l and not turn out half as good as I envisage - but we have the land (her name obviously) so I have to try...

[chownah]

Swelters, on 2006-09-13 12:18:09, said:

chownah, on 2006-09-11 09:54:03, said:

Swelters, on 2006-09-09 15:21:00, said:

"..............
I heartily recommend wood frame construction because walls and roof don't store heat. There is and will be a lot of info on the heat problem, insulation, etc. in the blog. The trick is, make a quest to find and buy old wood houses  for materials. Most country Thai folk would rather have a masronry "modern" house anyway.

  A shaded masonry wall will allow LESS heat to penetrate than a wood wall....also, if cool night air is circulated inside then the masonry gets cooled and acts as a big heat sink during the day so the room will stay even cooler.
Chownah

Q: A fully shaded concrete wall/slab 10 cm thick  is placed in an environment in which the surrounding air/radiant temperature varies sinusoidally with a low of 27 degrees and a peak of 35 degrees, the latter at 3 pm. The concrete density is 2 g/cc, heat storage .8 KJ/kg/deg K, face transmission coefficient 3 watts/square meter/deg K.

What is the peak temperature of the slab, and at what time of day? What is the daily cooling load per square meter to cool the peak temperature down to the air temperature?

Let's analyze one square metre of wall surface:

100cm x 100cm x 10cm = 100,000 cubic cm @2gm/cubic cm =200,000gm = 200kg.

Since, from your data:  heat storage = .8 KJ/kg/deg K
then (.8 kJ/kg/deg K) x 200kg = 160 kJ/deg K..........this means that one
square metre of concrete wall will increase one degree Kelvin for every 160 kJ
of energy it absorbs.

Since, from your data:  face transmission coefficient = 3 watts/square meter/deg K
then in one hour the amount of energy that will be transmitted through the face
of the wall will be 3 watt-hours/deg K....and since 1 kilojoules = 0.28 watt hours
then the amount of energy transmitted through the face of our 1 square metre of
concrete wall will be (3watt-hours/deg K)x(1kJ/0.28 watt-hours)= 10.7 kJ/deg K......
This means that if there is a one degree K difference in temp between the ambient
air temp and the concrete temp and this is maintained for one hour then 10.7 kJ
of energy will be transfered to our one square metre of concrete wall.

So.....let's estimate the differences in temp between the concrete and the
ambient air for various parts of the day.  Let's start by assuming that the
concrete temp is at 27 deg C at the same time that the ambient air temp is 27 deg C.
Since the air temp varies sinusoidally and the overall difference in air temp is
8 deg C then each quadrant of the sinusoid will have a 4 degree C change in temp.
......so let's assume that for the 6 hours while the air is warming from 27 deg C
to 31 deg C that there is a constant demp difference of 4 deg C between the
concrete (at 27 deg C) and the air (at 31 deg C).
With our estimated 4 deg C temp differential from concrete to air, and
remembering that we get 10.7 kJ of energy for every hour we have  a one deg C
difference (one deg C difference is that same as one deg K difference) then
we will get (10.7 kJ/deg K) x (4 deg K) = 42.8 kJ of energy absorbed into
our concrete wall in one hour and since this happens for 6 hours we will get
42.8 kJ x 6 = about 250 kJ....and since it takes 160 kJ to raise our one square metre
of wall one deg C (remember that one deg C temp difference is the same as
one deg K temp difference) then the 250 kJ we actually absorb in those first
6 hours will raise the concrete by about 1.5 deg C....so it will be 31 deg C outside
and the concrete will be 28.5 inside.
Repeating this process for the second time interval when the ambient air goes
from 31 to 35 deg C the temp differential will be from 28.5 to 35 deg C which
is a 6.5 deg K difference for 6 hours so 10.7 x 6.5 x 6 = about 400 kJ absorbed
which will yield (at 160 kJ per deg) 2.5 deg C temp rise...so our concrete temp
will be about 31 deg C at 3:00 pm when the outside temp is 35 deg C.
Repeating this process for the third quadrant of the day we notice that the
ending air temp for this period is 31 deg C and our concrete is at 31 deg C
so we will use the first half of this period...3 hours and half of the
overall change in air temp for this period...meaning 2 deg K and so we get
10.7 kJ x 3 x 2 = about 60 kJ absorbed by our one square metre of wall
and this will raise its temperature about one third of one degree...
.......so.........our peak wall temp will be at about 6:00 pm and it
will be at about 31.5 deg C.

These calculations are all very rough and have alot of assumptions.  The way
I lumped the day into 6 hour segments and took the high temp to be the
driving factor for that entire 6 hours should tend to yield a higher
temp than is actually created so PROBABLY the actual temp of the internal
surface of the concrete wall will be less.

NOTE: This example is for a solid concrete wall of moderate density.
Walls made of hollow masonry blocks will have a lower face transmission
coefficient and will there for have a cooler interior wall than a
solid concrete wall as used in this example.

Further NOTE: A layer of insulation (even a rather thin one) placed on
the external surface of the concrete and using active ventilation
practices at night to circulate cool air to the uninsulated interior
surface of the concrete is the type of construction which allows the
thermal mass characteristics of the concrete to be used for its
best effect.  In the example analyzed above the concrete's thermal
mass characteristics are only used to simulate insulative qualities,
so it does not use the concrete to best effect.

I'm tired and will not check my calculations...if someone finds an
error please do let me know

[Rinrada]

...Wife got this one Built up in CM and ...mai peng....about £2K
We use it as a gate house and stay in it when visiting otherwise its for our gardners...
Also got our new Tabbi bann...No 50 Soi 10 May-On....Gen -na -Eagles

[KhunDennis]

This is a partial,list of some of the  things they did when building this house.
1 varnished over doors without sanding or taking off the labels and pencil marks.
2 walked on  kitchen ceramic counters with work shoes and got welding slag on them
3 cut the holes for switch plates and outlets to big on the really nice ceramic wall coverings we paid extra for.
3 put down cement patio and walks outside, then used it as a mixing board for  making another batch of cement. "All discoulerd with chiping lumps of cement.  That one really gets me.
4 I could go on and on, but I am giving myself a headache and reliving an unpleasant time, so I think I will just stop and try to forget about it.
Oh yeh, and driving in screws with a hammer so they bend and you can hardly get them out again!!!

[billaaa777]

I buy, design, renovate and sell condos in Pattaya. I have commented previously and will add a few more to address some of the other issues brought up.

I treat each one of my workers as I would want to be treated myself. Each morning I say hello and make a point of asking each one of them how they are doing. (It’s the only Thai I know to tell you the truth. I wish I knew more) I buy each worker a bottle of water every morning. Some of your labors are not even going to have enough money in their pockets to buy food or water for the day. I leave the food to the contractors except on special occasions, like when I am really happy with the work they have done.

If I have really special key guys, which I do now, such as my marble instillation guys, my carpenters or finishing painters around 5 o’clock I will show up with a big bottle of beer for them, or a soda if they don’t like beer.

I don’t know if it helps or not, but it makes me feel good and I think they appreciate it and give me that little bit of special effort. At least I get to see a big smile on their face and a real nice “thank you” from them. If for some reason I am busy and can’t get there by 5 o’clock I will here about it from them the next day and will have to buy 2 beers for them that day. It all in good fun and them seem to like joking with me about missing their beer, I wish I knew what they were saying, for all I know they could be calling me a jerk for not getting it there, but I don’t think so.

Next and this is important. A Thai contractor will NEVER buy anything that is not absolutely necessary to do the job. Any item that cuts into their profit is out of the question. So I buy it for them. I will provide a partial list of the items I buy most often.

A) Sandpaper- You’re paying me to paint who cares if the surface is prepared.
Drop Cloths - You’re paying me to paint who cares if the floor gets dirty, we will clean it up latter. (The number one thing that upsets me every job is paint on the floor. Now I hold back money from the tile/marble instillation just to make sure they clean up the paint)
C) Cutting Blades – Have you ever looked at the blades they use to cut you tile and marble with? It is solid steel and cost 80 BHT. And they use it till it chips every tile they cut. If it only chips half the tiles it is still good. Because, you’re paying for the tiles and they can throw those out before you get there. Buy them a diamond plated blade for each new job, you will be amazed at how much faster you job goes, how much nicer it looks and how much tile you have left over, as opposed to running to the store and buying more than you originally estimated.
D) Plaster – All most unbelievably they think if you put up concrete wall next to a finished wall it does not need plastered and to be sanded. The same goes for dry wall on the ceilings. They will only plaster over the tape, and not do a good job at that. And then when you starting painting you will end up with a two tone ceiling. Buy them plaster!!!! And make sure they use it liberally. (The number two thing that upsets me every job, not using enough plaster to get a matching finish with the finished wall or ceiling)
E) Electrical Cable – NEVER, but never let them buy the electrical cable for your job. They can really save a lot of money here by not buying cable that meets the appliances specifications. And you will be running to the breakers constantly. Some items that require heavy duty cable are: ovens, hops, water heaters, ceiling fans, and the cable that supplies your condo with electricity from the building.
F) PVC Pipes for the Electrical Cable: They will cut the walls and put the cable inside and then cover it up with cement. If you ever have a problem with that outlet you will have to rip out the wall. Buy them PVC pipe and make sure they use it.
G) Clean Up Supplies – Such as a broom, mop, bucket, sponges and clean rags. If I see them clean out a bucket that has had concrete in it one more time and then use that bucket to clean my tiles I think I will have a heart attack. The residue from the concrete previously in the bucket ends up all over the tiles and you would have been for better off never attempting to clean them in the first place.


Hope this helps a little. For all of you doing jobs yourselves attempting to save a little money and not hiring a foreign contractor these are just a few of the little keys to getting a quality finished product. It’s pretty easy to see not knowing just the little bit of information above and having to fix these problems will cost you more than having hired a reputable foreign contractor in the first place.

Good Luck, Bill

[Swelters]

chownah, on 2006-09-13 15:47:21, said:

Swelters, on 2006-09-13 12:18:09, said:

chownah, on 2006-09-11 09:54:03, said:

Swelters, on 2006-09-09 15:21:00, said:

"..............
I heartily recommend wood frame construction because walls and roof don't store heat. There is and will be a lot of info on the heat problem, insulation, etc. in the blog. The trick is, make a quest to find and buy old wood houses  for materials. Most country Thai folk would rather have a masronry "modern" house anyway.

  A shaded masonry wall will allow LESS heat to penetrate than a wood wall....also, if cool night air is circulated inside then the masonry gets cooled and acts as a big heat sink during the day so the room will stay even cooler.
Chownah

Q: A fully shaded concrete wall/slab 10 cm thick  is placed in an environment in which the surrounding air/radiant temperature varies sinusoidally with a low of 27 degrees and a peak of 35 degrees, the latter at 3 pm. The concrete density is 2 g/cc, heat storage .8 KJ/kg/deg K, face transmission coefficient 3 watts/square meter/deg K.

What is the peak temperature of the slab, and at what time of day? What is the daily cooling load per square meter to cool the peak temperature down to the air temperature?

Let's analyze one square metre of wall surface:

100cm x 100cm x 10cm = 100,000 cubic cm @2gm/cubic cm =200,000gm = 200kg.

Chownah's method is valid, though an initial starting poing higher than 27 and shorter time intervals would provide a slightly different result. This can be done (without staying up all night) on Excel with results shown in the attached. Note that Chownah is correct, the "heat sink" provided by the concrete has a cooling effect during the day (blue shaded zones). However in the evening the concrete with peak temp at about 7 pm starts giving back the day's energy and remains higher than 30 deg even as the night air temp cools. This means that the interior walls will be at about skin temperature so you cannot cool by radiating heat to your surroundings. So the concrete wall is a thermal liability at night (orange shading) when you want to sleep.

I've shown the following day with a 2 hour solar heat input (200 watts/sm) for two hours in the afternoon. This implies imperfect shading but is realistic for most real world situations. Note that the concrete becomes a more serious liability that night, most people would insist on aircon to cool it down. So you'd be spending your aircon bahts to cool solar heated concrete!

I agree with Chownah that shading is of first importance, nothing beats a nice tree. You can do artifical trees too, more on this subject and on other of Chownah's good points (eg ethical duty to discourage deforestation, insulation) are, or will be, made on the blog http://www.thaivisa....u...blogid=396
which I guess a person can subscribe to somehow if they are interested in following this subject, but I don't know how it is done.

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[Khutan]

simon43, on 2006-09-08 08:43:14, said:

....So, although I am very skilled in all aspects of plumbing and electrics, I had to 'trust' the workman and supposed experts with these areas.....

Simon;

You can get the electrical trades to do what is called in Australia a "Rough-In" only rather than complete the job. Therefore you can add the Grounding lines for the power outlets, and fix the light fittings and Power points to your satisfaction. You can also then use a better standard of distribution box than the more common wooden ones seen here.

If I remember the scale of your project finishing from an Electrical "Rough-In" to complete would have taken a great deal of time.

I hope it finished well.

Quote

....Has anybody got any good stories about building as I am due to start in feb and won't be out there until March ,the GF will be in charge in Feb and I am starting to get worried

Jason, at the end I was very happy with the work. There were just some annoying things that I had to live with. I have some pictures in the Gallery of the semi-complete product.

I will comment on the Cement wall we just had built, the result exceeded my expectations and the result was excellent.