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[Polarbear]

Sorry but there is no Thai consulate in Kota Kinabalu.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Polarbear, on 2006-11-18 01:17:10, said:

Sorry but there is no Thai consulate in Kota Kinabalu.

Yes sorry. No consulate in KK but short bus/boat/plane ride from KK to Thai consulate in Brunei which is fairly friendly. The easiest way from KK to Brunei is taking a ferry for 4 hours. I remember it being about 50 malaysian ringgits (approx 500 baht each way on ferry) Interesting place to visit also. Cheap flight from BKK on AirAsia to KK.

Brunei, Royal Thai Embassy
Lot 25251, Simpang 683
Jalan Tutong
Kampong Bunut
Bandar Seri Begawan BF 1320
Brunei Darussalam
Tel: (673 2) 653108 / 9, 653311 (Visa Section)
Fax: (673 2) 653032

Edited by CobraSnakeNecktie, 2006-11-18 01:53:01.

[SPALAX]

We all can be worried and sorry about these strange new rules. However let us not forget about what the thai citizens can experience everyday at our dear old farang consulates in Bangkok.

We can be ashamed.

No welcome.No information. A lot of papers and then NO...!

What can we expect from Thailand :

We get what we deserve

Edited by SPALAX, 2006-11-18 02:02:56.

[cclub75]

SPALAX, on 2006-11-18 01:50:27, said:

We all can be worried and sorry about these strange new rules. However let us not forget about what the thai citizens can experience everyday at our dear old farang consulates in Bangkok.

We can be ashamed.

Yes, we make their life VERY difficult to get a visa for Europe or US for instance. Not only Thailand. It's true for all asian countries. Anyway.

No, there aren't "strange rules".

It's just a matter of common sense and logic : you can not live full time in a country as a "tourist", with tourism visas and/or visa exemptions (the famous 30 days stamp for Thailand).

Go in China, Europe, ask for a 30 or 60 days tourism visa. Then go back again, to ask for another one, then... repeat in order to live there full time. It will be refused.

If you need to stay for a long period of time, you'll need a proper visa : O or B for instance.

Bottom line : "tourism" = short time. With the new rule, you can be a "tourist" in Thailand for maximum 6 months per year (actually 3 months every 6 months).

But... we know that Thailand can be a strange country... it means at that point there is no certainty, from a pratical point of view. Thailand has dozen of laws, regulations, rules that are not enforced, or partially enforced, etc.

We need to wait end of december/begining january.

[Jeddah Jo]

Just spent a lovely week in Singapore, what a delightful civilised country with friendly honest people. Arriving back in Thailand I felt a tightening in the chest because I knew all the rip-offs, over pricing, scams ahead of me (and that was just getting out of the airport).

It really does bewilder me why so many people are so keen to stay in this country. Especially if it is just to associate with the vermin that are commonly known as bar-girls.

My days in Thailand are certainly numbered. They are overplaying their hand big time.

[thaical]

As an issuer of Thai visas in Calgary, Canada, I constantly remind my clients that Thailand is run SUBJECTIVELY! This means that how the Thai official feels (mentally, physically and emotionally) has everything to do with whether they give a tourist what he/she requests. I always try to ensure that the client has the correct number and type of visa(s) PRIOR to entering the country - this is the only way they can be sure they don't need to travel to a neighbouring country to obtain further visas. Not surprised with the decision of the Embassies/C-G's in the neighbouring countries - working in these places gives them power - something most regular Thais don't often get to use!

Keep up the good work in reporting from LOS - your comments and articles have helped me immensely with information I cannot obtain from any other source (i.e.: the Thai Embassy in Ottawa or the C-G in Vancouver)
With very kind regards,
Francie Lorren
PA to the Consul-General
Royal Thai Consulate-General, Calgary, Canada

[konangrit]

h90, on 2006-11-17 09:12:52, said:

First I would think it is because you are American (as America does not like Mynamar), but as the Danish did not get it as well I can forget that explanation.

tropo, on 2006-11-17 21:42:06, said:

The only 2 left on your list are 2 cities in Vietnam. I suspect they'll be going the same way as Cambodia and Burma and stop servicing foreigners. They have incentive to make it difficult for people to stay in Thailand as they are a viable expat alternative.

They are THAI Embassies, they have no incentive to refuse Visas for the reasons suggested above. They work for the Thai government, not the government of the country they are based in.

[pap]

LITE BEER, on 2006-11-17 05:51:18, said:

Why waste time thinking about it? Just comply with the law.

Correct and invest somewhere else that you don't get grandfathered out. Quit simple really. Sad for those of us who selfishly love Thailand but that is what the Thais want. Its their country and they should be allowed to live with the pro's AND con's of their decisions. Of course if you don't understand the Con's then this arguement is irrelavent isn't it.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

tropo, on 2006-11-17 21:42:06, said:

CobraSnakeNecktie, on 2006-11-17 16:29:32, said:

tropo, on 2006-11-17 14:51:41, said:

h2oshore, on 2006-11-17 09:09:43, said:

So where does one go for a 60 day visa now. I'm certainly hesitant to spend the time and money going to another neighboring country only to be refused again.

Our options are becoming quite limited it would seem. Malaysia seems to be the only place left. They're going to be overrun with applicants in January. If they stop issuing TVs, we'll start seeing a mass exodus from Thailand.

No way. Lots of places to get single entry Tourist Visas nearby via cheap airlines like Air Asia.


KL
Penang
Kotu Baru
Singapore
Hanoi
HCMC
Vientiane ( and there is another place in Laos but I forget the name)
Kumming China
Hong Kong
Kota Kinabalu

Just strike off your list these ones which have always been hostile toward issuing tourist visa's
Manilla, Myanmar, Cambodia

Your list hasn't changed my original assessment.

KL, Penang, Kotu Baru and Kota Kinabalu are ALL in Malaysia right? If one changes policy, they all will.

Laos has started to shut the door already by stamping passports with: "this could be your last". Others have been told they will limit TV issue.

Hong Kong and Singapore are very difficult embassies for obtaining TVs and especially if you have come from Thailand, apart from the fact that they are expensive destinations. How much will a perpetual tourist be willing to spend in order to obtain a 60 day TV?

You've added China as an option. Is it? Will it be economical to fly there in order to obtain a 60-day stay? How much will it cost to fly there to obtain a TV and will they continue to issue them?

The only 2 left on your list are 2 cities in Vietnam. I suspect they'll be going the same way as Cambodia and Burma and stop servicing foreigners. They have incentive to make it difficult for people to stay in Thailand as they are a viable expat alternative.

Malaysia is still looking like our only economical TV friendly destination.

Hey not so quick.

--People are currently getting single entry tourist visa's in Singapore
--HK via Air Asia trip to Macau then inexpensive ferry to HK and singles are no problem and mulitple are issued if you prove you have money and a flight out
--Laos has said only two visa's per year
--Brunei via Kota Kinabalu on Air Aisa -- reportedly a friendly consulate
--Kumming is a friendly consulate and its a resonably priced flight and hoot of a place to visit
--Sri Lanka - despite the current violence there has been a good consulate to request visa's and again a reasonable amount of time in the air and airfare.

and no the policies in each of the 3 malaysian consulates are not going to be the same. They are markedly different now and have been in the past in regards to what they will and will not issue.

Malaysia is slightly cheaper than these above destinations but not by a great amount.


Depending on what Visa you can obtain in your home country it might be slightly cheaper to go back but otherwise its a reasonable amount of yearly expense to stay in asia on tourist visa's.

60K to 100k baht a year for 4 nice Visa runs/short holidays plus 4 30 day extensions.

Get out and see the rest of Asia!!!!!

[llothar]

LITE BEER, on 2006-11-17 20:51:18, said:

Why waste time thinking about it? Just comply with the law.

Because the law says that this is okay. There is no written time limit for how long you can stay as a tourist. Europe has this in there law, Thailand not.

So why are the people in the consulates doing this? Rassism against farangs? Revenge for some additional work they have to do? Stupidity? Well i think it is the last.

[sriracha john]

thaical, on 2006-11-18 03:29:50, said:

As an issuer of Thai visas in Calgary, Canada, I constantly remind my clients that Thailand is run SUBJECTIVELY! This means that how the Thai official feels (mentally, physically and emotionally) has everything to do with whether they give a tourist what he/she requests. I always try to ensure that the client has the correct number and type of visa(s) PRIOR to entering the country - this is the only way they can be sure they don't need to travel to a neighbouring country to obtain further visas. Not surprised with the decision of the Embassies/C-G's in the neighbouring countries - working in these places gives them power - something most regular Thais don't often get to use!

Keep up the good work in reporting from LOS - your comments and articles have helped me immensely with information I cannot obtain from any other source (i.e.: the Thai Embassy in Ottawa or the C-G in Vancouver)
With very kind regards,
Francie Lorren
PA to the Consul-General
Royal Thai Consulate-General, Calgary, Canada

It's always nice to see a post from "the other side of the desk"....

Thank you for doing so.


Have a nice day there... and hope it's not a too chilly a Canadian night....
brrrrrrr....

[samuislander]

I have lived and worked LEGALLY in Thailand for almost 20 years.
I have a company that pays it's taxes.
I pay my taxes, and get a refund every year.
The process is a pain to be sure, but it is a process and the law.
I have now opted for a multiple entry Non "B" visa because of the problem with the work permit expiring with the visa and during the process the 1 year visa can take 4-5 months to be issued which during this time you have to renew the work permit 4-5 times, I would rather go out on a short holiday every 3 months, when I come back get the work permit renewed. Also don't need to report address to Immigration every 3 months.
I have no problem with Non"B" visa's being issued AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A VALID WORK PERMIT
You must bring the work permit when you apply and have a copy of Every page signed and stamped.
Other documents are provided by my bookkeeper as required by the regulations.

Never a problem, never a question, and yes just got a new Non "B" last month.

I believe that the tourist visa rules are designed to prevent people from living and working in Thailand with out paying taxes. Or running a business or working for a business legal or not that does not pay the required Taxes or Social Insurance on it workers.

The moral is know and follow the rules and the process although strange sometimes and changes at times works.

[tropo]

CobraSnakeNecktie, on 2006-11-18 01:34:15, said:

Polarbear, on 2006-11-18 01:17:10, said:

Sorry but there is no Thai consulate in Kota Kinabalu.

Yes sorry. No consulate in KK but short bus/boat/plane ride from KK to Thai consulate in Brunei which is fairly friendly. The easiest way from KK to Brunei is taking a ferry for 4 hours. I remember it being about 50 malaysian ringgits (approx 500 baht each way on ferry) Interesting place to visit also. Cheap flight from BKK on AirAsia to KK.

Brunei, Royal Thai Embassy
Lot 25251, Simpang 683
Jalan Tutong
Kampong Bunut
Bandar Seri Begawan BF 1320
Brunei Darussalam
Tel: (673 2) 653108 / 9, 653311 (Visa Section)
Fax: (673 2) 653032

Sure, there are embassies all over the world. The point you haven't quite grasped is that all of the neighboring countries, if they will issue a tourist visa, have made anything over a single entry unobtainable (maybe with the exception of KL as some have reported success there in obtaining 2 -entry TVs).

It is simply just not economically viable to live in Thailand on single-entry TV's if they are going to be expensive to obtain. Even flying to Malaysia to get a single-entry TV is going to prove too inconvenient and expensive to make living in Thailand viable for many people. Why bother when there are more tourist friendly options available around the world?

As it stands, my best option is Penang. Let's go through the procedure for obtaining a TV there:

1: I've got to leave my home in Pattaya around 3-4am to travel by taxi to BKK airport. (cost approx. 800-1000 baht).

2: Fly to Penang and arrive there around 10:30 am. The airfare will probably run around 5,000. This will also depend a lot on availability and season.

3: Book into a hotel and rush down to the embassy to apply for my TV. I used an agent, so he picks up my passport. Hotel 1100 baht x 2 nights. Sure you can probably pull it off in one night, but I'm not into that kind of pressure to save one night's accommodation. Single entry TV is 1000, plus my agent's fee. That'll be around 500.

4: Fly back to BKK and taxi back to Pattaya. Cost around 1500 - 2000.

That's a total of 11,200 baht and at least 2 days work to get a SINGLE ENTRY TOURIST VISA....valid for only 60 days.

Add to that the 1,900 baht extension and 3 visa runs at around 2200 each. For a 6-month stay, that's around 20,000 baht, 5 full days work plus time down at the Immigration Office to get one extension.

This is assuming that back-to-back tourist visas will actually be allowed from next year and the easiest destination (Malaysia) will remain "friendly" in terms of issuing them.

Some of you will be thinking, "why does he pay 1,100 for a hotel in Penang, taxi to and from the airport as well as pay agent fees. The answer is basically I'm not a backpacker and require a little comfort, and will not bus it, and stay in a dive.

Good luck for anyone that needs to get a TV during peak tourist season in Malaysia. If most border runners are going to fly to Penang, getting cheap flights might prove difficult as well as finding cheap accommodation.

Edited by tropo, 2006-11-18 06:24:47.

[DrFisher]

"I believe that the tourist visa rules are designed to prevent people from living and working in Thailand with out paying taxes. Or running a business or working for a business legal or not that does not pay the required Taxes or Social Insurance on it workers."


That is exactly correct. Thailand isn't trying to keep people out, just trying to make them honest.

How long is long enough as a tourist?
I should think 90 days is enough time in Thailand as a tourist.

We all know most people doing the border runs are not being honest about their actual intentions so, I'm not sure why foreigners get angry with the Thai's when in fact the foreigners are breaking the law.

This is not our country; we are guests here and must follow the rules. The reason for the "crack down" is because, many of us don't follow the rules and it makes it bad for everyone. The lack of respect I have seen towards Thai officials doesn't help either.

[zxray]

I just returned from The U.S. Where I recieved a triple entry tourist visa, I did that By mail, took about a week. This may be the best option, for some, return to your home country, eveery 9 months.
Ray

[Krub]

DrFisher, on 2006-11-18 08:26:42, said:

"I believe that the tourist visa rules are designed to prevent people from living and working in Thailand with out paying taxes. Or running a business or working for a business legal or not that does not pay the required Taxes or Social Insurance on it workers."


That is exactly correct. Thailand isn't trying to keep people out, just trying to make them honest.

How long is long enough as a tourist?
I should think 90 days is enough time in Thailand as a tourist.

We all know most people doing the border runs are not being honest about their actual intentions so, I'm not sure why foreigners get angry with the Thai's when in fact the foreigners are breaking the law.

This is not our country; we are guests here and must follow the rules. The reason for the "crack down" is because, many of us don't follow the rules and it makes it bad for everyone. The lack of respect I have seen towards Thai officials doesn't help either.

Quite agree but I feel sorry for the guys who have the means to be permanant tourists (enough funds) but not old enough to go for retirement or not married to Thai.
There just does not seem to be any legal ways for them to stay.
If this is the intention of Thailand let's be it, I just think that Thailand would be better of to try and accomodate/regulate that category as this category is generaly regarded as to be welcomed.....
Monaco anybody ?

Edited by Krub, 2006-11-18 06:59:33.

[Krub]

zxray, on 2006-11-18 08:56:06, said:

I just returned from The U.S. Where I recieved a triple entry tourist visa, I did that By mail, took about a week. This may be the best option, for some, return to your home country, eveery 9 months.
Ray

Which Consulate/Embassy ?

[wilko]

What did she mean by "you have travelled enough"? - how long have you been in Thailand and on what kind of visa?

[sriracha john]

tropo, on 2006-11-18 06:22:24, said:

CobraSnakeNecktie, on 2006-11-18 01:34:15, said:

Polarbear, on 2006-11-18 01:17:10, said:

Sorry but there is no Thai consulate in Kota Kinabalu.

Yes sorry. No consulate in KK but short bus/boat/plane ride from KK to Thai consulate in Brunei which is fairly friendly. The easiest way from KK to Brunei is taking a ferry for 4 hours. I remember it being about 50 malaysian ringgits (approx 500 baht each way on ferry) Interesting place to visit also. Cheap flight from BKK on AirAsia to KK.

Brunei, Royal Thai Embassy
Lot 25251, Simpang 683
Jalan Tutong
Kampong Bunut
Bandar Seri Begawan BF 1320
Brunei Darussalam
Tel: (673 2) 653108 / 9, 653311 (Visa Section)
Fax: (673 2) 653032

< exhaustive details snipped >

but I'm not into that kind of pressure

Are you sure about that?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

JR Texas, on 2006-11-17 18:35:33, said:

Ned, on 2006-11-17 18:31:36, said:

When the changes were announced months ago some officials did say that foreigners in future would need to apply for proper tourist visas "in their home countries".

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to Ned and Maestro and others: Some are talking about the possibility of people leaving. I left before Thaksin's removal (too bad they refuse to remove his ideas underpinning the new visa/business rules and regulations as well). I think many expats have already left and know of a few who have and others about to.

"You have traveled enough, the visa is not available". Is this Thailand's new tourism slogan?

From China, the events in Thailand look weird........the people making the visa/business rules and regulations must be, as one of my friends in Thailand likes to say, "DUMB AS ROCKS."

They are either crazy as loons, in which case they do not understand the negative economic impact of their decisions, or they are sane and smart, in which case I have no idea what they are up to.

Oh well...........I am going to just watch the events from the outside and hope for the best. I feel sorry for all of the expats in Thailand who are trying to find solutions. Maybe the answer is to leave......there are great places outside of Thailand.

And Maestro, you really know your stuff. You said, quote:

With new first-time applications for annual extension of permission to stay with an investment of 3 million Baht no longer possible, it is becoming rather difficult to stay in Thailand long-term for all those foreigners who are
– not holding a work permit
– younger than 50 years
– not married to a Thai
– but rich enough to live in Thailand long-term on their savings

I would add to your informative list expats 50 and over who cannot meet the new retirement rules because their pension is not large enough to reach 40K per month income (average pension of US citizen is just over US$1000 now). Previously, many could have put 400K in the bank and received a long term visa solution. The govt. knew this, and removed that option.

Of course, targeting those under 50 will eventually lead to an expat community of elderly old farts in need of social assistance. For those of you who think the "visa bar" will never reach your neck and that you are immune because you are "grandfathered" in, think again. They may decide you are no longer an asset (more of a social burden). At that point, I think it is more than probable that the grandfathered laws will be abrogated.

And what will you face look like when you get that news? Like this: Good luck!

"in need of social assistance"

[JR Texas]

dr_Pat_Pong, on 2006-11-18 08:15:31, said:

Of course, targeting those under 50 will eventually lead to an expat community of elderly old farts in need of social assistance. For those of you who think the "visa bar" will never reach your neck and that you are immune because you are "grandfathered" in, think again. They may decide you are no longer an asset (more of a social burden). At that point, I think it is more than probable that the grandfathered laws will be abrogated.

And what will you face look like when you get that news? Like this: Good luck!

Quote

"in need of social assistance"

JR Texas (51, USA, in China and in no need of social assistance): Reply to Dr. Pat Pong: Please tell me why "in need of social assistance" is so funny. Think about it. Most old farts need some type of assistance........social (people helping them). They can be a pain in the ass....but we help them because they are often our relatives and we love them.

In Thailand many of the old expat farts will not have such assistance. Their young girl friends will no longer be around. The wife will have already run off with the money and the house. The wife's relatives will not give a ###### what happens to you.

And governments (expats govt.) may or may not assist. No doubt pension money will be dry to the bone by this time. Lots of people are losing pensions. It will not be a good situation.

Thailand may start to see the growing army of expat old farts as a liability and want more young farts. Laws may change. Grandfathered laws may go out the window.

I do not think this is so funny. I think it is something that should be taken seriously and discussed. It does relate directly to the visa rules and regulations.

p.s., sorry about my comments about "cleaning." Sounded too much like "cleansing" to me and had just watched Schindler's List on DVD....bad timing.

[tropo]

DrFisher, on 2006-11-18 06:26:42, said:

How long is long enough as a tourist?
I should think 90 days is enough time in Thailand as a tourist.

Why should you think that?

I know many people like myself that are perpetual tourists. How? We make our living using the Internet. All I need is a reliable internet connection and I'm able to be a tourist anywhere.

I haven't lived in my home country for many years, and don't need to.

Here's an interesting question. If I use the Internet in Thailand, should I be paying taxes on my trading profits?

I know one guy that lives in Asia that works for a large international company that thinks he is living in Florida. The Internet is an amazing thing. You should get with the times. Internet trading, Internet banking, ATMs...it all makes 'global nomading' a new reality.

If Thailand draws the line at 90 days, so be it, time to move on.

[tropo]

CobraSnakeNecktie, on 2006-11-18 04:45:51, said:

60K to 100k baht a year for 4 nice Visa runs/short holidays plus 4 30 day extensions.

Get out and see the rest of Asia!!!!!

It works out to over $1000 per year (for me) choosing the most convenient embassy (Penang), and 10 days work all up. I call it work because it has to be done. Sure, I will use it as an excuse to visit other countries and have a vacation, but it is a forced vacation in that it must be done.

It takes away my choice to go where I want to when I want to because they are single-entry TV's that allow 60 days if you don't leave before your sixty days are up. What say I needed to exit Thailand after a few weeks into my 60 days for some reason or other (shit happens). In that case I've basically wasted my time getting a visa and will need to start again. TV's are very inflexible.

It must be stressed that there is still no guarantee that it will always be possible to get back-to-back visas in the future.

[dsfbrit]

CobraSnakeNecktie, on 2006-11-18 00:31:59, said:

If you don't press your luck a person should be able to spread their visa's around these dozen locations without problems. There are other consulates in China also. Making four trips a year with reasonable expenses plus 30 day extension fees to these locations would cost approx 60K baht annually .(including 4 30 day extension fees)

If you can't afford that or a 40K baht trip back to your home country once every 9 months (for a triple entry TV plus extensions) then maybe your hanging on by a thread here. My recommendations were for someone who meets reasonable Non Immigrant income and savings levels.. I was not recommending this for someone who is really poor. Sorry.

I am not affected by any of this, but have sympathy for those who are.

Its the uncertainty of the situation that would make me leave Thailand.

Firstly, I would not be able to rent somewhere for 6 months in case I could not stay there.

I would not like having to fly to KL just to be told I could not have a TV and then have to fly someplace else.

What life is that. I would make an active decision and leave.

No bad feelings towards Thailand, but there really are places that I could stay with less hassle.

I would say that it is not yet known what really will happen until end of December(when the 90 days are up from 1st October).

So bearing in mind this is Thailand - these problems may just go away.

By the way JR Texas, I think you mentioned us old farts may become a burden on the system. Not sure how that could happen - as if we dont have enough money to renew our visas and no Thai kid then we will be booted out of the country - not much of a burden really!

Edited by dsfbrit, 2006-11-18 08:33:58.

[ourmanflint]

yeah.. I'm one of those guys under 50 with enough money to live on.. just! All I do here is spend money, I don't earn money from any Thai company or individuals, I want to stay here because it's cheap, friendly and well located in Asia. Seems there are a few here that think I should be happy with three months as a tourist and just go home.

It's a great attitude isn't it? "I'm alright Jack"