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Retirement Extension Monthly Income Requirements?

51 posts in this topic

ID: 26   Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Headgame said:

Isn't this issue very simple. 

Provide deposit or other proof of 65,000 B per month to TH Immigration.

Never been asked to qualify or otherwise characterize that monthly deposit.

KISS

Well, if you deposit B65k, that has to be net, does it not?

 

I see nowhere that you have  to deposit B65k or its equivalent to your Thai bank

Edited by smotherb
to add second sentence
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I asked the Danish embassy for a letter stating my income for use for emigration.

The embassy vantet a copy of my Danish tax return send to them.

They then wrote ( in English) that I have a income of xxx dkr. pr year which is taxable in Denmark.

The emigration used the gross income, and converted that using the exchange rate of the day.

They then granted me the extension without any problem.

But I expect it might be different from embassy to embassy what they put in the letter, and different from emigration to emigration how they use the rules.

 

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ID: 28   Posted (edited)

18 hours ago, elviajero said:

I do not think it is right for OJAS or ubonjoe to claim immigration are asking for gross income when they have nothing to back up that claim/opinion.

Well, you have nothing to back up your claim that Immigration are asking for net income, within their rules don't you?!!

 

And we are not just talking about pensions here. I am also in receipt of rent on the house in the UK I used to live in before moving out here and still own. I am not taxed on this rent at source and only pay HMRC the necessary tax after I have provided them with a tax return for the tax year in question. Are you really seriously suggesting that I might need to make some "finger-in-the-air" estimate of the tax due on my property rent in advance of receiving any formal notification of this from HMRC, for annual extension of stay income (or is it earnings?) confirmation purposes?

Edited by OJAS

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18 hours ago, gillespayet said:

"...Si le montant moyen de la pension brute de droit direct, tous régimes confondus, s'établit à 1.306 euros bruts mensuels en décembre 2013, la pension nette, elle, s'élève à 1.216 euros. Mais attention, il s'agit d'une moyenne du montant des pensions. Elle mélange donc tous les retraités qu'ils aient eu une carrière complète ou incomplète. Pour ceux pouvant justifier d'une carrière complète, cette moyenne monte à 1.730 euros mensuels..."

 

in France, the medium retirement pension is 1306 euros (before taxes)... ( 1 euro = 37 baths which means 48332 baths /month.

Actually less because of taxes...

After 42 years of full time work one can have 1730 euros/month which is 64010 baths/month before french goverment taxes.

 

That means a few french people can retire in Thaïland as long as I just read that 65000 baths monthly income is necessary...

 

As country where most people desire to retire, there are some as Marocco, Maurice Island, Portugal, Spain, and Thaïland...

As long as as the prices of food and beverages and housing become more and more expensive in Thaïland ( nearly as expensive as in France), it will be more and more difficult to retire in ThaÏland...As the money left after the second year (800 000 baths =21650 euros in a Thaï bank account) for the retired visa, it will become only possible to retire when you are wealthy but then if you are wealthy, why retire in Thailand?

 

The reason why people desire to retire in some other country than their own, is because their medium salary authorise them to live correctly as long as in their own country, after a life of full work, it has become impossible...

 

If my informations are exact, the minimum  salary in Thailand could be around 300 euros/month ( 11100 baths if 1 euro = 37 baths)

 

So retired people should be able to benefit of 5,85  times this amount...(after french taxes upon  the annual income)

 

Well, well...

 

 

I guess you are not aware that the 800,000 baht in Thai bank for a year or 65,000 baht per month can be a combo of the two. So if say the French med retirement is only 48,000 baht a month they could keep in Thai bank an amount that would bring the the average monthly income up to 65,000 baht.

Your comment about if people had good money they would stay in their own country not come to Thailand. Your opinion but not true for me. I lived in Boston, MA USA retired with good pension could live anywhere in USA or most of the world but got tired of the snow, cold and rather be in Thailand with beautiful women , warm weather great cheap food and many other perks.

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8 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Well, you have nothing to back up your claim that Immigration are asking for net income, within their rules don't you?!!

I didn't claim they are asking for net income, I said they are asking for "income", and gave an example of how "earnings" and "income" could be interpreted. As the language used ("income") is open to interpretation, IMO, it is safer to assume they mean the money received, which would generally be considered net income. IMO immigration want applicants to be in receipt of at least 65K.

 

If someone wants to give immigration a letter quoting a gross income of 65K that's their lookout. I would simple give a letter quoting an income of 65K which is what is asked for.

 

You are the one making a definitive claim that needs backing up. I am simply warning people not to rely on your claim and to play it safe.

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5 hours ago, Henryford said:

No they didn't. I never quoted any figures. THEY took the figures from tax returns i provided.

As long as I have been doing retirement extensions, and I have been here seven years, at Chiang Mai British Consulate or by post at the British Embassy in Bangkok, they have required the applicant to compete a form which asks for your address and a list of the pensions etc. , in GBP,  which you total up for the income figure to be declared on the Income Statement.

 

This is the current form required by British Embassy Bangkok. Previous forms have been very similar.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/573863/Pension_7_12_16.pdf

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2 hours ago, OJAS said:

And we are not just talking about pensions here. I am also in receipt of rent on the house in the UK I used to live in before moving out here and still own. I am not taxed on this rent at source and only pay HMRC the necessary tax after I have provided them with a tax return for the tax year in question. Are you really seriously suggesting that I might need to make some "finger-in-the-air" estimate of the tax due on my property rent in advance of receiving any formal notification of this from HMRC, for annual extension of stay income (or is it earnings?) confirmation purposes?

 

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

I didn't claim they are asking for net income, I said they are asking for "income", and gave an example of how "earnings" and "income" could be interpreted. As the language used ("income") is open to interpretation, IMO, it is safer to assume they mean the money received, which would generally be considered net income. IMO immigration want applicants to be in receipt of at least 65K.

 

If someone wants to give immigration a letter quoting a gross income of 65K that's their lookout. I would simple give a letter quoting an income of 65K which is what is asked for.

 

You are the one making a definitive claim that needs backing up. I am simply warning people not to rely on your claim and to play it safe.

You have conveniently omitted to comment on my second paragraph (included above)!

 

When it comes to rental income/earnings, would you not agree that "to play it safe" not only tax should be included in the reckoning but also agents' fees and repairs/maintenance expenses?

 

Indeed, if we were really "playing it safe" would we logically not need to go the whole hog and offset ALL our monthly outgoings both here in LOS and back in our home countries against our gross pension/rent income/earnings (so as to prevent any anomalous situations arising whereby, for example, those of us who are landlords were to pay contractors direct instead of getting our agents to make the payments on our behalf and offset our rent income/earnings accordingly)?

 

On this basis there would be precious few of us left who would then be able to meet the minimum 65,000 THB monthly income/earnings requirement for retirement extensions, I would have thought!

 

I look forward to reading your further comments in this light.

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Pointless exercise 'playing safe'.

 

 

How far do you go - take off all expenses and base it on what - your monthly beer bill, my monthly beer bill ?

 

 

Gross income is gross income and that is what is asked for.

 

I quote my gross pension, and director's remuneration,  before tax and NI.

 

When I had rental income I quoted it gross.

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My thoughts are that 65000 Bt a month is an impressive pension, the British National Insurance pension is about 470 GBP ! I think that gross or net does not apply to that.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

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On 3/12/2017 at 8:57 PM, elviajero said:

I agree that the use of 'income' and 'earnings' are often interchanged. We could argue semantics all day long, but I am here to help people and give the best advice I can.

 

I do not think it is right for OJAS or ubonjoe to claim immigration are asking for gross income when they have nothing to back up that claim/opinion.

 

I was basically suggesting that applicants do not include the words gross or net so that, in the event that immigration mean net, they don't fall foul.

 

When they ask for 800K in the bank they mean an actual amount of 800K. Common sense would suggest that when they ask for an income of 65K they want someone to be in receipt of that amount. The money in the bank/income is supposed to be the money the applicant lives on.

 

IMO they expect people not to be working and in receipt of pension/investment income that is usually paid net of tax.

 

As it stands all an embassy needs to provide is an amount that the applicant claims as their income.

 

My advice is to keep it simple and assume the worst case scenario.

Well I guess you can only give them the affidavit your embassy gives you anyway right?

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On 11/03/2017 at 11:00 PM, elviajero said:

Yes it is.

Thanks.

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Two pages of nonsense.

65,000 Baht gross monthly income is the requirement.

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On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 7:21 PM, gillespayet said:

"...Si le montant moyen de la pension brute de droit direct, tous régimes confondus, s'établit à 1.306 euros bruts mensuels en décembre 2013, la pension nette, elle, s'élève à 1.216 euros. Mais attention, il s'agit d'une moyenne du montant des pensions. Elle mélange donc tous les retraités qu'ils aient eu une carrière complète ou incomplète. Pour ceux pouvant justifier d'une carrière complète, cette moyenne monte à 1.730 euros mensuels..."

 

in France, the medium retirement pension is 1306 euros (before taxes)... ( 1 euro = 37 baths which means 48332 baths /month.

Actually less because of taxes...

After 42 years of full time work one can have 1730 euros/month which is 64010 baths/month before french goverment taxes.

 

That means a few french people can retire in Thaïland as long as I just read that 65000 baths monthly income is necessary...

 

As country where most people desire to retire, there are some as Marocco, Maurice Island, Portugal, Spain, and Thaïland...

As long as as the prices of food and beverages and housing become more and more expensive in Thaïland ( nearly as expensive as in France), it will be more and more difficult to retire in ThaÏland...As the money left after the second year (800 000 baths =21650 euros in a Thaï bank account) for the retired visa, it will become only possible to retire when you are wealthy but then if you are wealthy, why retire in Thailand?

 

The reason why people desire to retire in some other country than their own, is because their medium salary authorise them to live correctly as long as in their own country, after a life of full work, it has become impossible...

 

If my informations are exact, the minimum  salary in Thailand could be around 300 euros/month ( 11100 baths if 1 euro = 37 baths)

 

So retired people should be able to benefit of 5,85  times this amount...(after french taxes upon  the annual income)

 

Well, well...

 

 

I agree with you in that having 65,000 Baht a month, or 800,000 Baht in the Bank, seems rather high to retire here. Especially when an English Teacher can make less than that and yet stay here.

 

But the way I got it figured is that by the time you reach 50 years old or older, and you want to Retire then, you should have been able to save at least 800,000 Baht in a Life-time.

 

If you couldn't do that while you were working, then I don't see how you can do that when you are not working anymore.  So if you can put that 800,000 in a bank, and leave it their, it doesn't matter what your Pension is or what you choose to live on.

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ID: 39   Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Phuket Man said:

65,000 Baht gross monthly income is the requirement.

Indeed, this line is not one which ubonjoe and I have suddenly dreamt up for this particular thread, but is one which has been consistently repeated on here over the years dating back to the times when the likes of lopburi3 and Lite Beer were fulfilling the role that ubonjoe is now!

 

I personally have obtained no fewer than 7 letters from the British Embassy over the years confirming my income on the basis of gross figures, with each letter explicitly stating that the figures are gross, and never have I been challenged on this by Immigration at annual extension of stay time!

Edited by OJAS

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17 minutes ago, Phuket Man said:

65,000 Baht gross monthly income is the requirement.

Can you prove it?

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2 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Can you prove it?

More to the point, can you disprove it?

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1 hour ago, OJAS said:

More to the point, can you disprove it?

I don't need to because I'm not claiming it's gross or net.

 

The onus is on you or one of the others claiming it's gross to prove their claim.

 

 

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On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 1:43 AM, elviajero said:

Because 'the rules' ask for income not earnings.

 

Income is universally considered to be the amount received after tax.

 

Taxable earnings of 65K (gross) do not equal an income of 65K (net), which is the requirement.

 

As 'the rules' don't ask for the applicant to specify whether the amount declared is gross or net, I think it's better not to state either if the actual net income is less than 65K.

I agree I would not even try to list or explain or declare what is gross or net.  Tax situations can vary wildly from person to person and home country to home country.

 

  I do disagree with "income universally considered to be the amount received after tax."  I get quite a bit of income, some of which is taxable, some of it is not taxable (US Muni bonds or funds, some income is from my Roth IRA (tax free)).  And even if one gets income in month x of a year, until the end of the tax year and taxes are filed, one doesn't really know what the net income would be.     

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52 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

I agree I would not even try to list or explain or declare what is gross or net.  Tax situations can vary wildly from person to person and home country to home country.

 

  I do disagree with "income universally considered to be the amount received after tax."  I get quite a bit of income, some of which is taxable, some of it is not taxable (US Muni bonds or funds, some income is from my Roth IRA (tax free)).  And even if one gets income in month x of a year, until the end of the tax year and taxes are filed, one doesn't really know what the net income would be.     

My comment was in the context of the 65K income being requested by immigration.

 

If you ask anyone in receipt of a monthly income how much they receive they will, in most cases,  quote the actual amount they receive after tax because that's the amount that counts. You can't spend the tax paid on the earnings 

 

I would expect that immigration, when considering whether or not someone can afford to live in Thailand, would only be interested in the net income because that is the amount that counts. They can't spend the tax paid on their earnings.

 

Immigration are asking that applicants prove they have 780K pa income, or alternatively 800K in the bank. They will decline an application if the applicant only has 799K in the bank, so I don't understand why anyone thinks they would be happy that an applicant paying 20% tax (for example) on 780K earnings, only has actual income of 624K.

 

When they consider the combination method they want the shortfall in income to be made up by bank deposits to give a combined total of 800K. 

 

IMO they want 780K in actual income, or 800K in actual cash or a combination. 

 

My only objection was in the definitive claims from some posters that immigration ask for gross income when there is no evidence to confirm that opinion, and when it makes absolutely no sense in the context of considering income in terms of affordability.

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5 hours ago, elviajero said:

My comment was in the context of the 65K income being requested by immigration.

 

If you ask anyone in receipt of a monthly income how much they receive they will, in most cases,  quote the actual amount they receive after tax because that's the amount that counts. You can't spend the tax paid on the earnings 

 

I would expect that immigration, when considering whether or not someone can afford to live in Thailand, would only be interested in the net income because that is the amount that counts. They can't spend the tax paid on their earnings.

 

Immigration are asking that applicants prove they have 780K pa income, or alternatively 800K in the bank. They will decline an application if the applicant only has 799K in the bank, so I don't understand why anyone thinks they would be happy that an applicant paying 20% tax (for example) on 780K earnings, only has actual income of 624K.

 

When they consider the combination method they want the shortfall in income to be made up by bank deposits to give a combined total of 800K. 

 

IMO they want 780K in actual income, or 800K in actual cash or a combination. 

 

My only objection was in the definitive claims from some posters that immigration ask for gross income when there is no evidence to confirm that opinion, and when it makes absolutely no sense in the context of considering income in terms of affordability.

This is correct, but bear in mind it's a bureaucratic exercise to satisfy Thai immigration legislation. IMO, the IO only requires an INCOME letter from the relative Embassy that would meet the legislative requirement, and any consulate income letter quoting a figure will be taken and converted to baht. Fortunately, the letter  - with a red embossed seal - is regarded as providing the same level of disclosure as a bank book statement, and will be accepted as having met the legislative requirement.

 

It's up to the individual to provide the figures, and for the Embassy (in the British case) to have evidence to support the figures. In my case I have always used gross income from my tax return, and that has been the sum provided in the letter. As I said before, in 9 years the IO (in 4 different provinces) has merely used this £ figure to convert to Thai baht. Absolutely, never questioning it - and as an aside the fluctuating £-baht exchange rate is more of an affordability concern (to both me and the IO) than whether my quoted income figure is gross or net.  And that £ exchange rate and affordability concern seems about to continue for the next few years while the UK government <deleted>**s up the Brexit negotiations with the EU. 

 

 

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It's gross income at the Immigration office here in Thailand. But when I apply for a non O-A or a non O visa at the embassy in Sweden it must be net income  " A pension income certificate (ORIGINAL ENGLISH ONLY) with monthly income of approximately 18,500 SEK per month and after tax (65,000 baht) "  And 18,500 SEK after tax will be more than 100k gross for a normal person

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3 hours ago, khunerik said:

It's gross income at the Immigration office here in Thailand. But when I apply for a non O-A or a non O visa at the embassy in Sweden it must be net income  " A pension income certificate (ORIGINAL ENGLISH ONLY) with monthly income of approximately 18,500 SEK per month and after tax (65,000 baht) "  And 18,500 SEK after tax will be more than 100k gross for a normal person

The same if I had applyed at the embassy in Denmark.

That is the reason that I did not apply there, but first after I came to Thailand.

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On 3/12/2017 at 8:57 PM, elviajero said:

I agree that the use of 'income' and 'earnings' are often interchanged. We could argue semantics all day long, but I am here to help people and give the best advice I can.

 

I do not think it is right for OJAS or ubonjoe to claim immigration are asking for gross income when they have nothing to back up that claim/opinion.

 

I was basically suggesting that applicants do not include the words gross or net so that, in the event that immigration mean net, they don't fall foul.

 

When they ask for 800K in the bank they mean an actual amount of 800K. Common sense would suggest that when they ask for an income of 65K they want someone to be in receipt of that amount. The money in the bank/income is supposed to be the money the applicant lives on.

 

IMO they expect people not to be working and in receipt of pension/investment income that is usually paid net of tax.

 

As it stands all an embassy needs to provide is an amount that the applicant claims as their income.

 

My advice is to keep it simple and assume the worst case scenario.

I have an income (gross) letter from my embassy. At immigration they multiply that by the currant rate of exchange and if its over 800,000 Baht I get my extension.

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On 3/13/2017 at 10:35 PM, Phuket Man said:

Two pages of nonsense.

65,000 Baht gross monthly income is the requirement.

1000 % Correct... so simple yet, they are beating this thing to death! Apparently they have a lot of time on their hands.

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Something more radical, why not just keep 800,000THB in a Thai bank. 

I find living here just  give  Immigration exactly what they want, nothing more or less. A colleague of mine recently presented monthly income assets at immigration, totalled some 110,000 and they told him "you have too much money". 

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BANGKOK 24 March 2017 17:07
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