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Scotland's Sturgeon says: I can win an independence vote

416 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, vogie said:

There is no Brexit problem, the starting pistol will be fired today. Why should Scotland be a special case? And if we are hearing you correctly you want to leave the union and have Brussels dictating your government and laws, where is the indipendence there. As Reese Mogg said on question time the SNP would have to be known as the Brussels Nats Party.

Here we go again... Did David Cameron ask Brussels for permission to hold a referendum to leave the EU? The freedom that the UK has within the EU is far greater than Scotland has within our so called union of equals.

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2 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Why not suggest to your masters that they include the rest of the Kingdom next time? That'll guarantee success :smile:

My masters? You suggested earlier that I was the self-appointed goal keeper of the SNP, and now they are my masters?

 

For the record, I am not a member of the SNP. I joined in the mid 90s but I let my membership lapse for reasons that I can no longer recall. Not all those who support independence are card carrying members, and not all would vote for them after independence, assuming, that is, that they remain a cohesive organisation once their fundmental objective had been achieved.

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3 minutes ago, evadgib said:

...anyone seen my car keys?

Sorry no, I was out mowing the lawn......:stoner:

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5 hours ago, webfact said:

UPDATE:

 

Scottish Parliament backs referendum call

 

EDINBURGH: -- Nicola Sturgeon's call for a second referendum on independence for Scotland has been formally backed by the Scottish Parliament.

 

Full story:  http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/975904-scottish-parliament-backs-independence-referendum-call/

The terminology is misleading. It would not be a second independence referendum per se. It would be the first referendum on whether it would be in Scotlands interests to leave one badly managed union and try and join another nearly as badly managed union.

Of course it all depends on whether the badly managed union will offer its prisoner a pardon or make it serve the full sentence.

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On ‎28‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 7:26 AM, RuamRudy said:

32% & 36% in favour of independence in 2014, although that was before the lies and underhand tactics of their LibDem MP was revealed in the Court of Session. It would be interesting to see how they feel now, aware as they are, of the lies told by the Better Together campaign. One way might be to consider the results of the 2015 general election - the SNP share of the vote grew by over 27%, hardly a sign of hardening unionism:

 

Party Candidate Votes % ±
  Liberal Democrats Alistair Carmichael[8] 9,407 41.4 −20.6
  SNP Danus Skene 8,590 37.8 +27.2
  Conservative Donald Cameron[9] 2,025 8.9 −1.6
  Labour Gerry McGarvey 1,624 7.1 −3.5
  UKIP Robert Smith[10] 1,082 4.8 −1.6

 

 

Another way might be to consider the results of the 2016 SP election. A bit more recent than your data and, incidentally, after the resolution of the CoS action concerning the LibDem MP, so no need to wonder how they feel now. The vote is in.

 

What did these show? Well, in both Orkney and Shetland the LibDems were at 67% of the votes cast, with increases of 31% in Orkney and 20% in Shetland over the 2011 SP election. Possibly a sign of hardening unionism?

 

Strange how the more recent SP elections were not mentioned in your post. Then again, maybe not.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, dabhand said:

Another way might be to consider the results of the 2016 SP election. A bit more recent than your data and, incidentally, after the resolution of the CoS action concerning the LibDem MP, so no need to wonder how they feel now. The vote is in.

 

What did these show? Well, in both Orkney and Shetland the LibDems were at 67% of the votes cast, with increases of 31% in Orkney and 20% in Shetland over the 2011 SP election. Possibly a sign of hardening unionism?

 

Strange how the more recent SP elections were not mentioned in your post. Then again, maybe not.

 

 

Do the voters send different messages to Westminster and Holyrood? I suspect they do and it suits my own aspirations, but possibly you want to believe the UK is sacrosanct, and the residents of the Orkneys and Shetlands feel similar. Why would they not show any interest in the Tories, I wonder, and are they really so capricious that they would through a tantrum in 2015, only to come to their Yoon senses in 2016?

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Popcorn- check

Telly on- check

Chair reclined- check

 

I'm ready for the PMs Brrrexit delivery to the house immediately after PMQs :smile:

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5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Did David Cameron ask Brussels for permission to hold a referendum to leave the EU? The freedom that the UK has within the EU is far greater than Scotland has within our so called union of equals.

 

The UK is a sovereign state; the EU is an organisation of sovereign states.

 

None of the countries which make up the UK are sovereign states; it is the UK, and therefore the UK Parliament, which is sovereign.

 

Article 50 allows an EU member state to leave the EU. If and how a member state reaches the decision to do so is up to the member state concerned.

 

There is no such provision in the Act of Union nor any other UK legislation. 

 

You are comparing apples and oranges.

 

Of course, Sturgeon could hold her referendum any time she chooses; but without the authorisation of the UK Parliament the result would not be legally binding; it would instead just be a glorified and expensive opinion poll.

 

 

 

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There was a time Scottish Nationalists complained about being dragged into Europe. A shame de Gaulle wasn't immortal.

Sent from my iris 505 using Tapatalk

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18 hours ago, 7by7 said:


Of course, Sturgeon could hold her referendum any time she chooses; but without the authorisation of the UK Parliament the result would not be legally binding; it would instead just be a glorified and expensive opinion poll.

 

Only if it went against her. A result in her favour would almost certainly lead to a judicial review over the question of authorisation and taking it to the extreme a strong vote in favour could result in a Declaration of Independence. Wouldn't be the first one the UK has had to deal with.

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Polling the entire Kingdom would RTU them so far they'd wake up in Panama :shock1:

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ID: 414   Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, sandyf said:

Only if it went against her. A result in her favour would almost certainly lead to a judicial review over the question of authorisation and taking it to the extreme a strong vote in favour could result in a Declaration of Independence. Wouldn't be the first one the UK has had to deal with.

 I'm not convinced that a judicial review would be appropriate, or if it were it would find in Sturgeon's favour.

 

Remember; a judicial review wont decide if the decision of a public body, including Parliament, was right or wrong, only if that decision was made in a lawful way or not.

 

Under the Scotland Ac 1998, as amended by the Scotland Act 2016, all the powers of the Scottish parliament are devolved from Westminster and, in theory at least, Westminster could take those powers back at any time.

 

Not that I envisage such an event; the result would be politically disastrous for any Westminster government which attempted such a thing!

 

But that's irrelevant anyway. Scottish independence is a constitutional matter, and so comes under the remit of Westminster, not Holyrood. Remember that to enable the 2014 referendum to be controlled by Holyrood and for Westminster to accept the result a s.30 order had to be made in order to transfer the necessary power from Westminster to Holyrood. Without such an order, Holyrood has no power in this area and any referendum result would only be advisory at best.

 

This is interesting: Stephen Tierney: A Second Independence Referendum in Scotland: The Legal Issues

(Stephen Tierney is Professor of Constitutional Theory and Director of the Edinburgh Centre for Constitutional Law at the University of Edinburgh.)

 

A Unilateral Declaration of Independence? Always possible, of course. But a sensible or even the right course of action?

 

From the pro independence Autonomy Scotland: The idea of Scottish MPs unilaterally declaring independence is bonkers. Although, to be fair, the author does say that such an idea would not be undemocratic if the vast majority of Scottish people wanted independence; indicated by a large percentage of the electorate, not just those voting, in a second referendum voting for independence.

 

Then there is the question of who would recognise Scotland if they did declare UDI. It's almost certain the EU wouldn't as member countries with regions of their own seeking to break away, e.g. Spain, would veto it.

 

Difficult to join an organisation that doesn't recognise your existence!

 

Edited by 7by7
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One of the threats /bribes /inducements of the Bitter Together campaign was that the only way Scotland could remain in the EU was to remain in the UK.

Many of us saw that you be as much nonsense as the other London lies, but sadly many fell for it, a bit like the government backed lie of EU money being diverted to the NHS - a despicably cynical attempt to pervert the democratic process.

A referendum won on a basket of lies is nothing more than a travesty of democracy.

But Scotlands voters knew an EU referendum was coming up after the indy one.

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2 hours ago, sd44 said:


But Scotlands voters knew an EU referendum was coming up after the indy one.

To be fair; they didn't.

 

The Scottish independence referendum was in 2014; the promise to hold a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU was made in the Conservative manifesto for the 2015 general election.

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