twschw

Som nom nah!

and given that, I think we've had enough ladyboy threads in the gay forum.

If you wish to discuss the etymology of the thai word for kathoey please start a new thread in the Thai language forum discussing the Thai word specifically rather than some "urban dictionary" post.

//CLOSED//

I am not trying to re-kindle the tedious debate over sexual self-identity which has already been covered at more than sufficient length (so any  posts on that subject will be off-topic, as will anything about the technical differences between transgender and transexual!), but am simply trying to highlight the problems and dangers of categorising people as anything when those categories mean very different things to different people.

Despite a number of recent assorted threads on "ladyboys" none of them attempted to give any definition of what they considered "ladyboys" to be. The originator of the primary one refused to try to validate his poll by explaining what he meant by the term for the purposes of the poll despite a number of requests from a number of posters, and Thai Visa's apparently official position is that "ladyboys are not gay" and "the subject of ladyboys has no place in the gay forum", so maybe it would help to see what the term means in the rest of the English speaking world.

Clearly there are ladyboys and there are ladyboys, and the term covers a wide range, from the slightly fem gay male to the full transexual who has had the appropriate operations and is effectively both mentally and physically (at least outwardly) female. Just as all elephants are animals but not all animals are elephants, so all male to female transexuals could be called ladyboys but not all ladyboys are transexuals or consider themselves female - far from it.

The following are unedited definitions (apart from the Urban Dictionary, which had two pages of assorted definitions) from all the dictionaries/references I could find with a search for a definition of the word ladyboy, in which I have highlighted the relevant parts:

Wordnik/Wiktionary/Ninjawords: An effeminate homosexual man or one who adopts a feminine appearance, especially an intergender person.

Wikipedia: a male-to-female transgender person or an effeminate gay male in Thailand.

Babylon 8: kathoey, shemale, one who has undergone a sex change from male-to-female; effeminate gay male.

Encyclo: Ladyboy is British slang for a male homosexual.

Collins: a transvestite or transsexual, esp one from the Far East

Urban dictionary (edited): A boy or young man who dresses as a girl or wishes to dress or act like a girl, especially from the Thai culture.
Often used to describe a young, gay Thai boy. Sometimes used by Thai's as a general word to describe any gay boy or man.
Specifically a Thai transvestite, but can be used in general to describe any Asian homosexual.
The computer geeks that have defined this word previously have obviously never been with a real woman and there are several tell tale signs that any red-blooded male can use to spot a ladyboy. …. But only if you want to. The phrase, "I honestly thought they were women" does not cut it with me closet boy.
A feminine man, possibly a hockey player.


I can't follow the "hockey player" reference, but the remainder confirm what I said in an earlier post:

Without  any sort of definition of "ladyboy" (and in this case a picture doesn't  speak a thousand words) I am afraid the poll is meaningless.

The  term is so used (and abused) that it encompasses anything from those  who have had "the full op" (bits added and bits taken away) to those who  are simply "a bit fem", via transgenders, transexuals and transvestites  (many of whom are not gay at all).

Even in Thai the term  "katoey" covers much the same field, and slight differences in  pronunciation refer to very different beings. "Katoy", for  example, means post-op, while "katöy" means fem (or "ladyboy  short hair", as it has been described to me!).

endure, on 2010-09-02 03:10:37, said:

Maybe she felt that she wasn't welcome, as I've done for years (I'm TG , not TS).

I've read the forum for longer than I've had boobs, but I've never posted before or joined as we could see weren't wanted here.   Even though only a couple of people don't want us they make a lot of noise about it.   Maybe things'll change thanks to this poll.

FWIW transexual isn't the same as transgender, but most of us don't like being called trannies or trans-anything by anyone (except a doctor!). If  they've had the ops they're transexual and 100% "girls", and none of those I know'll be interested in anything or anyone here (no offence).   If not most of us are happy with "ladyboy" or "gay", even if some of you aren't.

There was a post here before suggesting re-naming the forum the Rainbow  Forum for LGBTTS matters in Thailand, or something like  that, but now that's gone. That would have been . Come on guys, we're not freaks or rejects any more than you are so don't make us feel we are.

I love these discussions, not, I hasten to add because of personal involvement, but because it shows a lot about TV members.
The huge number of posts about paedophiles with 15/16 year old boys, please people, understand the word before posting, a paedophile would be repulsed by a 16 year old boy, the term you are searchimg for is pederast.
Second for the total lack of knowledge about Thailand and its (behind the doors customs). Lots of posts about Nasty Farang coming here to corrupt etc etc,
Get real people, this problem has been here for a long time, way before pattaya had paved roads and phuket was trendy,  its only in the news because farang newspapers are exposing it. Most of the visitors to these places are Thai not farang. But thats Ok, we dont want to upset our hosts do we, lets just keep all the villification to those nasty old farang who come here and started all this.

metisdead, on 2010-07-25 15:05:57, said:

Odd, or not, we are in Thailand, and it is the Thais who ultimately determine what does, or does not happen here. Foreigners can scream bloody murder until the cows come home, but Thailand is for the Thais, it is their show, and until they decide to clean up the corruption, or change their culture, there won't really be much change.

I was under the impression Thaivisa had a minimum age before you can sign up.  Guess I was wrong.  

Male posters on this forum are not representative of the male farang population in the country.

kissdani, on 2010-07-03 12:01:48, said:

Not many people can claim to know what 60 odd million people are thinking. You are clearly the exception.

tonywebster, on 2010-07-03 08:59:18, said:

Yes i do. Had the reds accepted the offer of early elections and gone home (rather than staying to burn Bangkok down), for Abhisit to then retract the offer, there would have been widespread condemnation, and not just from the reds. Abhisit's credibility and any chance of election success would have been ruined.

The offer of elections i believe was genuine, and even if (as you think) it wasn't, the reds should have accepted it and shown Abhisit to be the liar you believe him to be. Red credibilty would have soared. Instead, by their stupid criminal actions, it plummeted. What a masterstroke!

F1fanatic, on 2010-06-28 22:02:18, said:

Puleeeze! Get real.  The man is looking for a home for his dog.  Either help him or butt out.  Neither he nor anyone else needs your sappy condemnation.  If you are such a great dog lover, why don't you "save" the poor mutt?  Maybe you can both get some therapy.

Ulysses G., on 2010-07-01 12:01:01, said:

Refreshingly honest, UG.  But I'm sure you're being a little too hard on yourself.  You're too nice a guy!

While I understand (somewhat) where the OP is coming from, 200 bt for a new ATM card sounds reasonable to me.  Awhile back, I got a new ATM card from BKK Bank and for the life of me, I don't remember what they charged.  It could have been 200 bt, but it was so insignificant (and not entirely out of the ordinary) that I don't recall anything about that transaction...other than the fact that I got my new card pretty quick and painless.  The BKK Bank ATM system has been quite good.  Never a problem.  Never a charge.  Unless I'm in a different province, then it's 20 bt per transaction.  Fair to me for the convenience.

bangkokburning, on 2010-06-29 17:20:51, said:

BKKB, it really wasn't necessary for you to explain each one of the examples that I cited.  I know the reasons why the laws are what they are.  I could have given you even more examples.  But you should have gotten my point.  I doubt any country in the world today has "total free flow of information."  Each country has their own reasons for censorship and as sovereign nations, they certainly have a right to restrict certain speech, internet or otherwise.  Farangs in Thailand just love to find reasons to bash the Thai's (as the OP is obviously doing), but often times, they're being hypocritical.  That's my point.  So if I understand you, you're saying that censorship is ok if you agree with the premise and not ok if you don't agree.  But if you don't agree, are you basing it on Thai "community standards," or your own?  Obviously, Thai community standards should take precedence in Thailand, but the farangs in Thailand seem to forget that.  Quite frequently, I might add.

bangkokburning, on 2010-06-29 11:20:44, said:

Hmmm, by "total free flow of information," I'm sure you mean 100% freedom of speech, no exceptions.  In the US, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater or say certain words while boarding a plane at the security checkpoint.  High ranking military officials cannot talk disparagingly of his/her civilian boss.  And you certainly can't post on your website your intention of assassinating the President.  Oh, it's safety and security you say?   On US national television, there are seven words which cannot be spoken.  Tobacco companies can't advertise freely on TV.  Gambling websites are technically illegal, even if it originates outside the US.  And of course, child pornography on the internet is illegal.  And so on, and so on.  

So tell me, what country in the world has "total free flow of information?"  If you really believe what you're preaching, then there should NEVER be any exceptions.