true blue

bendix, on 2012-05-25 11:34:59, said:

But others have grown up in poor families and experienced something different...

My father worked hard all his life and was NEVER on the dole.  Admittedly, my mother stayed at home to look after the children, but would take appallingly paid 'home' work to make ends meet.  Being in a low-paid, manual job - there was no company pension on offer to my father and there was no way on earth he had any 'spare' cash to save for a pension!  They were considered so poor that us children received free school meals - hugely embarrassing for us children...

My mother looked after all the money as she was far more capable this way, and gave my father 'pocket money' that basically covered his 'roll-ups' (cigarettes).  Yes, about twice a year he would go to the pub.... but we never went on overseas holidays, although we did go camping around England every year for a couple of weeks.  Yes, we also had a car (my father was a mechanic), but I still don't think that was a luxury - rather a necessity living in the SE with 4 children.

Its your inability to even understand that not everyone is capable of saving money the way you describe that upsets me.

When you accidentally take off your shoes before entering a supermarket.

You can get the dam_n rubber bands off plastic baggies without spilling the contents all over yourself.

When you order Cow pat moo and its 30 baht. You turn to the wife and say, "its very expensive here isn,t it? We can get this same meal in our village for 25 baht."

When you favorite answer is " Up to you "

Ulysses G., on 2012-05-20 13:10:37, said:

Yes, but there's the risk they'll ask for a donation.

In the rare times where I ... on foot, on bicycle ... get "trapped" in a potentially hazardous situation ... usually through some slight misjudgment on my part of the speed of on-coming traffic ... or, some temporary relaxation of my normal state of hyper-vigilant traffic paranoia due to too much sun, or just plain stupidity ...

I have found that making the "wai" gesture to the oncoming traffic has, many times, caused drivers (motosai, songthaew, tuk-tuk, whatever's on wheels) to slow down and let me pass.

I have a hypothesis about this which I'll share with you: I believe that recognition of the "wai gesture" is so imprinted in the Thai psyche through repetition in the socialization process ... throughout the life-cycle ... that it is possible that it becomes "virtually instinctual," processed more quickly in the brain, and recognized at a further distance than other gestures.

This hypothesis is based, shakily, I admit, on some of the newer evidence in our understanding of the different "multiple mental organs" which have evolved in the human primate brain for the processing of visual stimuli, which we now know are routed to several different areas of the brain: for example: studies have clearly shown that visual recognition of scowling or smiling human faces is routed directly to the amygdala (almond shaped set of neurons in the medial temporal lobe) for "instant-on" reaction long before the rest of the visual inputs are, later, combined in the neo-cortex into the "perceived visually consistent" inner construction of a "seen world." In other words that aspect of facial recognition (as others, such a baby's clear ability to recognize who is, and who is not, its mother early on) ... is innate, hard-wired. [1]

Now the "shaky" in this hypothesis (which I hope immediately causes your kee-kwai-detector to register seismic tremors) is the assumption that certain important cultural gestures, socialized to continually, beginning in early childhood, and used everyday in both home, school, work, and every cultural setting ... can also ... due to "brain plasticity" ... gain some magnitude of increased neural processing time, through sheer repetition and reinforcement. There is clear evidence of the post-natal development of many apparently "instinctual" responses: Dr. Steven Pinker:

"First, children spontaneously become fearful of a standard list of stimuli in the preschool years (strangers, separation, loud noises, spiders, deep water, the dark, carnivorous animals, etc.)."

However, there is a "leap of faith" here between post-natal acquisition of instinctual reactions based on some unfolding evolutionary sequence based on age, and this generalization to a specific gesture !

And, an alternate "challenge" hypothesis ... on which the blade of Occam's Razor should be sharpened in this case ... is that, after all, the "wai" is a gesture of submission, and we, as primates, are also hard-wired to react and respond to gestures of submission, as well as displays of dominance. Other possible challenges could involve people walking with a cane as if they had a leg injury and could only move slowly.

Fortunately, double-blind studies, where matched sets of farangs (assigned at random to use a "wai" or some other gesture of submission) are sent out to negotiate Nimmanheiman, or other choice traffic-death-traps, until external observers verify they are in peril from traffic whilst in the middle-of, or partially-crossing, the road ... and then: an analysis of the number of fatalities and injuries resulting, analyzed, in each case, looking for the extent to which variance in results might be significantly correlated with use of the "wai" rather than the "other" gesture of submission ... cannot be done.

Finally, the "devil's advocate" challenge to this hypothesis would be to have another group of farangs use some widely-accepted aggressive or insulting gesture ("giving the finger" ?) in similar situations and compare results.

And, gosh, we'd have to control for age, size, sex, mode of dress, presence or absence of backpacks ?

The closest I have come to traffic death here was walking, on the green light, on the pedestrian crosswalk from the Maharaj/Suan Dok Hospital side of Thanon Suthep across to the other side to get in my car (at that time, several years ago, I actually drove a car): a songthaew ignored the red-light, and all the hospital related signage, and nearly ran me down, and I was in a weakened dazed state from chemotherapy and radiation. How I wished, at the time, I had a weapon handy !

But, gosh, I forgot to look right, and "wai: must be my fault, after all: this is a developing nation

So I use a "wai," but I am not at all clear that will work for you, and, if you are injured after use of a "wai," I cannot promise to attend your last rites, or bring flowers to your hospital: the bike trip to buy the flowers, and then to the memorial service, or hospital ... just too risky for me, sorry

Now let us leave these happy sunlit meadows of Thailand as peaceful Buddhist paradise over-flowing with the milk of loving-kindness (karuna metta), and imagine a scenario where you are trapped in a dangerous situation in traffic ... so: you "wai" to the on-coming traffic, and, their slowing down, to let you pass across, causes a severe traffic accident with injuries, and/or fatalities: in that case (but you are fine): in that scenario: where is the best cheeseburger in Chiang Mai ?

best, ~o:37;

[1] if you are actually interested in this research, you might start here:

from Google via Chrome release:

https://www.google.c...iw=1280&bih=681

from Google via IE9 release:

http://www.google.co...0.0..0.0...0.0.

from Bing:

http://www.bing.com/...c=0-0&sp=-1&sk=

Quote

Nonexistent. Pedestrians are on the lowest level of the pecking order, even bicycles try to run you down.  

Could you give a few pointers on how she worked this ... a PM would do, don't want everyone in on it ... then I'll brief my wife and she can earn some pin money .......

siamdivers, on 2012-05-19 10:24:22, said:

Oh come on now, admit that you are the handsome man

Bangla is what it is, maybe a rip off, like Bourbon Street in New Orleans, but people flock to it, it's busy every single night. Anyone who says it's not has not been there recently. Even low season is bustling. I don't think there even is a low season in Patong any longer, not really.

And I beg to differ, Phuket's still the most beautiful tourist island in Thailand (IMHO). I don't know why Phuket is always slammed in this forum. I wouldn't live anywhere else near the sea in Thailand. If you judge all of Phuket by Bangla or Patong, you're just being mean-spirited and narrow-minded.

Great news, I hope that they can actually pull this off. It drives me crazy when these touts grab me, and I always bark at them in Thai "don't touch me!" and that usually does the trick even with the girls. But a public awareness campaign is always a good thing. Anything to improve the tourist's experience is good for the island.

Some interesting reading....

The Down-Trodden Rural Poor of Thailand


It's not quite what you think
                                                                                  



Here's what you need to know about the rural have-nots of Thailand. They are the richest poor people in the Third World. And they owe none of their affluence to Thaksin Shinawatra.


Fugitive former Prime Minster Thaksin, a billionaire wanted in connection with corruption and tax-evasion on a staggeringly egregious scale, has done a remarkable job of convincing the world that he is the champion of the rural poor in Thailand, and that such prosperity as the farmer enjoys is in some way due to him. Yet all of "his" programs have been in place for decades. His well-financed public-relations machine merely invented catchy new terms for them.


In Europe and North America, farmers tend to be affluent. A comparison is therefore not at all meaningful. But take a village carpenter in Thailand's northeast and compare him with a wood-worker in a small town in Iowa. To the American, the Thai seems impoverished, his house appalling basic, his expectations in life distressingly limited. But the Thai carpenter probably lives on family land rent-free, pays nothing to moderate the climate, produces his own vegetables, chickens, eggs and pork, and rides his own motor-cycle to his jobs. He's seen the American lifestyle on TV, and it's so far beyond the range of his experience, he doesn't feel deprived or envious.


Every village in Thailand was on the electricity grid long before Thaksin came on the scene, and virtually every village family has a refrigerator, electric rice-cooker, TV, radio and a couple of oscillating fans. Almost all rural households have a motorcycle, though it may be old and battered. In every village several families own pickup trucks. Animals are no longer used for farm work except in extremely remote corners of the kingdom. If farmers don't have a mini-tractor of their own, they rent or borrow one from a neighbor.


The "landless peasant" class exists, but is very small when compared with the Philippines, India and much of South America. The rich absentee farm landlord is almost unknown. Most farming families tend a small plot of land they own outright, mortgage-free (due to unscrupulous practices in the past, an outdated, paternalistic law prevents them putting up land as security with money-lenders, though they may borrow on anticipated harvests.) They sell a small cash crop through a co-operative. Their grown-up or adolescent children supplement the family income from jobs they hold in the cities.


Thailand, like the U.S., has a fallen-through-the-cracks underclass. While statistics*, as everywhere, have to be taken with a large measure of skepticism, officially 10% of the population is below the poverty line (12% in the U.S., 14% in Britain, 36% in Bangladesh). Of course, that means the poverty line for Thailand and no international comparisons are invoked. Poverty doesn't necessarily mean doing without TV or not being able to lean a beat-up old 100 c.c. Honda Dream by the door.


Unemployment in Thailand is 1.4% -- among the lowest in the world. Here it has to be cautioned that employment statistics are notoriously unreliable. Even in advanced countries, economists cannot agree whether to include the under-employed and those not actively seeking work. But unskilled work, if not well-paid, is not hard to find. My Bangkok apartment building has had a "security guard wanted" sign out for weeks.


During the dry season, many farmers supplement their income with construction work in the cities. But some prefer to do without extra luxuries and live the slow-paced, well-fed rural life. Two or three years ago, I found it impossible for several weeks to find a plumber to put in a new bathroom. Many "peasants" have become self-employed entrepreneurs and done well for themselves. Thaksin's policies had no discernible impact on the labor force.


There is no population pressure in Thailand, since each female, on average, gives birth to 1.6 children in her lifetime. That is well below replacement level, so the population will in time shrink unless immigration is vigorously promoted. Reduction in family size was achieved through education and the perceived economic benefits of smaller families, the same way it was reduced in Europe and Japan. This got started in the 1960s.


Wealth distribution in Thailand is no more extreme than in most industrialised countries. The poorest 10% of the people of Thailand own 2.6% of the nation's wealth. The richest 10% own 33.7%. In the U.S., the comparable figures are 2% and 30%, in the U.K. 2.1% and 28.5%. These statistics may not be wholly reliable, but distribution of wealth is unquestionably much more equitable than in China, India, Brazil or South Africa. Even isolated Thai villages, especially in the central plains, would seem very prosperous to rural Pakistanis and positively utopian to most Nigerians. Thaksin's much-vaunted "village revolving development funds" financing local enterprise had their antecedents in the 1970s.  


All main roads in Thailand are paved (close to First-World standards), and most secondary roads are surfaced, as are a good many of the tracks that lead into remote villages, even in the poorer north and northeast parts of the country. It was like this when Thaksin was still a bankrupt ex-cop.


There are slums in Bangkok, but you have to go out of your way to find them. Since almost everyone is employed, squatters on state land in the cities often live there by choice because it is rent-free. You certainly do not have to go out of your way to see red-light districts. Incomes from the sex industry (obviously denied to those lacking looks and personally) exceed factory wages fivefold or more. The blind and maimed can apply for state aid, but street begging is often more lucrative. One sets one's own moral priorities.


There was care at government hospitals and health clinics long before Thaksin came along with his fancy $1 scheme. Treatment is not world-class but it is medical care nonetheless. People in need of operations get them for small fees, and if they have no money the charge is written off. No one is turned away from emergency rooms at government hospitals. Doctors who went through medical school on state scholarships owe as  many years of modestly paid service in rural hospitals as they had in tuition.


Almost no Thais are unable read & write. Girls on average get 14 years of schooling and boys 13 years (note that girls are ahead). About 1.75 million post-secondary students (over 20% of their age group) are enrolled in universities (ranging from world-class to barely respectable), two-year colleges or vocational schools. Bright kids from poor families get government scholarships, so up-by-the-bootstraps success stories are so common as to be unremarkable. This high rate of upward social mobility goes back at least half a century.


Infant deaths per 1,000 live births in Thailand tallies 17, compared with 180 in Angola, 153 in Afghanistan and 6 in the U.S. Life-expectancy at birth is 73.1 years (78.1 in the U.S., 66.1 in Russia). HIV-positive people make up 1.4% of Thailand's population (0.6% in the U.S.)


With a population of 66 million, Thailand has 62 million registered cellphones and 7 million landlines. Service is as reliable as it is in Europe. One-fourth of the people regularly use the Internet. Thaksin's own company, which prospered prodigiously while he was prime minister, had one-third of the nation's mobile-phone customers. He sold the firm to an investment arm of the Singapore government (and paid no income tax).


Thailand routinely exports more than it imports. It is attractive for foreign direct investment. It therefore has enormous foreign reserves, and even though the country has few natural resources to sell abroad, its reserves, at $138 billion, are the 10th highest in the world. (Britain has $56 billion, Australia $45 billion). This means plenty of capital for employment-creating new manufacturing jobs, which entice rural folk seeking work in cities. The Thai currency is so strong that even recent political troubles have not budged it.


Contrary to a widespread perception, the country's main exports are not agricultural products, but cars & trucks, motorcycles & vehicle parts (made by foreign-owned subsidiary companies). Exported pick-up trucks, the biggest single-selling item, contain negligible imported parts. One Japanese manufacturer sources its world-wide production of one-ton pickups, including those sold in Japan, from its Thai factories. Machinery is another big export, as are components for computers and other electronic goods, textiles, garments & footwear, processed food and animal fodder. Way down the list of foreign-currency earners are rice, sugar and tourism.


Over the years the Thai government has routinely produced a trade surplus, a current-account surplus and (though not this year) a budget surplus.


Since 1960 (when Thaksin was 11) no "developing" country has exceeded Thailand in average annual per-capita GDP growth. The farmers are still poor by western standards, but they've had their share of this rising affluence, and they are better off than rural folk in any other nation on earth for which we reserve the term Third World.  ✹


* All statistics quoted in this article were independently cross-referenced from at least three of these sources: UNICEF, UNDP, World Bank, Asian Devt. Bank, IMF, CIA, WHO, Bank of Thailand, Thai National Statistics Office. In no case is a figure quoted from purely Thai sources. In addition, plausibility comparisons were made with the statistics of a number of other countries.

Here we go again, the forum misenthrope pontificating on the lives of people he doesn't lnow, let alone understand.

More than 30% of British working households have an income of less £15000/year -barely enough to keep a roof over their heads, food on the table or clothes on their back. Let alone save for personal pensions.
But of course the world seen through the prism of ignorance (with a twist of sef righteous misenthropy thown in for good measure) places the blame for poverty on the poor and their reckless behavior ( the evidence of which is strongly supported by polemic ranting but not supported by any of the professionals and charities working with the poor).  

There's a recession on, hundreds of thousands have lost their jobs, had their hours cut, lost their incomes - But of course it's their own fault.

Mr Misenthrope says so.

brit1984, on 2012-05-13 20:36:25, said:

I think you need to get out in the UK and meet the some of the millions of people living on low incomes who have absolutely no chance of saving for anything, let alone a pension.
I think you also need to understand that the first priority in deciding public spending ought to be what voters want to see their taxes spent on - There is broad agreement throughout the UK public that pensions and welfare are necessary - It is the government's job to deliver these.

I doug there is very much agreement at all to deliver subsidies to farmers (I doubt the public are told the numbers), there is little if any support for funding the EU and I doug there is much agreement to fight other people's wars.

If you time look up the data on UK household incomes -  you find in there the reasons why your idea that private pensions are viable for the whole population and that charity should fill the gap is ridiculous.

UK society has decided to take care of its old people (on the back of the experience of poverty that existed before state pensions) - It is a mark of the nation's civil and social values.

Now we need to make pensions fair for all.

This thread is a glaring illustration of why I spend so little time here among the wingeing moaning ever-complaining bigots and xenophobes - including the OP, who hasn't spoken a sensible word since the thread began, and who seems to think that if he keeps repeating himself, he'll suddenly enlighten us all with his BS.

These are the very people who, if they were still back 'home', would be flicking through their racist small-world tabloid newspapers and screaming at all the dark-skinned people 'if you don't like it here, why don't you go back to where you came from!?'

The irony of them now being in another country and daring to write off Thais as stupid is pathetic.

The only possible purpose of this winge-fest is the satisfaction of grumpy, unimaginative morons who wake up every morning wondering what they are going to moan about today. In Australia they call them wingeing poms. Here, the only difference is they are not all English.

pj