gdhm

Hi Crossy and other electricians or experts,

My PC is powered via a Toshino Surge protector PLUS GROUNDING and Wiring continuous tester. It works with 2 LED indicators (1 is Green and 1 is Red).

If ONLY the Green one is Lit then Ground connection exists and is GOOD Correct Grounded wiring.
If BOTH Green and Red LEDs are lit then there is NO Ground connection.  
(I seem to recall if Live an neutral are reversed then the Red LED comes on alone suggesting Ground exists but there is still an issue - THIS was when I found out Thailand has L and N reversed (when compared to UK).

Today I noticed whilst relocating the Toshino Unit that whilst the Green LED is brightly lit as usual that suspiciously the Red LED is DIMLY lit as well (it should be not lit at all).  I immediately plugged the Toshino extension unit into a house power socket via a 3 pin to 2 pin (Live and neutral only) adaptor to check things out.  This time as expected, with NO Ground connection at all, BOTH the Green and Red LEDs were BRIGHTLY Lit (The Red now being MUCH brighter than when the Toshino was plugged into a Grounded socket).  I tried the unit in several power sockets around the house.  All showed exact same results.


Basic Facts about Ground wiring in my house.

Large house built 3 years ago.  Electricity Authority told me I should use 30A (I think) wires from my street meter instead of the normal 15A (was it) which I did.

90% of lighting and power sockets and fixed appliances are grounded using a single Copper (or Steel copper coated) 3 metre rod 20 cms from house.  The clamp and rod top end where the wire is attached  was driven 5 cms below our lawn's top soil.  Having just exposed it to take a look I note it looks very dirty and maybe somewhat corroded but I have no idea what clamp liked like new nor whether contact is still good or not.  I did notice the rod end moves a little when I tried shifting it which I did not expect as 2 metres down into the soil.  

The Ground wire is 4mm or 6mm (not sure which) and not sure where electrician connected it into the wiring circuit.   I know he did not ground the outside (of house) lights and I had to chase him to ground some of the interior lights. I cannot tell if he did them all or just some.  Certainly all of the many power sockets, 4 aircons and 3 Shower Heaters and 2 water heaters (one used in kitchen and on for bathroom with bath  WERE ALL GROUNDED.

I know the power sockets were all grounded as I tested ALL power sockets when house first completed.  Not being an expert I used my Toshino PC surge protected Ground continuity Testing 4 socket extension unit.

My questions.

1) Do you believe I am correct in MY interpretation of the Brightly lit Green LED together with Dimly lit Red LED, that the Ground connection is not 100% (but pretty good and close to that). Likely Reason being;

a) due to the one Rod being insufficient length or partly corroded at ground wire clamped top end  or
could it imply a small/tiny current leakage to Ground in my houses wiring system .
c) do you believe something else is being indicated by the dim Red LED. If so what could be the problem being indicated

I did a VERY Basic touch test .  Namely, I dampened my bitten finger nails exposed sensitive skin area and touched my PC's metal case and its USB male metal plug end and I felt ZERO shock or tingling.  When I first came to Thailand and my wife's PC was in a house with no grounding I got nasty shocks off case and USB plugs and some electrical equipment. I also got shocks at this house when I purchased a PC style black style Power lead and found that although 3 pins that the Ground was not connected (dangerous to humans and equipment IMHO as no one would know without testing as lead ends are sealed).

None of this is happening at all at present in my house.

2) Is my one Grounding ROD sufficient for a large House?

If not how many should I have, how long  and should they be close to each other and daisy chained (if so how far apart  and daisy chained or Ground wire connected to each of the Rods) or situated far away (if so where)

3) Should the wire clamped end of the Ground Rod be above Soil level?  If so how far above would be recommended.

4) DO you feel the dim Red LED (as well as the Bright Green LED) implies a problem with the connection to Rod or Rod inadequacy OR could it imply a faulty appliance or, that  part of the house wiring circuitry has a problem (such as Live slightly touching a Ground Wire somewhere).

5) If you feel an appliance could cause the DIM Red LED then I can test that by unplugging all appliances (excluding electrical fixtures) to see if the Red LED goes out completely? I assume YES of course!.

6) If not 5) and you feel the problem could be part of the wiring itself then could,  one by one switch off fuses in my double fuse box units in an attempt to isolate the problematic part of the circuitry. Or is that a stupid (non-electrician or expert) question and switching off circuit fuses one by one would not reveal

7) I have a cheapish Digital Multi-meter than can test DC and AC volt levels, and ohms and continuity, and test something marked  A with a dotted line below a solid line to right of the A (is that AMP tester?). Anyway is it possible for me to use a multi-meter to test my Grounding for efficiency and adequacy and if so what do I do and what do I look out for in the readings.

I am of course seeking 100% grounding protection in all areas that have grounding (and certainly protection for very sensitive equipment like PCs).

May I ask two further questions not directly connected to above please.

8) I know Thailand (compared with UK) has its Live and Neutral wiring reversed in sockets and plugs.

Some power lead extension units and PC equipment, UPS to PC power leads seem to be wired for Thailand and some UK and some PC leads seem Thai one end reversing to UK the other (or I am now totally confused by it all trying to work out all the combinations   .   How important is it for Neutral and Live to be correct and not switched ..... COZ to be honest trying to work out which lead PC equipment extension units is wired UK or Thai system or a combination s a nightmare to say the least as some are made in Thailand and assumes Thai system but other items assume UK system.

Oh yes, just thought of one final question.  Is it OK to plug a surge/ browning protected PC UPS into a Surge protected Toshino extension multi Socket unit or is does this "doubling up"  on surge protection adversely interfere with UPS's or correct functioning of both.  (I'm trying to avoid multiple long trailing leads)

Many thanks everybody
Kind Regards
Dave

Hi all,

Really praying somebody can point me in the right direction to resolve a 3 year problem (ever since our new house was built).

Details:
We have 5 toilets: 3 upstairs, 2 downstairs (but only 2 adults and one child live in house)
The upstairs toilets all empty slower than the downstairs one.
One upstairs toilet on average takes 10-12 seconds to empty (it is only toilet prone to get gas build up and when allowed out emptying improves by a few seconds (until next day)
The other 2 upstairs take approx 6 seconds to empty
The 2 downstairs take approx 3 seconds

We have ONLY the 5 toilets (NOT Basins, kitchen sink,showers & bath) connected to ONE 1200 litre septic tank (make unknown) Form the Septic tanks's oulet pipe there is pipe (approx. 4 metres in length) which connects to a below ground concrete rings drainage container and that connects to another concrete ring container approx. 0.5 metres from the first.

The toilets are NOT connected with the western fitting system of drainage pipe, adaptor and wax ring to make seal. Instead they seem to be toilet sewage pipe into small hollow and toilet placed above hollow. It is cemented (or whatever)into place to form a seal and stop water escaping (all toilets are 100% water tight when used).


I will ignore deep into Monsoon season when toilets do not empty for an hour or so after rain has stopped (this I am sure is water table rising and filling concrete ring drainage containers and septic tank.



MY FINDINGS & SUPPOSITIONS.
At first I was convinced clogged pipes or build up of "stuff" in below toilet chamber/hollow was the problem
or
pipes leading to septic tanks going upwards causing them th be full of water all the time causing resistance to water leaving the toilets.
HOWEVER, I recently decided to drain the septic tank (never seemed totally full).  This turned out to be extremely informative in my search for resolution.   The second the Septic tank was drained empty the drainage men asked me to flush all toilets to see if any improvement.
The results were spectacular with all 5 toilets including the worst upstairs toilet empties almost instantaneously (seemed like 1 second).  When each toilet was flushed we all could here the water dropping into the empty Septic tank (could not see anything as black and behind a baffle board).

Now I am NO PLUMBER but this told me 3 things:
1) None of the pipes from each of the toilets are blocked or partly blocked.
2) Even if any of the toilet sewage pipework under the ground running around the house leading to the septic tank inlet pipe are not level or are slightly sloping upwards in places this make NO EFFECT to the emptying ability of all 5 toilets to the Septic tank.
3)The worst upstairs toilet has pipes travelling farthest around the house to the septic tank and yet it emptied IMMEDIATELY now.

NOW THE EXPECTED DISAPPOINTMENT.
All toilets worked perfectly for 15 days. During those 15 days the Septic tank was not full to its normal level and water could be heard dropping into it upon flushing a toilet (I monitored constantly).

AS SOON as I could no longer hear water dropping into the septic tank the emptying of the toilets slowed dramatically, but not as slow as just before we drained the Septic tank 15 days previously. As the water level rose to its normal height in the Septic tank (over the next 2 days) we were back to the usual poor emptying problems of pre emptying of the Septic tank.

I really do not understand what is going on.
1) Why are the upstairs toilets (with extra gravity drop) worse than the downstairs ones.
2) One upstairs toilet is directly above a downstairs one which is only 1.5 metres (at ground level) from the septic tank. It should be the best being so close and with a long vertical drop from upstairs

Thoughts
1) Would an inlet pipe extension pipe going down inside the Septic tank (like many septic tank designs) cause water pressure in the Septic tank to cause resistance to flushed toilet water?
2) Is it possible the Septic tank inlet pipe is lower than the outlet (therefore causing it to be slightly below the water level in the Septic tank? If this is the case maybe water has back flowed into the just below ground pipes from the toilets. This I am guessing may cause resistance as 2 of the 3 upstairs toilets are the farthest away from the Septic tank.  (but one is directly above a downstairs toilet that is MUCH better)

3) Why do most of the Septic tank designs in Thailand have the inlet pipe extending down into the Septic tank by about 0.25 - 0.5 metres below normal Septic Tank water level?
Will this not cause back pressure to incoming water from the toilets?

4) Logic (well MINE anyway ) suggests to me that PROVIDING the Septic tank inlet pipe is above the Septic tanks normal water level (and the outlet pipe  is at normal Septic tank water level, then when toilets are flushed there cannot be ANY MORE resistance than when the Septic tank was empty (with of course inlet pipe above water level).  

Advice received from 3 Thai Plumbers
Well I will give them one thing. 100% consistent. Ignore what I am telling them and "its how we always do it" mentality

I was told:
1) You should not have had only one Septic tank for 5 toilets. You needed 3, each close to the part of the house where the toilets are situated.
2) Due only having 1 Septic tank many of the pipes are too long for the toilets to push the water when a single toilet is flushed.
3) The pipes under the ground may well be sloping upwards towards the Septic tank, therefore the pipes are always full of water and this severely slowing water entering the Septic tank. The longer the pipe the greater the effect.

I pointed out to each of them:
1) ALL toilets emptied perfectly and immediately the Septic tank was emptied with the inlet pipe above water level inside the Septic tank. Therefore 2) and 3) could not be correct (unless the Septic tank inlet is under normal Septic tank water level).
2) One correct capacity Septic tank should work perfectly well if system installed correctly.  Having 3 separate Septic tanks situated near toilet groups should not be necessary.
3) I pointed out the second worst upstair's toilet is one of the closest to the Septic tank(1.5 metres at ground level), which suggests proximately to the Septic tank and short pipes has not helped.


Well I kept pointing these facts out to them and they kept saying the same things over and over again, despite the fact I had disproved THEIR theories and explained why. I decided not to let them loose on resolution

Observations:
I have noticed that the Septic Tank outlet pipe (outside Monsoon time) seems nearly all the time to be around 6-8 cms above the Septic tank normal water level.

This confuses me and makes me wonder if the Septic tank has a crack(s) in its sides/base.  
That would not surprise me because the builder in his infinite stupidity waited until late Monsoon to dig the hole and put the Septic tank under ground.  He did not place a concrete base below the Septic tank (as he should have) AND as the hole filled with water due to height of the water table in Monsoon his men tried levering the tank downwards into place(of course the water kept it buoyant). The result was they cracked the entrance to the Septic tank and had to wait until a week or so into the dry season. I insisted on a new Septic tank, but as builder broke due to bad costings for building the house he ignored me saying his remedy would be 100% effective. The remedy was placing the Septic tank 15cms lower into the ground and to make a new lid surround concrete ring on top of the entrance of the Septic tank so that could be used to insert the cover.  


One final piece of info Due to a 3 months bad back I have not been able (yet) to lift the lids of the 2 concrete ring drainage containers to see what the situations are inside, nor have I dug around the Septic tank to take a look at the inlet and outlet and gas release connectors and pipes of the Septic tank nor have a viewed yet, the pipe leading from the Septic tank outlet to the 1st concrete ring drainage container (to check pipe slope) and th pipe between the 1st and 2nd concrete ring container is lower than the 1st inlet pipe and slopes down to the 2nd.  This I intend to do when rains abate for a week or so.


My intention at present:
Wait until a month or so into the next dry season.  Get the existing Septic tank dug up and replace it with an 1600 litre tank. Then make sure the pipes in and out slope in the correct directions and make sure the inlet is higher than the outlet.  

HOWEVER, I am hoping some who understands Septic tank plumbing, drainage and toilet systems in Thailand, will be able to advise me on the (long sorry) contents my post and problems. I do not want replace the Septic tank etc. and find myself in the exact same position as I am in now and have been for 3 very frustrating years.

My thanks to all who have read this past.
Hoping someone can explain what I have failed to realize and can point me in the right direction for final and 100% resolution.

Kind Regards
Dave