Slip

DiamondKing, on 2012-05-10 11:47:03, said:

Nice post, nice empathy.

I hope that however old I become, and however many disappointments I have in my life, I NEVER become as bitter and jaded as your post implies you are.

Nobody, NOBODY, deserves to be slain in this manner for chatting with a guy on facebook - get real.

Great, yet another thread about whingers, by whingers and for whingers. FFS, go outside, enjoy the day, drink a cold one, step away form the keyboard. Try it, you might like it.

I think people in general don't like hippies.

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I'm not having a go at you, the level and intensity of answers you are getting is hard to keep up with, even for us that are just reading and not getting involved. You have a massive well of goodwill here, and I think you have some of the best posters on TV taking a great interest in what you are saying.  

I do suggest you need a bit of time to absorb what is coming through here, that advice is also given supportively.

OK, you live in the heart of a big city, and like big cities all over the world, they can be lonely, unfriendly and cruel places.

I know Onnut quite well as one my ex wives used to have a hair salon there. It might have changed since  last spent time there, but during my days I never ever experienced any racism or rude behaviour, but I admit that I did not take the buses. But I did spend a fair amount of time amongst Thais there, and like everywhere I have been in Thailand I found them, on the whole friendlier and more willing to help than most people from my home country.

But like any big city, most people were more concerned with their own personal affairs than worrying about some farang in their midst.

I now live some 20 kms east of central Pattaya, and even here the difference in the attitude by Thais towards me,as compared to down-town Pattaya, is chalk to cheese.

If you want to know what Thais are really like, the further you get away from big city environments the better, but even here, the Thais are great - most of them are better than the general class of farangs who have recently moved into the area.

They're polite, deferential when the occasion demands it, (i.e when I am a customer), usually very friendly and often offer to help when needed.

I can honestly say that after coming to Thailand since the early 70's and living here all told for almost 20 years, off and on, I have never detected any outright racism towards me and no Thai has ever insulted me or given me a hard time to my face. Neither have I ever been attacked, robbed or in any way been a victim of bad Thai behaviour. And trust me, I have been in some pretty unsavoury places at pretty unsavoury times, in a pretty unsavoury state. In fact, in my worst drinking days, when I have been in a really bad state, it has always been Thais who have come to my rescue and taken care of me.

I was talking about this very subject with a friend the other day, who has lived here even longer than me, and has also had a very similar, good experience of Thais. I think it is all down to how you behave, and how you react with Thais. The obvious behaviour 'pointers' are: never to stare at strangers; if you do make eye contact, always smile, and generally behave in a soft, polite manner, much as you might expect them to behave towards you.

But it is more than this, it is more instinctive, and if, deep down you don't really feel very friendly, the Thais will sense it.

Of course it goes without saying that the more Thai you can speak, the more you will be both respected and accepted. It never fails to astonish me how farangs can live here half their lives yet can barely speak a dozen words in very bad Thai.

If you were in England and a Thai who had lived there for 20 years spoke to you in such bad English that you couldn't understand a word he was saying, how would you feel about him?

Now I'm not suggesting that everyone should run to school and learn Thai in order to make the Thais more friendly, but I am suggesting that anyone who wants to interact in any meaningful level with the average 'Thai in the street' should at least make an effort to speak a bit of basic Thai, and more important than the extent of your vocabulary, is the clarity with which you speak it. The clearer your Thai, the more you will be respected. Go learn from another Thai - not from a school. Immerse yourself in Thai for a few weeks. And never, ever learn Thai from a dictionary with phonetic spelling - it will screw you up forever. Learn by listening.

These days, I speak pretty good Thai, (all learned from 'immersion'), but there was a time when my Thai was minimal. But what I did know, I spoke very clearly, and it never failed to impress any Thai person who I spoke to.

Frankly, as soon as a Thai hears you speak Thai reasonably clearly, their whole attitude changes and they accept you as part of the Thai community. It is almost as though by speaking Thai, you are considered knowledgeable on all aspects of Thai culture and thinking. This isn't necessary the case, but many seem to think it is.

Of course, there are many farangs who have no desire to learn Thai and they also have no desire to interact with Thais at 'street level. I knew a German, a retired banker, who, when I asked , wouldn't it be nice to hold a conversation with the street noodle seller when you buy a bowl of noodles, answered: 'I never have any desire to eat noodles or any other Thai food and I have no desire to communicate with anyone here. I have everything I need in my house and my driver and wife do all the shopping.'

Farangs are guests in an alien country with a culture so far removed from their own. It is screamingly obvious that it is the farang who should be the one who should make the effort to fit in and be accepted, rather than the other way round.

Thais are as good and as bad as any other race of people and the have their likes, dislikes and prejudices, just like the rest of us. I personally happen to believe they are actually better than most races, but that it just my opinion. But if you are having many problems fitting in and think that all Thais are racists, then with respect, I suggest it is you, and not them who is at fault as many other farangs do not experience similar problems.

Maybe you are simply not cut out to live in Thailand and maybe you would be happier somewhere else.

In the last 24-hours, this story, reported in two threads on Thaivisa, has gathered over 38,000 views. Few subjects have done so in such a short time.

I understand from Thai friends that the story similarly dominates the Thai broadcast news.

The surprising level of attention appears to belie a much deeper, greater issue than a farang being assaulted on the BTS. It seems to have ignited a cultural clash between Thais and farang, exposing the huge gap existing between what Thais view as civilized behavior and farangs view as civilized behavior, in context to the same event.

Even Thais will concede that Thai cultural values make Thai people quite different from other people around the world, even from other Asians within close proximity you would think them more similar than not.  If farang have been unaware of the cultural chasm in which they live and work here, this event is sure to awaken them.

This sort of spirited discourse might end up being healthy for both Thais and farang ... for Thais to understand just how far removed what they consider civil behavior is from that of much of the world in which they (presumably) want to be a part ... and for farang (tourists, retirees, investors, whatever) to understand what is the real Thailand, not the Thailand as sentimentally portrayed by the Tourism Authority of Thailand's marketing campaign.

An event similar to this occurred in LA, which polarized much of the LA community along racial lines, precipitating widespread riots, mayhem, arson ... a video depicting the beating of a black man, Rodney King, by LA cops in 1991.

Fast forward to 2012 ... this video, submitted by a Thai by-stander and witness to a similarly disturbing event, seems to be bringing to the surface great pent-up frustrations. even animosities. by both farang and Thais.

THAT, to me, seems to be the developing story here.

HeavyDrinker, on 2012-03-23 15:10:45, said:

Perhaps it was liver failure.
Or bleeding stomach haemorage.

I doubt it was the consequence of casual drinking of a Saturday night, taking one for the road and finding it a longer road than first thought...

There's some people suffer much worse from drink than you or I

SC

EDIT: You might get more constructive help on this sub-forum
http://www.thaivisa....too-much-forum/
though the problem seems more of a hospital bill problem than a drink problem, and the mention of the drink only causes people to lose sympathy and display prejudice.

Kunash,

Seems like you've asked a legitimate question about a family matter but are instead being judged for giving money to your in-laws.

I don't think 5000 baht is a big deal. You're giving it to your wife for her to distribute as she pleases. Its just not a big issue. I'm not sure why people are freaking out about it but I wouldn't be troubled by them.

I was married to a girl from Korat when I was very young and my wifes sister was married to a marine who was very unpleasant. He didn't like that I made decisions for myself and didn't like that I wouldn't enter into business ventures with him so he became downright nasty towards me and my wife. My response was to exhibit profound indifference towards him. I just behaved as though he didn't exist. I refused offers to join he and my sister in-law for dinner or any kind of outing etc. I was never unpleasant towards him, just... indifferent.

Don't feel threatened by his position in the family. Just keep your wife happy such as is possible. Show her some fun and enjoy your time with her and don't be concerned even a little by family machinations outside of your household. You married her not them. The reason you supply some assistance to the in-laws is to keep your wife happy if you think about it.

Happy wife = Happy life

Na Mah

Haven't bothered to read the no-doubt mind-numbing bickering.  At this point, I just hope that if it means a red/yellow conflict-free year, then I hope we have another $@#%^@# flood.

Oberkommando, on 2012-02-11 12:35:43, said:

"Americans, Brits, the Spanish, the French, the Germans, all nationalities are irresponsible when it comes to looking after animals, all of my years living on this planet witnessing human animal cruelty and disgusting behaviour towards animals is why I commented." It is NOT a Thailand-specific problem. For you to suggest otherwise, is the epitome of ignorance.

Furthermore, what I said is very relevant, when you make a bigoted statement like: "if Thais cannot be taught to behave". How arrogant and condescending of you to say something like that. You spend a lot of your time trying to get Thais to behave do you? I despair for those Thais who are unfortunate enough to make your acquaintance, if that's the way you view them - basically like unruly children. I bet you wai and yim like the proper song-naa you are.

Your statement tells me everything I need to know about you. You seem to have a constant anti-Thai agenda, which makes the fact you've been here for 27 years all the more confusing. According to you it's a nation of people that can't behave.

Also, 27 years or 27 minutes IDGAF. You talk like that, you're going to get called out on it. Equally so, if you say disparaging things about Thais like that, I'm going to stick up for them seeing as they're not here to defend themselves. If that makes me an 'apologist' then I'm proud to be one.

How convenient it is for you to have an anonymous platform to judge and criticize Thais in a forum they'll never see.

Tell me something, do you speak to the Thais you must know like that? Do you speak to Thais in authority you know like that? You get pulled by a BiB looking for some tea money, do you tell them they need to be taught how to behave? Yeah, I didn't think so. If they knew how you talked about them and fully understood how you disparage them here, what would happen? I'd really like to let some of the Thais you know and iteract with on a daily basis read and understand how you view them as so greatly inferior. It'd make for a very interesting scene.

I'll repeat myself. Animal cruelty exists everywhere and is equally (if not more) prevalent in the Western world than it is here. The only difference is in Thailand, it's unlikely you'll ever be prosecuted for it.

As with all "well-behaved" countries around the world, Thailand has its own numerous examples of people doing right by animals. The elephant sanctuaries of the North, the park warden that commited suicide over land encroachment, the monkey schools of the South, the banning of elephants from BKK. I could go on.

You watch a video of an underground dog fight, which is only really prevalent in Western culture and you sit there and tell me it's not barbaric and cruel. Undergound dog fighting is on the increase in both Britian and America. Then there's circuses, zoos, farms, barbaric abbatoirs (like the one shut down in Sydney this week) there are multitudinous examples of severe animal cruelty outside of Thailand, some of which Western governments are happliy complicit in. The fact that the average Thai has less of a conscience about the treatment of animals does not make them a nation full of people who can't behave as impeccably as you.

Lastly, the headline "Man killed by 4 dogs" isn't any less surprising in Thailand, than it would be in any western country you could name. People are mauled constantly, it's in British papers every other day. It's wrong and digusting of you to infer that a problem like this can only happen here as this country's people can't control their animals as they themselves can't be "taught to behave".

That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while.

Fact - This could have easily happend in your own country of origin and it'd likely just raise an eyebrow then. You attaching some Thai slant to it makes you a bigot and that is compounded by the fact that you've spent such a long time here.

Jaded much?

How's the snow up there on that 5000ft-high horse you're sitting on?

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You're kidding right? I believe that any post that shows respect to irrational beliefs in non-existent skygods is equally objectionable. Catholicism is a breeding ground for paedophile priests - objectionable maybe, true yes. Islam is the reason for a considerable amount of global terrorism - objectionable maybe, true yes. Religion is objectionable, not disrespect for it.
That said I respect your right to believe in your religion. Respect my right to believe your religion is a dangerous load of hogwash.

MILT, on 2012-02-10 20:32:35, said:

FFS. Please stop the anthropomorphization of animals. It's very annoying and not a very intelligent thing to do.

They're not 'evil'. They're not 'morons'. They are dogs. A dog is an animal and not a human. It does not understand human concepts, nor should it. If you find one that actually does, you'll become an instant millionaire (maybe the dog will.) They have no concept, at all, that by biting, barking, snarling, growling or attacking they are doing something 'wrong'. Wrong does not exist for a dog. You can train an animal to do a repetitive action, but it's only going to comply for food and/or affection. It does not and will never understand. There's no argument against this. Is is a fact.

There's no specific breed that attacks humans more than any other. The fact humans tend to breed Pitbull Terriers to be aggressive and for fighting, is where the problem lies.

It's also an irrefutible fact, that if you're going to place what is effectively a domesticated killing machine, in very close proximity to human beings, they are occassionally going to be incidents of one attacking the other. This is compounded by having more than one dog, as dogs have an instinctive 'pack mentality' they cannot stop.

The fault and irresponsibility lies with the humans in charge of dogs and how we use them. They are 100% to blame and should be held to account. This rarely happens as it's much easier to anthropomorphize and shift blame to an animal. It happens all the time.

It's not just Thailand that has issues with its citizens controlling their animals, it's a global problem. I've known many many Westerners that would use a dog as a weapon to threaten another.

It's very sad that someone has died as a result of a dog attack, but it isn't the first and won't be the last, if we insist on keeping them in such close proximity to us in their hundreds of millions, if not billions.

What's vastly more disgusting is people that mistreat dogs either through negligence or outright abuse. We're sentient, we understand and should know better. That sickens me to my stomach.

The only way to completely eradicate dog attacks on humans, would be for governments to ban all dogs as pets (which will never happen) and destroy every dog on Earth. Banning or exterminating specific breeds and applying these "dangerous dogs" tags is ineffective, as every dog, no matter the shape, size (aside from toy dogs), breed has and will attack humans for many varying reasons. It's just what they do. You don't believe a Golden Retriever, when reverting to its primal instincts, can kill a human? You're wrong.

The fact is from narcotics to bomb disposal, from earthquake rescue to providing the blind with a companion who sees for them, dogs are very imporant to us.

Humans are irresponsible.

Oberkommando, on 2012-02-11 09:28:35, said:

It's amazing you get up early on a weekend to Thai bash. What's wrong with you? No boom boom long time?

I'd say there's vastly more instances of 'Westerners' in their own countries having severe behavioural problems in general (London riots, unnecessarily heavy handed crackdowns on American protesters, the list goes on). Not to mention the hundreds of cases of animal cruelty and abuse, which appear as frequently in Europe and America, as they do here.

In fact, one of the main reasons I love living here, is that Thais do know how to behave well in their own culture and country on the whole. They're much more reserved and polite as a generalization than Americans and Brits ever will be.

In Surat, I've left both of my front doors unlocked for 7 years, overnight, every night. No one has ever touched my house. I lived in a leafy garden suburb in north London in the 80s and 90s and my house was broken into more than 5 times.

How about you learn to behave and not post inflammatory comments about Thais on threads in future?

Every user needs to have control over this silly reputation thing.
For example, my profile currently tells me that I have a good reputation.

I don't wish to take part in this nonsense. I would prefer that any reference to 'reputation' in my profile, be removed.

I would only allow this 'reputation' thing if nobody can reduce the reputation. In other words, the reputation only goes up, not down. Is this how it works or not?

Could somebody who has authority, please completely explain how this reputation system works?

Then somewhere between page 2 and 3 of this thread, someone will proclaim all-knowingly that 'you can take the bargirl out of the bar but you can't.... etc.' and before the thread loses it's way somewhere on page 4, several will proclaim that 'their gf is different'; all this interspersed with feigned shock and horror about prostitution, flame deletions and warnings from mods and claims that even a happy marriage is a 'pay-as-you-go' experience.

My 2-bahts worth. Pay whatever YOU feel comfy with, bugger anyone else's ideas of what's fair or what's silly. I mean, would you front up to a complete stranger on the street and ask this question?

There you go, I thought not.

Jingthing, on 2010-07-28 22:41:45, said:

and they are different to young gay thai guys, how?

edit for:  On second thoughts JT, don't answer that