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What the two sides really most often represent is a difference in style of interaction with the modern global distribution food chain. Non-organic is most commonly a production line process using larger holding with a single crop at a time. Organic, especially permaculture designed organic, is more adept at raising mixed crops, with multiple tier/ layers of plants in an area... and often better suited to local consumption. That said the two sides are not equal as to long term effect upon topsoil.
Loong's comments above as to earthworms and soil aeration are correct. What generally happens is that the pesticides and herbicides that get added to non-organic farms end up killing either the beneficial organisms directly - or indirectly by removing their companion plants.
Fertilizer alone is also a problem as to soil development. Use of fertilizers have been shown to reduce long term health of soil.
http://grist.org/art...bon-undermines/
Head to head land comparrisons focused only on yields also show organic techniques outperform for fruits and vegetables, excluding grains, though after costs for chemicals, even grains become comparable.
Thailand is jumping into/ has joined a global economy that is trading short term profits for long term viability of its soil - on both hills and flat-lands. The importation of techniques and crops from temperate climates to grow under the sun and rain of Thailand is killing the soil, and leaving it exposed to near vertical sun and torrential rain that even if it were not killed by chemicals, leads to erosion and silted rivers.
Bottom line, picking between organic and non-organic is more consequential than just choosing between "apples or oranges"
Posts I've Made
In Topic: Thai Govt Called For Moving 2 Million People From Mountain Zones
2012-03-30 20:43:32
richard10365, on 2012-03-30 20:24:19, said:
I wonder how they will handle the loss of the Thai coffee market seeing how Thailand's Arabic coffee comes from most of the hill tribes.
Humans have longbeen horticulturalists - even before becoming agriculturalists. Analysis of distribution of plant varieties in the Amazon Basin shows humans there have long supported the reseeding of plants they found edible or beneficial. Doining it this way then removes the need for intervention irrigation or pesticides. The mixed established forest protects itself... and the valley below.
In Topic: Thai Govt Called For Moving 2 Million People From Mountain Zones
2012-03-30 20:10:22
mowgus, on 2012-03-30 11:04:19, said:
Forestry is a lot like the burning in the north (and sometimes the same). … They don't look any further than today. Floods? What floods...it's dry!
Agreed, yet many Thai in Bangkok now see the impact of poor oversight. Maybe that will be sufficient incentive to act responsibly this time. As also noted here:
bobmac10, on 2012-03-30 15:35:16, said:
the floods really frightened the sh#* out of everyone this time, and the economic damage to the economy might finally wake them up to the consequences of all the over clearing.
Yes the hill tribes are responsible for some but so are the generals and police colonels who have had access and ability to loot the teak forests for the past 50 years.
One thing is for sure, with expected climate change, the wet seasons could be much wetter and that means more floods unless they rehabilitate the headforests in the hills.
The idea of paying the hill tribes is a practical and cheap alternative to forced re-location.
I can remember the princess talking about the negative effects of overclearing thirty years ago, with demonstrations of clear streams running through pristine rainforests and muddy streams running through clear felled areas.
It's incredible that they didn't pay heed to her wise words.
Money the root of all evil.
Yes the hill tribes are responsible for some but so are the generals and police colonels who have had access and ability to loot the teak forests for the past 50 years.
One thing is for sure, with expected climate change, the wet seasons could be much wetter and that means more floods unless they rehabilitate the headforests in the hills.
The idea of paying the hill tribes is a practical and cheap alternative to forced re-location.
I can remember the princess talking about the negative effects of overclearing thirty years ago, with demonstrations of clear streams running through pristine rainforests and muddy streams running through clear felled areas.
It's incredible that they didn't pay heed to her wise words.
Money the root of all evil.
All good comments bobmac. We live in the valley near the headwaters of one of the named rivers. My wife lights up when she tells of the numerous clear springs that sprang from the surrounding hills during her youth – supplying clear water that was sweet and safe to drink. Sadly, this is no longer the case. Erosion and flooding starts high in the hills now – which are mostly teak farms and corn fields. Corn on hillsides is bad in general, but when the furrows are not along contour lines AND it is in the tropics where the sun and torrential rains quickly leach health from exposed soils, then corn is a disastrous crop. Though the teak forests are better, this is only marginally so because it takes intercropping of leguminous trees like tamarind to supply nitrogen - and it takes a truly mixed forest to have the diversity to maintain health during drought and rain – while feeding pollinators with different flowering plants through every month and season.
A fact about slowing runoff and getting water absorbed into the land to feed the water table… one can begin the principles of Permaculture (http://en.wikipedia....ki/Permaculture) in building swales on contour – beginning at the altitude on the hills where they shift from being convex hilltops to concave valley. Then anchor those swales and feed them by including canopy trees that also fix nitrogen. The actual sequencing and placement of trees to plant is referred to in the FORRU material I link to below – along with the overriding problem of requiring land to be “cleared” so as to claim it. (TommoPhysicist described that issue quite clearly.)
warmheart2010, on 2012-03-30 16:14:12, said:
Actually, work done by the Forest Restoration Research Unit at Chiang Mai University suggests that high quality forests can be restored very quickly and at low cost. Planting is not, as you suggest, the entire story, it is essential to provide residents with an improved quality of life where they live, not simply punish them for the poverty that has led to the low yield agriculture in which they are currently engaged. But certainly uprooting them from their homes and dumping them in lowland areas is no solution. Leave aside what it does to their lives, just where is the fertile farmland onto which they are going to be dumped? I cannot immediately identify any unclaimed expanses, and I suspect that their new neighbors whose land would have to be confiscated will also take a very dim view of this whole project. All in all, this is precisely the sort of (1) environment over people sort of project that urban environmentalists often think up and (2) Bangkok over the rural areas sort of project that politicians usually think up. Bravo and bravo again to the Minister for publicly and loudly writing this "solution" off. Don't waste money moving people; spend money (for the first time) on meaningful development for the minority communities of the headwaters areas. Help farmers move from land-extensive, low-value crops like corn and dry rice to land-intensive, high value crops like coffee and avocados. Trade high quality extension and complete supply-chain support for land retired for reforestation. Make a deal; don't just punish the innocent and do nothing to fix the long-term problem, because moving people will do nothing to restore the watersheds.
http://www.unep-wcmc...d%20highres.pdf
Though in searching for it I also found a video that introduces their project
In use of headwater forests - it is particularly urgent to understand that forest farms are not sustainable – and it is precisely the type of canopy generation and multiple species planting which FORRU is demonstrating as viable which needs to be understood by the citizenry and their leaders. Coffee and avocado plantations would add to the problems of a degraded forest.
One more topic being ignored – it is not solely the regional people who are moving into these areas. Our valley and hills are undergoing an influx of Thai from the Bangkok region. Indeed the floods have caused many to reconsider where to live – and this influx is also causing yet more trees to be cut to supply the traditional wood housing.
anterian, on 2012-03-30 16:58:15, said:
Primitive peoples have always destroyed the environment, England was once covered in ancient forests, now just a few tiny remnants remain. The Sahara desert was one the Roman granary. Legislation always fails in the face of human need and human greed. It is a battle that will never be won until we change the mindset of the people.
In Topic: High Waves Strike Southern Provinces, Tourists Stranded On Island
2011-12-26 22:33:06
michemiche, on 2011-12-26 16:14:09, said:
Thanks for posting the video Michemiche, though I wondered at times as to whether you risked having an errant wave prematurely end the video shoot. To all those along the affected shoreline - much sympathy is due. Anyone who has lived through a storm that threatened their home - or damaged/ destroyed it, knows the feelings of disruption and violation can linger. Our community suffered a flash flood last year that still has repairs uncompleted. Each of several major rains during this season's monsoons sent people to watching the river with greater interest. Bangkok residents will take years to release the hardships they've had this year. Thailand's kind weather has had more hardships added lately.
peter48, on 2011-12-26 16:28:00, said:
Looks like some people here are burying their heads in the sand ( even though its quite wet).
Fact, global temperatures are increasing, the ice caps are melting at a worrying and recently increasing rates and all this is in the scientific domain. All national governments went to Durban recently to come up with further ways to reduce man-made emissions which are affecting our systems. Respectfully, I would hope most people here are of sufficient education to recognise this ongoing problem or else why do we have all those specialists in all our universities across the globe researching these problems. I believe too these global changes are/ will affect the hotter regions of the world first because temperature increase has greater effect in places like far east rather than western Europe. Of course Thailand's problems this year could be a very big blip but I think its worth going with the scientists too.
Fact, global temperatures are increasing, the ice caps are melting at a worrying and recently increasing rates and all this is in the scientific domain. All national governments went to Durban recently to come up with further ways to reduce man-made emissions which are affecting our systems. Respectfully, I would hope most people here are of sufficient education to recognise this ongoing problem or else why do we have all those specialists in all our universities across the globe researching these problems. I believe too these global changes are/ will affect the hotter regions of the world first because temperature increase has greater effect in places like far east rather than western Europe. Of course Thailand's problems this year could be a very big blip but I think its worth going with the scientists too.
We agree on concern for the global issues. This storm is just one storm, it proves nothing... though the frequency of bigger weather events is worth noting. While I often disagree with Rick, he summarized well the data I've seen as to warming concentrating 1st towards the polar regions and on the volume of polar ice... except I'd disagree as to the peninsular region of Antarctica. And while Rick is correct that there are natural reasons that the earth is warming, he neglected the fact that the rate / amount of warming is greater than accounted for by natural factors alone.
So again thanks for the general reminder that future extreme weather events may not be as infrequent as the concept of a "50-yr event" implies.
In Topic: Teaching Of English To Be Ramped Up: Thailand
2011-12-19 20:22:18
anterian, on 2011-12-19 14:20:29, said:
Utley, on 2011-12-19 12:43:46, said:
There are many retired English speaking expats here in Thailand who would gladly teach conversational English at their local school on a volunteer basis..........oh, that's right - farangs with retirement visas can't get work permits and you can't do volunteer work in Thailand without one. My bad.
Some of us are even retired teachers
I'm a retired teacher, though of math and sciences.
I live in a rural area but near the district secondary school. This year my wife's youngest daughter is completing M6 there and hopes to be the first to enter college in her family (at least among 1st cousins, aunts or uncles.) To some extent she is better prepared in English than any of her classmates. She can hear and comprehend English at an elementary level, and she can read aloud with moderate fluency and good pronunciation. (That last was due to reading aloud the first three Harry Potter books with me. These books are available in both English and Thai and allowed her to slowly build her vocabulary too.)
That long introduction was for context. This year she hasn't been available to read much into book #4. Her focus and that of her friends has been in preparing for and taking the college exams. The sad part is that of the English teachers at her school, only one is able to carry on a decent conversation in English. I've even taken to correcting the homework lessons after her current teacher has corrected them - because the teacher's corrections are wrong about 5% of the time. I've similarly seen errors in printed study guides. What real support is there for students?
While many of the English teachers know grammar rules better than me, they are slow to speak except in pleasantries of greetings and very simple topics. To their credit, a few of these will push their abilities of conversation or question how to express something. These are rare exchanges - mostly on Sports Day or when meeting in the market. Why? Precisely for the reasons cited as to the rules against volunteering while on a retirement visa. As a teacher I know that sporadic visits of a volunteer will not provide language fluency. That takes ongoing prepared lessons, ideally while immersed in using the targeted language.
Things teachers could do to improve comprehension would be to download and copy the podcasts of some BBC or NPR broadcasts - which are often accompanied by transcriptions. The Thai ministry could even search for content and distribute it as approved lessons. If these were interviews, students could learn to parrot the tone and inflection of native speakers - yet at minimal cost increase. Fora greater cost, there are computer software language lessons that are interactive - which would greatly accelerate the use of the grammar and written language skills that many students have already acquired.
From such a point, it at least becomes imaginable to find students who would learn to be conversationally spontaneous and interactive. Sadly the most frequent access to dialog with native speakers of English remains in the hotels and tourist markets. These opportunities are not very accessible to those in rural areas, though for those in such locales the incentives to achieve fluency often succeed where all formal schooling has failed.
